NBA Elite 11 News Post

NBA Elite 11 OS Exclusive Video: Oklahoma City Thunder @ Detroit Pistons

06:00 PM - September 2, 2010 by Steve_OS

User vs. AI Video:

Our second NBA ELITE 11 gameplay video features more 5 on 5 action with NBA ELITE Gameplay Producer Novell Thomas taking on a CPU controlled Oklahoma City Thunder. The game is played on a pre-final build on All Star difficulty. Check out REAL AI in action as Kevin Durant attacks the basket with sequences that he recorded himself. You will be seeing more of these videos leading up to the demo.

In NBA ELITE 11 you're in control.

Game: NBA Elite 11Reader Score: 2/10 - Vote Now
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Member Comments

# 381 stepsix @ 09/04/10 04:43 PM

Lol how the AI plays, in my hands - demo release date? Not so much. I don't think it's this week tho, probably at least 2 - 3 weeks out (this is not quotable as I honestly don't know).

# 382 tybud @ 09/04/10 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stepsix


	This is a great post - you obviously know something about the industry. If I may, I'd like to elaborate on why we killed all two man animations, and why personally I've never liked them since their inception. When you play a single man animation, it is played out based on the speed and facing of the player who is playing the animation. The new animation then 'takes over' his speed and will modify his speed and direction based on the content of the anim. A big task is trying to get anims to match player speed and facing to ensure smooth transitions The same rules apply to two man anims, but the problem is you have only so much anim budget (memory being limited on the console), so there is no way that you can all entries into the two man anim given the two players can face whatever direction you choose. The result is: one player matches the original motion capture, and the other player gets 'suctioned' into the two man anim. You really can't escape this. this results in a major loss of control and sliding. For one of the two players it usually feels good (but you are still susceptible to my proceeding point), but for the other player involved, you will usually slide into position and perform an action that you never asked for. Tied into the first point, once the two man anim starts, the second player doesn't have a say in whether or not he is involved. Once it starts, you are committed until a branch point is hit (you CAN just break it out, but it will usually look terrible). Once you're in the anim, it is then looking to branch to various two man outcomes, already predetermined by the initial motion capture via dice roll or in the best circumstance, stick input. This is the other major reason I never liked two man anims - once the players are locked together, yes it will play out visually well, but it will always play out in one of the pre-determined outcomes, and once you play a game enough, this gets predictable and visually stale. All of the highlight videos are going to look similar because there are only so many outcomes. As soon as you completely detach the players, you move into the realm of both dynamic outcomes, and being in control the whole time. A side effect is definitely less choreographed gameplay (most notably in some limb clipping, and to a lesser extent players not facing in as precise a direction as with a two man anim), but when you try the demo you will know what I'm talking about.

stepsix i understand everything you said in your post but theirs one thing that i disagree with. you stated with 2 player animations the game gets stale after a while because you see the same two player animation over and over, but with system that u guys implimented seems more stale because the players are all the same and theres not alot of animation in the game as for as seen. yeah plays may play out differently in your system but the animations used are going to get just as old as if it where a two player animation. i hope i explaining myself correctly. yeah its a good thing that your not stuck in an animation, but at the same time we need to see more animations or that will get stale just as fast. correct me if im wrong.

# 383 stepsix @ 09/04/10 05:32 PM

Re: dribble moves, there is big vs not big, but there are no sizeups like last year. Visually sizeups were great and did differentiate players, but you are essentially charging up a dice roll by doing them. I find it much more satisfying to actually perform a size up with a sequence of moves and burn somebody because they guessed wrong. Ideally we could marry the two and have all of the moves player specific AND completely controllable, but for this year's implementation, the difference in player speeds combined with being able to do the moves in any direction from any speed really feel like nothing I've played before.

# 384 stepsix @ 09/04/10 05:59 PM

Sorry I'm on my phone so everything is going to have to be re:

Re: predictable outcomes, I think I might have mislead with my highlight comment; the amount of variety you see is a result of the number of animations in a game, how dynamically they can be modified, and the user/cpu requesting those anims.

With a two player sequence, once you are locked in, you are then constrained to a small set of outcomes. If you're not locked into that small set of outcomes, you are then capable of performing something out of the much larger set of moves than the one you are afforded in the scripted two man sequence. Let me know if I didn't explain myself well.

# 385 eDotd @ 09/04/10 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawgthem


	Why would they do something like that..thats crazy so are there no iso controls...i can't do a 1v1 on the court against someone when i call isolation

You can still size someone up. The only difference is that your not pressing/holding a button and getting a sequence of moves, you have to manually combine the moves.

# 386 stepsix @ 09/04/10 06:06 PM

You can still manually call an iso with a sequence of dribble moves, and because you're not forced to be on the same spot like you were when doing a size up, it's much easier to avoid getting the ball stolen.

Re: dribble moves, there is big vs not big, but there are no sizeups like last year. Visually sizeups were great and did differentiate players, but you are essentially charging up a dice roll by doing them. I find it much more satisfying to actually perform a size up with a sequence of moves and burn somebody because they guessed wrong. Ideally we could marry the two and have all of the moves player specific AND completely controllable, but for this year's implementation, the difference in player speeds combined with being able to do the moves in any direction from any speed really feel like nothing I've played before.

# 387 thcchoi @ 09/04/10 06:11 PM

The net moves even before the ball gets to the rim.

This was a well-known issue from day one and it STILL has NOT been fixed.

Please let us know when this problem will be fixed.

check out the vid between 0:40-0:46

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX7lokWY20M

Thanks

# 388 Boilerbuzz @ 09/04/10 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stepsix


	This is a great post - you obviously know something about the industry. If I may, I'd like to elaborate on why we killed all two man animations, and why personally I've never liked them since their inception. When you play a single man animation, it is played out based on the speed and facing of the player who is playing the animation. The new animation then 'takes over' his speed and will modify his speed and direction based on the content of the anim. A big task is trying to get anims to match player speed and facing to ensure smooth transitions The same rules apply to two man anims, but the problem is you have only so much anim budget (memory being limited on the console), so there is no way that you can all entries into the two man anim given the two players can face whatever direction you choose. The result is: one player matches the original motion capture, and the other player gets 'suctioned' into the two man anim. You really can't escape this. this results in a major loss of control and sliding. For one of the two players it usually feels good (but you are still susceptible to my proceeding point), but for the other player involved, you will usually slide into position and perform an action that you never asked for. Tied into the first point, once the two man anim starts, the second player doesn't have a say in whether or not he is involved. Once it starts, you are committed until a branch point is hit (you CAN just break it out, but it will usually look terrible). Once you're in the anim, it is then looking to branch to various two man outcomes, already predetermined by the initial motion capture via dice roll or in the best circumstance, stick input. This is the other major reason I never liked two man anims - once the players are locked together, yes it will play out visually well, but it will always play out in one of the pre-determined outcomes, and once you play a game enough, this gets predictable and visually stale. All of the highlight videos are going to look similar because there are only so many outcomes. As soon as you completely detach the players, you move into the realm of both dynamic outcomes, and being in control the whole time. A side effect is definitely less choreographed gameplay (most notably in some limb clipping, and to a lesser extent players not facing in as precise a direction as with a two man anim), but when you try the demo you will know what I'm talking about.

Thank you and what you say is absolutely true. The key is to carefully define your entry and exit/branch states well enough to strike that balance between coverage and resources. You also have other tricks you can play to give the illusion of total coverage and variety. But, again, I respect the decision to go in the direction you did. Thanks for responding.

# 389 pdawg17 @ 09/04/10 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clutch masta


	looks like a polished ps2 game.

That's only like the 200th time that "witty" comment has been made in this thread...try to be original next time...

# 390 23 @ 09/04/10 07:05 PM

Figured you would've know that man, seeing as the dribbling was changed, so were the things that came along with it.

# 391 Jano @ 09/04/10 07:05 PM

The ability to do size-up moves is still in the game Admiral but the actual motion captured sequences we saw last year are out.

Most likely took them out because those moves were a sequence of consecutive animations rather then a single set of moves the player could do.

# 392 blackngoldfan @ 09/04/10 11:16 PM

No ball/rim variations whatsoever. According to EA, the sticks are supposed to determine the accuracy of the shot, yet all I see is "Clanks" and "Swishes".

http://nbaelite.easports.com/videos?...-ImO6Coha6DV2r
Sorry. Won't embed.

# 393 mrprice33 @ 09/05/10 04:07 PM

The size up system, while looking very nice, was completely unrealistic and made no sense. It required almost no skill.

Now, the idea of a size up is still there, but you actually have to do the moves yourself and read the reactions of the defender. If you can get him to commit one way, you then chain into a move going the other way, and go to the basket. That's how a real size up works, not just holding a trigger for a few seconds then going.

Sent from my HTC EVO 4G using Tapatalk.

# 394 The 24th Letter @ 09/06/10 01:01 AM

Does it bother anyone else Durants sig in NBA JAM looks better than this one? lol

Matter of fact its the best ive seen in any game so far

# 395 rEAnimator @ 09/06/10 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boilerbuzz


	This discussion, which I think in general is a good and pertinent discussion here, continues to get derailed from "control versus function" to "control versus look" and I think it's being done to justify one's argument for control. Who here would try to argue looks over gameplay? For guys like Da_Czar and 23, the issue focused on the lack of animations that reflex the physical limitations of the human body in motion. The fact that the result is ugly in their opinion is just frosting on the cake. But the 'cake' is function and function IS gameplay. I don't think anyone can rightly defend the lack of function and the breaking of reality in a 'sim' game as a universally acceptable compromise. Then we come to the misnomer of "canned" and "2p" animations being made into this pariah. This is the fact about canned animations: if you do not dynamically manipulate or create a single instance of an animation during playback, then it is by definition "canned". If you build a system that smoothly changes animations based on input and events in the game, that doesn't make the animations "uncanned". THIS is what Elite is doing as I understand it. It's not forcing you to start AND FINISH every animations. This is outstanding, but this is not new and that's fine. It may be new to EA basketball, but it's not new. It may have been taken to another level. And that seems to be too far for some people. The concept of branching and interrupting animations has been around for a long time. But to claim that having canned animations is a bad thing is silly. Almost every animation in almost every game (save few tech demos posing as games) is canned. But I don't want to detract from the main discussion. Being able to interrupt animations is awesome. Hands down. Giving you as much control as you can stand. But not every animation can be interupt-able. How about that "ankle-breaker" animation that played on the user (3:47 first video)? Do you think the user could interrupt or control that? Sure, his actions triggered it. But once it started, he had to wait until it was done. It was not interrupt-able and therefore, using the adopted meaning given: it is a canned animation. But that animation is MORE than fine. No one complained about anything but the context in which it played. How about ball pickup animation? Do you think any of them are interrupt-able? Rebounds? Not interrupt-able. And none of them NEED be! And these are key animation groups in the game. So to argue that "canned animations are bad" is misplaced. Same for 2p animation. I can start a long thread on this one in of itself. But having a 2p animation DOES NOT, I repeat, DOES NOT, preclude you from interrupting or branching from any of the animations playing on the 2 actors. If I have a problem with any decision made in Elite, it was the decision to just remove 2p animations all together instead of adopting them into the control system. But I won't sit here and try to argue the merits of 2p animations or question EA's decisions. It's their game and they know what's best for their game. If they feel it was the right decision for their game, who am I to say otherwise. I just think the anti-2p animation mantra building here is misguided though.

Great post here, just wanted to clarify a couple of things...

You state that we're branching out of animations at any time which is a good thing, but that our animations are still canned. That is true for some systems, but for others the animations are dynamic (ie not canned) AND you can branch out of them at any time.

I've touched on that in other threads, but our use of layering of animation, our used of IK, our use of blending (not transitional blends but blending in parallel) and how these are all dynamic and driven through user input and physcis, is what we mean by getting rid of canned animations.

You're right, certain parts of the ankle breakers are canned, and that is intentional. The idea is to take you out of the play momentarily, so the loss of control there is for a very good reason.

The other comment was around 2 player animations.

When we talk about two player animations being bad, the baddness comes from the limited coverage you can have which forces players to be suctioned into position for them to play out, and the loss of control due to an inability to branch out of them.

Going with animations that are played in isolation on one player, but chosen based on the physics and the collision results with the other player, adds for many more combinations and permutations of animations to play out, allows for 3 and 4 players to interact at a time without increasing the memory requirements, and makes it much more natural and part of the system for the user to be able to break out at any time.

So I agree that canned animations and two player animations are not bad in and of themselves, but they are generally used in a way (in most games, not just Live) that makes them unresponsive and breaks the immersion and sense of control.

What we're doing in Elite, we feel, gives the user a much more realistic and satisfying experience.

But you can judge that for yourself when the demo drops.

# 396 2kfanatic @ 09/06/10 10:39 PM

Just please give us the control you want us to have while respecting the physical limitations of a human body and make it look realistic in terms of limitation.

# 397 Phreezy P @ 09/06/10 11:06 PM

Dang I feel sorry for these devs I don't know how they can put up with these trolls. I guess they're used to it.

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