08:13 PM - June 23, 2010 by Tha_KidNBA Elite 11 News Post
08:13 PM - June 23, 2010 by Tha_Kid
NBA Elite 11 Videos
Member Comments
# 181
Playmakers @ 06/27/10 02:44 PM
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I would love to see J.Kidd be more of a distributor....yes he does look for the open 3 more and i think that should play out in NBA Elite if he's wide open he'll take the shot but if someone is defending him Kidd's not going to shoot
He absolutely must have his feet set in order to be a threat.....I wish you guys could actually label some players SPOT UP SHOOTERS because that's exactly what he is now days.
I'm looking forward to seeing how all this turns out.....i would like to see this series return to the greatnest of years past.
# 182
SacKings1999 @ 06/27/10 02:44 PM
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The game is still an early build, they don't have sig jump shots, ratings, etc... so if ratings aren't in yet, would you rather see videos where everyone moves like Chris Paul after a few red bulls, or a modern day Patrick Ewing (not to be confused with Patrick Chewing).
Just relax, reanimator said that ratings / locomotion tunings etc... still need to be input.
Great video... very impressive YOY leap for Live/Elite.
I know someone else asked the question but I don't think I saw it answered, will the hand in the face animation still be in the game or will it be replaced by the jumping block that was demoed in the video?
I know someone else asked the question but I don't think I saw it answered, will the hand in the face animation still be in the game or will it be replaced by the jumping block that was demoed in the video?
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I clearly don't expect to see the final result right now, but I expect an honest depiction of what the end result will shape up to be...Maybe I'm wrong though, maybe this game speed or one similar to it, will be the final result. In addition to that, just from what I saw on the video, I'm losing interest in the game, I'm not happy about the speed, but thats just me. And I've been around here for years and I've been buying Live since the beginning, so I know how the hype up works and then the let down finishes. No skin off my back though. I was just stating my opinion. No need for you to run to the rescue. Its an opinion, that's all.
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# 186
SacKings1999 @ 06/27/10 03:02 PM
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I'm done with this one, it's way to early to be getting into this kind of stuff. You guys are right, I know it's a "demo" of sorts. I'm done with it until more info comes out. thanks for replying to my opinion and I look forward to seeing a reply from development in response to my question.
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On to your point:
- What I call point guard dominance in the AI is typically a result of the following two situations:
1)
* PG is going to usually bring the ball up the court
* With the ball in his hands, if the user isn't well positioned or provides a lane, then he's going to drive to the hoop
2)
* of all the guys on the floor, it's usually going to be the PG or the SG who takes the most 3s
* synergy does provide a catch and shoot tendency, as well as a spot up tendency
* when the ball carrier drives, if someone rotates and leaves someone open outside the arc who's got a fairly high catch & shoot rating (see D Fish), there's a good chance he'll get the pass, and then shoot, resulting in skewed stats.
I like your point about not shooting while guarded, I'm sure I can factor that into his tendency to catch & shoot.
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I think the CPU needs to have a philosophy programed in for each team that it tries to implement. I think it should be beyond the things that ratings and percentages allow. If the CPU had it as it's philosophy to play through Kobe (for instance) then even if Fisher has an opening wide enough that the ratings/AI calculated he should shoot he'd still have to factor in the teams philosophy.
Maybe there could be programing that allowed other shooters/players to go cold or some other negative effect if the team doesn't play according to it's game plan. That way if Fisher is continually left open and he takes the open shots, just like he should in real life, after 30 Fisher attempts Kobe or Gasol is out of rhythm. I am just saying there needs to be a reason to play realistically beyond just because the user likes it that way.
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I liked Playmakers idea though, that there should be a distinct rating for shooters categorized as spot up only or have the ability to shoot on the drive. Fisher is basically a strict "i'm spotting up and stepping into this shot in perfect rhythm" type of guy. It's VERY rare for him to shoot off balance or leaners etc. (at most he will take a strong side dribble off a pump fake and spot up again) Meanwhile, a guy like Nash can shoot in any position on any foot and so on.
Some guys also don't shoot heavily contested shots either (such as Kidd for example), while a Nash, Dwill, Cp3 can hit all types of shots and look to score.
I guess if they could somehow differentiate those type of guards a bit more..the ones who look to score and can score in multiple ways, and the ones that are more of distributors and shoot mostly when wide open and as spot up shooters. Not just guards, but other guys too.
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Now that I think about it, it might not be artificial to go cold if teammates are "shot out of the game". Lots of players go cold when they stand around watching someone else shoot. I am sure synergy provides enough info to calculate how often (such as every 5 minutes or whatever) each player shoots in real life. It could easily be set that if they don't get within range of this frequency they could go cold. Just a thought, but my focus is mainly there is a reason why Fisher doesn't shoot that often and if he can shoot at above 50% or even low 40's from 3 as long as know one is in his face it would behoove the Lakers to get him more shots in that situation. Wouldn't it?
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A lot of guys are good shooters, that's part of why they're in the NBA...doesn't mean you cater the whole offense around them. You don't see Toronto running everything to get Kapono open, or Utah ignores Dwill and Boozer so Korver can shoot everything. And he does take the shots he needs to. That Game 3 in Boston, LA realized that if Kobe sets the pick on Fisher, both defenders would cheat towards Kobe...that's when Fisher was able to muster just enough offense and knock down the big shots.
I think a lot of this "advanced" programming can come later...as long as the core mechanics and controls are there, it will open up a solid foundation to build on. We have to have realistic expectations too, and we are playing a video game after all. It's going to be a LONG TIME before we start seeing perfect AI and perfect attributes/tendencies in which the CPU plays like the real players and teams and coaches, know what I mean?
The last few posts in this thread underscore how difficult it is to program in all the subtle nuances of what happens during a basketball game.
The idea about their being a negative consequence of players not getting enough touches is very important.
He's starting to mature a little more in this regard, but we know that Andrew Bynum has a tendency to slack off on the boards and on defense if he's not getting enough looks on offense.
Artest will get itchy if he hasn't had a look in a while and this will increase his likelihood of jacking up an ill advised 3 when he does get the rock.
Farmar and Brown's defense and decision making improve immensely, when they get out and get a couple of dunks in transition.
Lamar will start boarding and blocking shots if he feels like the ref has jobbed him on a couple of calls in a row.
Getting all the A.I. controlled players(through the use of ratings and tendencies) to play with all of the real life nuances they possess, which are often antithetical to fundamentally sound, text book basketball, is the real challenge for developers.
I understand the need to optimize the hands on experience for the User, but that is only a part of the equation. The C.P.U. teammates and opponents need to be up to snuff as well.
The idea about their being a negative consequence of players not getting enough touches is very important.
He's starting to mature a little more in this regard, but we know that Andrew Bynum has a tendency to slack off on the boards and on defense if he's not getting enough looks on offense.
Artest will get itchy if he hasn't had a look in a while and this will increase his likelihood of jacking up an ill advised 3 when he does get the rock.
Farmar and Brown's defense and decision making improve immensely, when they get out and get a couple of dunks in transition.
Lamar will start boarding and blocking shots if he feels like the ref has jobbed him on a couple of calls in a row.
Getting all the A.I. controlled players(through the use of ratings and tendencies) to play with all of the real life nuances they possess, which are often antithetical to fundamentally sound, text book basketball, is the real challenge for developers.
I understand the need to optimize the hands on experience for the User, but that is only a part of the equation. The C.P.U. teammates and opponents need to be up to snuff as well.
# 197
Playmakers @ 06/27/10 06:06 PM
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I'm glad you guys are listening to feedback because in years past I didn't feel like the player ratings and tendencies were being looked at closely while the game was under development before being released.
Thanks for giving the player tendencies a hard look this year. I'm more into offline dynasty play and that's why CPU/AI tendencies are really important for me and I'm sure many other NBA Elite/Live supporters in the community.
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Fisher doesn't shoot a lot and drop 25+ points in real life, but given the right game situation he's a very capable shooter and scorer...so although it's unrealistic to see him do this in Live/Elite, at the same time you can't really blame the CPU for taking its opportunities if they're constantly there.
As long as they strongly look at the tendencies (back to what Playmakers said), i think it will be a strong step to obtaining better results.
But i really don't want them to incorporate some sort of artificial hot/cold streaks or psychological tendencies such as confidence and such because it will never be perfect and it will start leading to other problems.
I say one step at a time.
p.s.- speaking of confidence, it's one of the few problems hampering MLB The Show. They tried to incorporate pitchers confidence, but while it's a good idea on paper, you start seeing unrealistic/artificial drops or spikes in confidence where you see scrub pitchers transform into cy youn pitchers, while brass balled elite pitchers like Halladay get reduced to emo self destructive pitchers when they make 1 user controlled mistake etc.
I'm terrified of seeing similar problems in Elite, where if you take 3 shots in a row (even open ones) with a Luke Walton, and all of a sudden you can't score with Gasol if he goes 5 possessions without touching it, or if Kobe gets hot, doesn't mean all of a sudden you should stop shooting with him. Know what I mean?
It will also be too tall of a task to ask Devs to figure out how every player reacts in every situation with their own psyche and stuff
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