NBA Elite 11 News Post

NBA Elite 11 OS Exclusive Video: Oklahoma City Thunder @ Detroit Pistons

06:00 PM - September 2, 2010 by Steve_OS

User vs. AI Video:

Our second NBA ELITE 11 gameplay video features more 5 on 5 action with NBA ELITE Gameplay Producer Novell Thomas taking on a CPU controlled Oklahoma City Thunder. The game is played on a pre-final build on All Star difficulty. Check out REAL AI in action as Kevin Durant attacks the basket with sequences that he recorded himself. You will be seeing more of these videos leading up to the demo.

In NBA ELITE 11 you're in control.

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Member Comments

# 361 mrprice33 @ 09/04/10 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawgthem


	I feel like your straying further and further from your initial statement simply because your talking to a mod honestly

Tell me what my initial statement was.

# 362 mrprice33 @ 09/04/10 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawgthem


	FIrst off i knows its none of my business but when he replied to your statement you went all commando defensive and kept touching on the his title of being a mod like he was Christ himself or somethin...... second your intital statement if i'm correct we were talking about the intial concept of canned animations not rebounding you just went off track when 23 said something about rebounding thats when i started saying what cause you lost focus on the subject........... and my question to because of one of your statements about animation was so you don't care about variety in animations and you do realize thats one thing that could hender sells

So my initial statement was that canned animations are bad, and I'm still talking about canned animations being bad, yet I've changed my stance? Interesting.

# 363 mrprice33 @ 09/04/10 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawgthem


	No young man,..you WENT from me and you sharing our opinions about what is a canned animation and you giving the strong vibe that you didn't necessarily care about variety in animation in Elite as long as the gameplay is good to you boasting your ego and in some sort of argument with 23

I'm not incapable of holding varying conversations with more than one person at a time.

It's none of your business, and now we're derailing the thread. Enough.

# 364 PRAY IV M3RCY @ 09/04/10 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrprice33


	Of course. That's why I said IF the devs live up to their promises, it sets a new standard for control and player interaction in a basketball game. Visually it's not going to be there yet because they have stripped away a lot of the animations (at least in certain areas) in favor of control (or at least, that's what they're saying). Hopefully, if it all works out, new, better animations will replace the old ones (especially in dribbling packages) and we'll get a game that looks as organic as it (hopefully) feels. The first NHL that used this type of system had pretty much every guy handle the stick in the same way, so as to create consistency for users input across the board. Once that consistency is established, it's time then to start loading the animations onto the system to create variety.

thats what i dont get. How are they going to implement "canned" animations into this system. Think about it. I think there is a certain ceiling for this whole RTP feature. Thats what makes it so fustration. It makes the game generic, so hoping that next year, they can add more animations, , but they are VERY limited in making the game LOOK better as far as animations go. So i guess the only think they can do, is to invest time into making their RTP engine better, and that is going to take awhile

# 365 mrprice33 @ 09/04/10 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PRAY IV M3RCY


	thats what i dont get. How are they going to implement "canned" animations into this system. Think about it. I think there is a certain ceiling for this whole RTP feature. Thats what makes it so fustration. It makes the game generic, so hoping that next year, they can add more animations, , but they are VERY limited in making the game LOOK better as far as animations go. So i guess the only think they can do, is to invest time into making their RTP engine better, and that is going to take awhile

The defensive guessing mechanic seems to be a good indicator of where they are going. In guessing which way the ballhandler is going to go, you open yourself up to slipping (itself a canned animation) due to poor user decision-making (jumping the wrong way, jumping back and forth, etc). Similarly, the hop step done directly into a defender should give either a charge or a straight turnover. Some of these might be canned (especially the turnovers), but they are caused by poor user decision making. As long as the user's input has a direct bearing on the results of the animation (which was NOT the case with live 10) then the control should still be there.

# 366 HMcCoy @ 09/04/10 04:01 AM

I honestly didn't come into this with much expectation, but this looks OK to me. Broadcast view, a few slider tweaks and game speed adjustments will probably suit me better. Overall it seems this is going to feel alot like Live 04 on steroids. It'll be a real nice change of pace.

# 367 noshun @ 09/04/10 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrprice33


	Sales mean bupkiss.

The name change from Live to Elite 11 says

, we changed names due to sales and reputation.

# 368 mrprice33 @ 09/04/10 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noshun


	The name change from Live to Elite 11 says , we changed names due to sales and reputation.

Selective quoting is awesome.

"Yeah, a lack of variety of animations could hinder Elite's sales for sure. If it plays well, why would you care? Live was killing 2K in sales from 2001-2006, all the while having the inferior game. Sales mean bupkiss."

# 369 btrapp @ 09/04/10 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrprice33


	And last year with less control all they did was run run run and shoot 3s. Basketball games, like pretty much every other sports game, are ruined by online randoms. This goes for both games, and pretty much every genre. People are totally going to take this the wrong way, but animations are overrated, imo. If you look at a game like UFC 2009, that game had a great stand up and a ridiculously deep ground system. The systems had depth in terms of control and feedback, even though pretty much every guy had the same basic animations for punching, kicking, submissions, etc. There were occasional signature animations (mostly in submissions, I think), but the meat of that game was the depth of the actual play, and the different strategic and skill permutations that could exist. IF Elite lives up to the promise of the developers (and that we won't know for at least another few weeks), we could have something similar here, where it's not necessarily how the moves look and whether or not Jameer Nelson has the same crossover as Chris Paul, but whether or not the depth of the control allows me to properly set the defender up and get to my spot in the way an actual NBA player does, even if the animations that play out don't necessarily look how they should. That's where this game could shine.

I see what your point is, but the animations in ufc undisputed 2009 were MUCH better than the ones in nba elite. If elite had animations like ufc undisputed 2009, no one would be complaining. The main problem with elite's animations isn't necessarily the signature stuff, but the fact that even the basic stuff like dribbling, running, and rebounding seem to be out of wack.

# 370 FearlessKaz @ 09/04/10 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by btrapp


	I see what your point is, but the animations in ufc undisputed 2009 were MUCH better than the ones in nba elite. If elite had animations like ufc undisputed 2009, no one would be complaining. The main problem with elite's animations isn't necessarily the signature stuff, but the fact that even the basic stuff like dribbling, running, and rebounding seem to be out of wack.

This is the sole reason why the "we had to sacrifice animations for better control" argument doesn't sit well with me and a lot of others.

There's no excuse for the way the players run up and down the floor in such an unnatural way, or why the defensive stances look so awkward and stiff.

What makes it so frustrating is, this is stuff the community has been complaining about for years and it continues to go unchanged, or in some ways, get worse than it was before.

This is the stuff that should have been set up as a foundation for the series and then improved upon each year. It seems like EA is content on taking a backwards approach and trying to sell us on other things instead of addressing these issues though.

# 371 ffpp @ 09/04/10 09:29 AM

I can't be optimistic about this release.
I mean, usually the developers, the 'public guys' tend to talk about any feature that they think could be at least on par with the competition. Just to talk their product up and advertise it. But all I've read about Elite11 is the developers talking about the new control scheme and the real-time physics. They always threw in the same fluffwords like 'take control' 'no canned two-man animations' like these would be the answer to everything.

On a sidenote, the 2player animations are an issue in 2k9 (don't have any other) but they aren't even that bad. They annoy me like 2 times during 3 games with 12 min quarters.
What makes a bball video game good are also team mechanics, movement, a realistic pace of the match and a pace that also changes realistically during the course of it.

I read from the 2k devs how they not only beef up a new feature from last year, they also introduce this whole classical Jordan-theme which so far seems to be really comprehensive. On top of that they also talked extensively about significant gameplay changes.
I'm not saying that this means 2k11 will be really the greatest game ever. But the devs saying so (indirectly) with a lot of confidence at least seems a bit promising. The EA marketing has almost been completely the opposite of this. They almost had to be forced to release some gameplay footage at last aside from screenshots.

I think it would have been a lot better if EA had allowed their development team to take a break from the usual release cycle and don't sell a game this year. If the devs could have worked for two years straight without the interruption of the pressure of the currently release they would have had the chance to include a lot more polish. Now they just throw their 2 new features out there on the market within a (maybe) otherwise totally inferior game and the buyers are like beta testers for these two features who don't even get paid.

But I somewhat know this from EA already that they like to introduce new features but leave old flaws untouched and for me many of their games became stale and boring just in time for the next release.

# 372 mrprice33 @ 09/04/10 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by btrapp


	I see what your point is, but the animations in ufc undisputed 2009 were MUCH better than the ones in nba elite. If elite had animations like ufc undisputed 2009, no one would be complaining. The main problem with elite's animations isn't necessarily the signature stuff, but the fact that even the basic stuff like dribbling, running, and rebounding seem to be out of wack.

But again you're talking about the look of the animations. While that is an important part of any sports game, it's a small piece of the overall pie. To me the look of the game is secondary to the play. It remains to be seen whether or not the play holds up, though.

Sent from my HTC EVO 4G using Tapatalk.

# 373 OGKing @ 09/04/10 09:57 AM

You know what? This looks like a decent NBA game, not my #1 option to buy, but it seems very fun, it has it's flaws but i think i might give it a shot.

# 374 Boilerbuzz @ 09/04/10 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomymac23


	Not for sure if this was mentioned or not but the refs don't move at all and there are only two of them. When did the NBA change to two refs that just turn from looking one way to the other. That's terrible in itself. This is next gen and thats what we are subjected to. LOL funny stuff man. No competition this year sorry "Elite" is mediocre at best!

Yes, this was mentioned already.

# 375 Boilerbuzz @ 09/04/10 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrprice33


	But again you're talking about the look of the animations. While that is an important part of any sports game, it's a small piece of the overall pie. To me the look of the game is secondary to the play. It remains to be seen whether or not the play holds up, though.

This discussion, which I think in general is a good and pertinent discussion here, continues to get derailed from "control versus function" to "control versus look" and I think it's being done to justify one's argument for control. Who here would try to argue looks over gameplay? For guys like Da_Czar and 23, the issue focused on the lack of animations that reflex the physical limitations of the human body in motion. The fact that the result is ugly in their opinion is just frosting on the cake. But the 'cake' is function and function IS gameplay. I don't think anyone can rightly defend the lack of function and the breaking of reality in a 'sim' game as a universally acceptable compromise.

Then we come to the misnomer of "canned" and "2p" animations being made into this pariah. This is the fact about canned animations: if you do not dynamically manipulate or create a single instance of an animation during playback, then it is by definition "canned". If you build a system that smoothly changes animations based on input and events in the game, that doesn't make the animations "uncanned". THIS is what Elite is doing as I understand it. It's not forcing you to start AND FINISH every animations. This is outstanding, but this is not new and that's fine. It may be new to EA basketball, but it's not new. It may have been taken to another level. And that seems to be too far for some people. The concept of branching and interrupting animations has been around for a long time. But to claim that having canned animations is a bad thing is silly. Almost every animation in almost every game (save few tech demos posing as games) is canned.

But I don't want to detract from the main discussion. Being able to interrupt animations is awesome. Hands down. Giving you as much control as you can stand. But not every animation can be interupt-able. How about that "ankle-breaker" animation that played on the user (3:47 first video)? Do you think the user could interrupt or control that? Sure, his actions triggered it. But once it started, he had to wait until it was done. It was not interrupt-able and therefore, using the adopted meaning given: it is a canned animation. But that animation is MORE than fine. No one complained about anything but the context in which it played. How about ball pickup animation? Do you think any of them are interrupt-able? Rebounds? Not interrupt-able. And none of them NEED be! And these are key animation groups in the game. So to argue that "canned animations are bad" is misplaced.

Same for 2p animation. I can start a long thread on this one in of itself. But having a 2p animation DOES NOT, I repeat, DOES NOT, preclude you from interrupting or branching from any of the animations playing on the 2 actors. If I have a problem with any decision made in Elite, it was the decision to just remove 2p animations all together instead of adopting them into the control system. But I won't sit here and try to argue the merits of 2p animations or question EA's decisions. It's their game and they know what's best for their game. If they feel it was the right decision for their game, who am I to say otherwise. I just think the anti-2p animation mantra building here is misguided though.

# 376 Jakeness23 @ 09/04/10 02:07 PM

Yeah, EA should definitely give up NBA basketball and stick to football, baseball, and hockey because after watching these vids and seeing all that 2K is doing, it's not even kind of close. 2K will dominate sells, graphics, gameplay and everything in between this year. EA will lose more money than they make with their basketball series, or if they happen to make a profit, it won't compare to 2K. Sorry Live/Elite, I actually was kind of hoping I would like it this year, but it's a no-go.

# 377 lebron6_james @ 09/04/10 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boilerbuzz


	This discussion, which I think in general is a good and pertinent discussion here, continues to get derailed from "control versus function" to "control versus look" and I think it's being done to justify one's argument for control. Who here would try to argue looks over gameplay? For guys like Da_Czar and 23, the issue focused on the lack of animations that reflex the physical limitations of the human body in motion. The fact that the result is ugly in their opinion is just frosting on the cake. But the 'cake' is function and function IS gameplay. I don't think anyone can rightly defend the lack of function and the breaking of reality in a 'sim' game as a universally acceptable compromise. Then we come to the misnomer of "canned" and "2p" animations being made into this pariah. This is the fact about canned animations: if you do not dynamically manipulate or create a single instance of an animation during playback, then it is by definition "canned". If you build a system that smoothly changes animations based on input and events in the game, that doesn't make the animations "uncanned". THIS is what Elite is doing as I understand it. It's not forcing you to start AND FINISH every animations. This is outstanding, but this is not new and that's fine. It may be new to EA basketball, but it's not new. It may have been taken to another level. And that seems to be too far for some people. The concept of branching and interrupting animations has been around for a long time. But to claim that having canned animations is a bad thing is silly. Almost every animation in almost every game (save few tech demos posing as games) is canned. But I don't want to detract from the main discussion. Being able to interrupt animations is awesome. Hands down. Giving you as much control as you can stand. But not every animation can be interupt-able. How about that "ankle-breaker" animation that played on the user (3:47 first video)? Do you think the user could interrupt or control that? Sure, his actions triggered it. But once it started, he had to wait until it was done. It was not interrupt-able and therefore, using the adopted meaning given: canned. But that animation is MORE than fine. No complained about anything but the context in which it played. How about ball pickup animation? Do you think any of them are interrupt-able? Rebounds? Not interrupt-able. And none of them NEED be! And these are key animation groups in the game. So to argue that "canned animations are bad" is misplaced. Same for 2p animation. I can start a long thread on this one in of itself. But having a 2p animation DOES NOT, I repeat, DOES NOT, preclude you from interrupting or branching from any of the animations playing on the 2 actors. If I have a problem with any decision made in Elite, it was the decision to just remove 2p animations instead of adopting them into the control system. But I won't sit here and try to argue the merits of 2p animations or question EA's decisions. It's their game and they know what's best for their game. If they feel it was the right decision for their game, who am I to say otherwise. I just think the anti-2p animation mantra building here is misguided though.

Agree 100%, boiler you nailed it. great post, man.

# 378 Jamesmaster @ 09/04/10 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FearlessKaz


	This is the sole reason why the "we had to sacrifice animations for better control" argument doesn't sit well with me and a lot of others. There's no excuse for the way the players run up and down the floor in such an unnatural way, or why the defensive stances look so awkward and stiff. What makes it so frustrating is, this is stuff the community has been complaining about for years and it continues to go unchanged, or in some ways, get worse than it was before. This is the stuff that should have been set up as a foundation for the series and then improved upon each year. It seems like EA is content on taking a backwards approach and trying to sell us on other things instead of addressing these issues though.

You pretty much summed up my thoughts and those of lots of other people.

To focus on controls and not on animations or other aspects is 1 thing, but the way this game looks and moves it unacceptable for this generation of consoles. The more I watch these videos, the more it becomes clear to me that the animations have become WORSE than in previous games and the animations haven't exactly been Live's strongest aspect. This is beyond me.

Didn't EA say that they took the strong points of Live 10 as a template for this game? Then why do the animations look WORSE, why does it seem like the player shots look all the same?

I really like the fact that the devs put a lot of effort into answering questions over here but I honestly wonder what it took those guys to believe that people would like this.

# 379 stepsix @ 09/04/10 04:19 PM

This is a great post - you obviously know something about the industry. If I may, I'd like to elaborate on why we killed all two man animations, and why personally I've never liked them since their inception.

When you play a single man animation, it is played out based on the speed and facing of the player who is playing the animation. The new animation then 'takes over' his speed and will modify his speed and direction based on the content of the anim. A big task is trying to get anims to match player speed and facing to ensure smooth transitions

The same rules apply to two man anims, but the problem is you have only so much anim budget (memory being limited on the console), so there is no way that you can all entries into the two man anim given the two players can face whatever direction you choose. The result is: one player matches the original motion capture, and the other player gets 'suctioned' into the two man anim. You really can't escape this. this results in a major loss of control and sliding. For one of the two players it usually feels good (but you are still susceptible to my proceeding point), but for the other player involved, you will usually slide into position and perform an action that you never asked for.

Tied into the first point, once the two man anim starts, the second player doesn't have a say in whether or not he is involved. Once it starts, you are committed until a branch point is hit (you CAN just break it out, but it will usually look terrible). Once you're in the anim, it is then looking to branch to various two man outcomes, already predetermined by the initial motion capture via dice roll or in the best circumstance, stick input. This is the other major reason I never liked two man anims - once the players are locked together, yes it will play out visually well, but it will always play out in one of the pre-determined outcomes, and once you play a game enough, this gets predictable and visually stale. All of the highlight videos are going to look similar because there are only so many outcomes.

As soon as you completely detach the players, you move into the realm of both dynamic outcomes, and being in control the whole time. A side effect is definitely less choreographed gameplay (most notably in some limb clipping, and to a lesser extent players not facing in as precise a direction as with a two man anim), but when you try the demo you will know what I'm talking about.

# 380 blingballa333 @ 09/04/10 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stepsix


	This is a great post - you obviously know something about the industry. If I may, I'd like to elaborate on why we killed all two man animations, and why personally I've never liked them since their inception. When you play a single man animation, it is played out based on the speed and facing of the player who is playing the animation. The new animation then 'takes over' his speed and will modify his speed and direction based on the content of the anim. A big task is trying to get anims to match player speed and facing to ensure smooth transitions The same rules apply to two man anims, but the problem is you have only so much anim budget (memory being limited on the console), so there is no way that you can all entries into the two man anim given the two players can face whatever direction you choose. The result is: one player matches the original motion capture, and the other player gets 'suctioned' into the two man anim. You really can't escape this. this results in a major loss of control and sliding. For one of the two players it usually feels good (but you are still susceptible to my proceeding point), but for the other player involved, you will usually slide into position and perform an action that you never asked for. Tied into the first point, once the two man anim starts, the second player doesn't have a say in whether or not he is involved. Once it starts, you are committed until a branch point is hit (you CAN just break it out, but it will usually look terrible). Once you're in the anim, it is then looking to branch to various two man outcomes, already predetermined by the initial motion capture via dice roll or in the best circumstance, stick input. This is the other major reason I never liked two man anims - once the players are locked together, yes it will play out visually well, but it will always play out in one of the pre-determined outcomes, and once you play a game enough, this gets predictable and visually stale. All of the highlight videos are going to look similar because there are only so many outcomes. As soon as you completely detach the players, you move into the realm of both dynamic outcomes, and being in control the whole time. A side effect is definitely less choreographed gameplay (most notably in some limb clipping, and to a lesser extent players not facing in as precise a direction as with a two man anim), but when you try the demo you will know what I'm talking about.

And the demo will be released this coming Thursday, right?

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