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Three Things MVP 05 Still Does Better

MLB 09: The Show has been out for over a month, and many baseball gaming enthusiasts have hailed the game as the best baseball video game ever. As a baseball elitist myself, there is no denying that the game is extremely impressive.

It has been five solid years since I have enjoyed a baseball game as much as this year's iteration of The Show. Because of this enjoyment level, I have found myself glued to my PS3 cultivating my Road to the Show career and running a somewhat successful Detroit Tigers dynasty.

Still, as with most sports games, the more time I have been able to spend with The Show, the more nagging issues I have run into. These issues have left me yearning for something more from a baseball title, something only MVP Baseball 05 was ever able to satisfy. Of course, MVP 05 is still held in high regards throughout the virtual baseball community, and is still being played religiously on both PC and consoles because of a very active modding community.

The point is, while The Show is a fantastic effort, it is still lagging behind MVP 05 in three very key areas. But, with a few small improvements to the 2010 version of The Show, MVP 05 can perhaps be retired for good.


One thing MVP still does better is the hitting.

Batting


MVP 05's Hitter's Eye and left stick influence mechanics were the best additions to video game baseball hitting ever. As someone who played high-level baseball, I can really appreciate just how well MVP implemented both of these mechanics into their final MLB title. The Show's guess pitch feature, coupled with the zone- and timing-based hitting schemes are adequate, but for seasoned MVP veterans, it feels as if crucial control is being taken out of your hands while at the plate.

Hitter's Eye vs. Guess Pitch

MVP's Hitter's Eye was a complete stroke of genius. Anyone that knows a lick about real-life hitting knows that the key to being successful is picking up the ball the moment it becomes visible. This technique is so crucial that pitchers have been taught to vary release points and arm angles in an attempt to hide the ball a fraction of a second longer from a hitter.

The Hitter's Eye picked up on this technique, giving pitchers who were more successful at hiding the ball in real life the ability to defy the Hitter's Eye within the game. Simply put, the Hitter's Eye added a critical layer to the pitcher/batter showdown that made for one of the most realistic batting experiences ever.

The Show 09's guess pitch feature poorly attempts to replicate hitting in the sport of baseball. For a title that prides itself on realism and authenticity, it boggles my mind why this feature makes it into the series year in and year out. There is no doubt that Major League batters may take a certain approach at the plate or sit on a pitch, but by no means do they ever "guess" as to what pitch is going to be thrown to them.

Hitting is about reading a pitch off the pitcher's hand and reacting accordingly. Even if Derek Jeter goes to the plate with the mindset of sitting on a fastball, he is not going to simply guess fastball, mentally lock into seeing a fastball, and then get some type of feedback that he guessed correctly as soon as the pitcher begins his wind-up. Guess pitch fails miserably to replicate actual hitting in baseball, and it has no place in baseball games released in 2009.

Left Stick Influence vs. Zone Hitting/PCI

What could be the most frustrating aspect of MLB 09's batting system is its zone hitting scheme. Just as the Hitter's Eye did, MVP 05's left stick hitting system raised the bar for video game hitting systems to another level. The beauty of the MVP left-stick system was that it accurately simulated a batter's arm extension and height through the hitting zone, which allowed you to influence your hit type.

In real life, proper hitting in the zone is all about timing and arm extension/retraction -- you pull the inside pitch and you go the other way with the outside pitch. If you were being pounded inside in MVP, you simply pulled your arms in by moving the left stick in the respective direction. If you wanted to take an outside pitch the other way, you aimed that way with the left stick and swung away. You did the same thing when trying to hit fly balls (pushed up on the stick) and ground balls (pushed down on the stick). You could also mix in a variety of directions for complete hitting freedom -- up and left for a righty on the left stick was equivalent to a fly ball to the left side of the field. What made this system even better was how organic it felt on the field; the game forced you to go with the pitch that was thrown to you, which meant no pulling outside pitches for moonshot home runs.

The big problem with The Show 09's zone based/PCI hitting scheme is that it does not feel like you have true 1:1 control over your batter's arm extension through the zone. The system seems almost entirely dependent on the timing of your swing to be successful, even on the higher difficulties. My issue with this approach to a hitting system is that control has been taken away from the user, a huge no no to me in sports games. I understand that the PCI is meant to act as a cursor-based hitting system, but it just does not work as fluidly as MVP's system.

I have not even mentioned that PCI is rendered almost completely useless because of the lack of depth perception that is factored into the trajectory of the pitch. For some reason, it is extremely difficult to pick up the break on a slider or 12-6 curve because of a lack of depth on the Y-axis. This may just be personal preference, but every pitch you face while batting seems to be thrown too straight in its trajectory. The resulting feeling does not feel natural, especially on breaking pitches low in the zone. The longer you play the game, the more you start to realize that by the time you are able to adjust your PCI, the pitch has been thrown past you. After three games in my franchise, I realized it was absolutely worthless to even use PCI because I was having far more success simply timing pitches that are grooved down the heart of the plate.

Complete Batting Failure

My biggest gripe with The Show's hitting system -- and something that makes absolutely no sense to me at all -- is that your fly ball, ground ball, pull and push influence is tied to the right stick. At what point did this decision make sense to SCE Studios San Diego?

This is just another aspect of hitting in The Show that takes control away from the user and creates a disconnect when at the dish. If I am a right-handed hitter and want to dig in to push an inside pitch to the right side of the infield, I should be able to do so. The way the hitting system is currently set up, you would have to guess that the pitch was going to be inside, and then before the pitch is thrown use your right stick to take the ball to the right side of the infield.

Sorry SCE, but that is just silly. I should be able to react to the pitch as it is being thrown to me, and if it is inside, be able to pull my hands closer to my body and push the ball to the right side of the infield.

SCE's hitting system feels too complicated for its own good and needs to get back to the "read and react" simplicity that made hitting in MVP feel so natural.

Base Running

Much like hitting, MVP 05's PiP base-running mechanic and analog slides were the the pinnacle of baseball running controls. Not since the days of RBI Baseball had gamers been able to advance around the diamond with such ease. Base running in MLB 09 is by far the game's weakest element.

Navigating the bases feels exceedingly clunky, often times leading to a human-controlled team literally giving outs to the CPU after the ball is put in play. As if the control scheme was not awkward enough, SCE throws in analog steals that borrow heavily from MVP but stops short of re-creating the magic EA's title was able to convey.

MVP 05 introduced one of the most simple and most effective running systems ever. By simply pressing the corresponding face button of the player you wanted to activate, you could advance and retreat players with ease. It was always extremely easy to identify the runner you wanted to control on the fly, and never in five years of dedicated playing did I ever mistakenly advance a runner I did not want to.

The steal system in MVP was also very user friendly, even if it utilized the same basic shoulder button lead mechanics that games had been using for years. Sliding via the analog stick in MVP was also extremely responsive, allowing you to perform six different slides to each base. Picking the correct slide for the correct situation was simple, and it created some highlight-reel moments at second, third and home. Best of all was the fact that you could break up double plays by going in cleats up or purposely sliding outside the basepath.

After playing MVP and appreciating just how good the game plays on the basepaths, The Show 09's controls are downright brutal. Attempting to select a player and advance him individually when the ball is put in play is unnecessarily complicated. The game requires you to contort your fingers between the right-analog stick, face buttons and triggers, while reacting on the fly. The result is an absolute mess. Add in an analog stick slide system that is extremely unresponsive, and you have an aspect of The Show that SCE Studios needs to completely reprogram.

I cannot be the only one wishing that the studio would just do everyone a favor and implement MVP's base-running system button for button. When a sports game establishes such a good precedent, there is nothing wrong with imitation.


Dynasty/Owner Mode

While MVP integrated both a fully fleshed out dynasty mode and owner mode, The Show presents us with a jumbled mess in its hybrid dynasty/owner mode offering.

Anyone who has ever played MVP 05’s owner mode understands just how deep it was. It was the first video game I have ever played that actually made you pay attention to your respective roster moves and player signings because every decision you made affected your financial bottom line. For the first time ever in a baseball game, you were able to forge a financial identity.

The game allowed you to run your club's finances the way you wanted to, even allowing you to build and upgrade a personalized stadium if you wanted to go that route -- I still miss Hank Scorpio Field. Everything in MVP 05’s owner mode revolved around building a winner, getting more fans, increasing income and then spending it however you deemed worthy. It was absolute bliss. All these elements, plus the menu navigation, player management and finance management were all extremely streamlined and user-friendly.

One of the main issues I have with The Show's dynasty mode is that while it implements aspects of both dynasty and owner modes, the complete package does not implement either mode extremely well. It is almost as if the developers were not quite sure what they wanted to do with franchise, so they created a super deep roster and transaction system and then patched a bunch of typical franchise and owner mode aspects to it (team bus anyone?).

The menus also are not streamlined, it is difficult to figure out how to manage your players, and why is my team always complaining that there is not a jacuzzi in the training room?

The Show 09’s franchise mode also fails because money has absolutely no meaning. Is your franchise struggling and in need of an expensive free agent? No problem, go take a loan out from the bank. There are absolutely no consequences for spending like the Yankees in the game, even if you are the Nationals. If there is anything to be learned from today’s real world sports economy, it is that there are spenders and small-market teams. MVP forced you to be careful with your spending or face complete economic failure. In fact, owner mode actually ended if you spent too many years in the red -- there were no government bailouts in MVP baseball in 2004, capitalism was alive and well.

I can see how this would not bother many gamers, and I will admit that it is not a game breaker, but after playing 10-plus years of MVP 05 owner mode, The Show’s franchise mode feels extremely shallow.


With all that has been said in this article, I think it is important to note that I feel The Show 09 is a very solid title. The game is my front runner for game of the year. And, if the game makes the changes I outlined above, it may finally be time to lacquer my copy of MVP 05 on a plaque and hang it next to my wedding picture.

2009 is a great year to be a baseball gamer, but 2004 was even better. As the Dropkick Murphys pointed out in the opening track of EA’s hardball gem, "Tessie is the royal ruler." There is no doubt in my mind that "Tessie" is synonymous with MVP 05.


MLB '09: The Show Videos
Member Comments
# 41 Brian SCEA @ 05/07/09 09:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsb13
It was supposed to simulate a hitter reading the seams of the ball (which happens in real life). I thought it was a good attempt but it just didn't quite cut it.
It is what it is, so some people will like it and others won't. Like a lot of features in sports games, this is an alternative way to play the game. Many people won't like being told the pitch type every time by color, but MVP shouldn't remove it just because other people don't like it. A game wouldn't have any features if that happened, for the same reason why there's more than one way to play the Show.

Any discussion about "remove feature A, put in feature B" is bound to end up going in circles when there are also people who would "remove feature B, to put in feature A".

If you want the most realistic type of hitting, use pure zone hitting. Guess pitch is for people who want guess pitch, there's no need to take that away from them just to please people who don't want it to exist. People have fun playing the game both ways including one vs. the other, and that's what counts.
 
# 42 whoady4shoady @ 05/07/09 09:12 PM
The hitting is much better in the Show, and I have no problems even on the hardest difficulty. I mean yes it is really hard, but there is nothing arcadey about it like MVP.
 
# 43 Gamit @ 05/07/09 09:15 PM
High Heat to me was better but thats another story
 
# 44 Bumble14 @ 05/07/09 09:26 PM
Just for clarification purposes, I have no problem hitting in The Show 09, so that is not why I wrote what I did about batting. If anything I find the hitting system to be too easy- currently batting .415 as a team in my dynasty on the 2nd hardest difficulty. With a tweaked slider set in MVP I always felt challenged when stepping to the dish, especially with scrub hitters.

SCEA can post as many facts as they want about their hitting system- the bottom line is that in my opinion, I feel as if user control is being removed in an effort to create a more statistically realistic experience. It's almost as if I can tell I am playing against cpu logic telling me what I can and can not hit as opposed to me making the adjustments on my own. I have run into multiple games where I am able to initiate the exact same hit variation/animation 4-5 times in a row just by nailing swing timing at a certain location.

My point was that MVP's system gave the user far more control to do what they wanted through the zone. The MVP system felt completely organic in that mid swing adjustments felt completely dictated by the users actions. When I play the Show, I feel like there is some kind of disconnect from my virtual batter. It's a difficult feeling to explain, but I think there are a lot of MVP 05 hitting fans out there who know where I am coming from.
 
# 45 Bumble14 @ 05/07/09 09:29 PM
Brian-

FYI- no disrespect is meant to you or your team at all on this, I still enjoy the heck out of your game :-)

As a complete baseball video game nerd, I just have to call it like I see it. I think a lot of gamers out there would love to see a completely left stick based hitting system implemented into your game- ditch PCI all together, and use the left stick as a hand/arm adjustment through the zone.

I'd also love to see the ability to open/close my stance, along with manually adjusting my plate distance return to the series. The more user control you can give to the gamer at the plate, the better.
 
# 46 Fetrey @ 05/07/09 09:42 PM
MVP 05 is totally overrated. It's basically a glorified arcade game with sim-style aesthetics. The AI was way too easy to exploit (even on the hardest difficulty) and the pitching was too easy, as well. I can easily get 15 K's a game in MVP 05 with the 5th starter in my rotation. Also...while hitting, any pitch up-and-in that you sit on is an automatic 420 foot homerun.

Hell.....MLB 06 The Show was better.
 
# 47 Bumble14 @ 05/07/09 09:51 PM
Play the PC version of MVP 05.

There's a reason it is still selling for $60+ on ebay these days.
 
# 48 gambler1180 @ 05/07/09 10:02 PM
I agree 100% and would also add that i wish the show would use a different pitching system. As bad a 2k is, I still love the pitching.

If they were to put the Hitting and base running from MVP with the Pitching of 2k9 and mix in everything else that the show has i would be in baseball video game heaven.
 
# 49 mmorg @ 05/07/09 10:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumble14
SCEA can post as many facts as they want about their hitting system- the bottom line is that in my opinion, I feel as if user control is being removed in an effort to create a more statistically realistic experience. It's almost as if I can tell I am playing against cpu logic telling me what I can and can not hit as opposed to me making the adjustments on my own. I have run into multiple games where I am able to initiate the exact same hit variation/animation 4-5 times in a row just by nailing swing timing at a certain location.
Usually if a professional baseball player is swinging on a tee (the exact same spot with the exact same timing) their swing is going to look the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumble14
Play the PC version of MVP 05.

There's a reason it is still selling for $60+ on ebay these days.
It's selling for that much because of the Mods. The vanilla version of the game was horrid. The modded version of the game was mediocre.
 
# 50 Cubfan @ 05/07/09 10:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art1bk
I completely agree with this entire Article. I would add that MVP still has way better fielding as well. Fielding in the show needs to be redone..
The fielding was redone. They take better angles to the ball. Anyway The Show has out done MVP baseball. MVP was to arcade like and MLB The Show is the real thing.
 
# 51 Super Glock @ 05/07/09 11:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fetrey
MVP 05 is totally overrated. It's basically a glorified arcade game with sim-style aesthetics. The AI was way too easy to exploit (even on the hardest difficulty) and the pitching was too easy, as well. I can easily get 15 K's a game in MVP 05 with the 5th starter in my rotation. Also...while hitting, any pitch up-and-in that you sit on is an automatic 420 foot homerun.

Hell.....MLB 06 The Show was better.
completely agree, MVP 05 cant hang with MLB 09 The Show and that is all there is to it, what a ridiculous thread!!!
 
# 52 floridagatorfan @ 05/07/09 11:23 PM
Completely disagree about the hitting. Hitting with just timing based made it way to easy to get hits. I prefer the show where there is a randomness that allows for blowouts and also really close pitchers duels.

Also, I think the hitters eye was a stupid gimmick and would not fit into the realistic approach in The Show. All you have to do is look for a color and it takes all the work out of hitting. In the show after playing for a long time I've started to pick up pitches and develop a better ability to pick up pitches. Basically what I got from the hitting part of this article was make it easier.
 
# 53 bkrich83 @ 05/08/09 12:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumble14
Play the PC version of MVP 05.

There's a reason it is still selling for $60+ on ebay these days.
I couldn't disagree more. I have the PC version of MVP 05, and feel it's the one of the most overrated games of all time. I think due to it's premature demise, people seem to place it in higher esteem than it should be.

I agree with the article on the baserunning, I hate the baserunning in the MLB series, imo, it's always beeen counter intuitive.

But to that end, I hated the hitting and pitching systems in MVP 05, particularly the hitting system, and I felt it's results were questionable at best. I love the fact that in The Show ratings matter, and there are a plethora of them. In MVP the hitting system, and ratings system felt way dumbed down. Power hitter up? Press up and inside and wait for an inside pitch. Whammo home run.

I also felt the franchise setup in MVP was ok, but not great, and somewhat simplistic.
 
# 54 bang911 @ 05/08/09 01:31 AM
Best OS blog ever! Seriously though, this game was so phenomenal. I have not seen a better hitting system still to this date!

Keep up the MVP love.
 
# 55 SoxFan01605 @ 05/08/09 02:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by srudoff
you forget the #1 thing that MVP will ALWAYS have over The Show....

Nostalgia

you sound like my dad talking about the Beatles or Stones

and great reply to Brian - "don't bother me with facts - my feelings may fly in the face of how you actually programmed the game, but they're my feelings so there"

C'mon...we don't need to take it there. I don't think that was the guy's intent and he even clarified to Brian that he does enjoy the game.

I think he was just making a statement that the facts of how it is intended or implemented don't change his opinion on how it feels to him as a user. While I have a completely different viewpoint than him, there's nothing wrong with him feeling that way.

As for the nostalgia comment, I 100% agree. I think this game and NFL 2K5 are the most overrated games I've ever played (and I loved them both...still play 2K5 too, btw). Getting "killed" in your prime is always good for ratings...lol.

The irony of it is, I'm not sure it was the best baseball game AT THAT TIME, let alone all time. It was innovative in some ways, and did SOME things better than other games. That was a good time for sports gaming though...lots of options to choose from. Each one (for the most part) offering something.

The thing is, I can probably take every relevant current game, and find a previous one in it's genre that had something the current one doesn't...nature of the beast. Doesn't mean it's better, though (IMO).
 
# 56 tril @ 05/08/09 03:29 AM
based on this article, Id say MLB 2K9, even though it has its issues, is closer to MVP05 than the SHOW 09.
wish I could find MVP05 on pc for cheap.
 
# 57 rckabillyRaider @ 05/08/09 04:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tril
based on this article, Id say MLB 2K9, even though it has its issues, is closer to MVP05 than the SHOW 09.
wish I could find MVP05 on pc for cheap.
 
# 58 Jackdog @ 05/08/09 05:03 AM
The only things I miss about MVP is the base running and being able to play in any ballpark you wanted to during a franchise. Classic ones included.
 
# 59 davewins @ 05/08/09 07:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rondoman
OK.

Pitching was WAY WORSE in MVP.

In MVP, you could paint the corners every single pitch, and the ptiching meter was wasy as hell. It made for some pretty boring games IMO.

Pitching was one of the things I hated about MVP for that reason. No pitcher in real life hits 95% of his pitches on the corners.
Agreed.

Pitching was the #1 reason why I couldn't enjoy any of the MVP games. In playing the game from 03 to 07 I seriously don't think I walked one batter unintentionally. Pinpoint location with every type of pitch.

If they fixed the pitching so it was more rating based like SCEA is then that game would of been 10X better IMO.
 
# 60 k_bassuka @ 05/08/09 08:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmorg
This is wrong on all accounts. You say you played on a high level of baseball but consider MVP's hitting mechanics and batters eye feature superior to The Show? How do you figure?

I played Semi-Pro and College ball and I never remember the baseball flashing different colors based upon what type of pitch was coming. I also never remember adjusting my swing to hit a fly ball or ground ball. If I wanted a fly ball I looked for a pitch up in the zone, and by swinging at a pitch up in the zone you have a better chance hitting a fly ball because that is how baseball works. This is the way it is in The Show.

MVP was a mediocre baseball game at best though they did do some great things with control schemes.
Maybe that’s the reason you didn't make it to The Show, LOL.fficeffice" />>>
>>
I consider an expert on both games and have mastered both, MVP was easier to master but far more realistic than The Show specially when you took the field, from the time the ball was put into play to the time you threw the ball you were in control of the player unlike The Show and their ridiculous in game animations. I miss throwing home then hit a button to cut the ball and get the runner going to second instead.>>
>>
After you master The show is even worst than MVP my record stands at 82-12 some of those loses were due to sim games at the end and because of those balls that my fielder decided to let go through their legs on double play situation and in the OF. Through 94 games I have 4 players on the team with over 40 HR, all players have 15+ even the bench guys and my team ERA is under 3. All this while playing on Legend, it happened the same thing on last year version. The pitching meter is useless in The show 09 even worst than the 08 version, you don’t even have to move the ball location and attempt to hit the corners and strikeout 10+ batters and throw perfect games, maybe its just me but that’s not realistic at all. The hitting is the same way, just like MVP you could sit on a high and inside pitch on The Show you can sit on a down the middle of the plate fastball or off-speed pitch. This and the really bad fielding made me stop playing baseball games as of right now. Boy can't wait for football season to start and The Show '10.>>
 


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