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Three Things MVP 05 Still Does Better

MLB 09: The Show has been out for over a month, and many baseball gaming enthusiasts have hailed the game as the best baseball video game ever. As a baseball elitist myself, there is no denying that the game is extremely impressive.

It has been five solid years since I have enjoyed a baseball game as much as this year's iteration of The Show. Because of this enjoyment level, I have found myself glued to my PS3 cultivating my Road to the Show career and running a somewhat successful Detroit Tigers dynasty.

Still, as with most sports games, the more time I have been able to spend with The Show, the more nagging issues I have run into. These issues have left me yearning for something more from a baseball title, something only MVP Baseball 05 was ever able to satisfy. Of course, MVP 05 is still held in high regards throughout the virtual baseball community, and is still being played religiously on both PC and consoles because of a very active modding community.

The point is, while The Show is a fantastic effort, it is still lagging behind MVP 05 in three very key areas. But, with a few small improvements to the 2010 version of The Show, MVP 05 can perhaps be retired for good.


One thing MVP still does better is the hitting.

Batting


MVP 05's Hitter's Eye and left stick influence mechanics were the best additions to video game baseball hitting ever. As someone who played high-level baseball, I can really appreciate just how well MVP implemented both of these mechanics into their final MLB title. The Show's guess pitch feature, coupled with the zone- and timing-based hitting schemes are adequate, but for seasoned MVP veterans, it feels as if crucial control is being taken out of your hands while at the plate.

Hitter's Eye vs. Guess Pitch

MVP's Hitter's Eye was a complete stroke of genius. Anyone that knows a lick about real-life hitting knows that the key to being successful is picking up the ball the moment it becomes visible. This technique is so crucial that pitchers have been taught to vary release points and arm angles in an attempt to hide the ball a fraction of a second longer from a hitter.

The Hitter's Eye picked up on this technique, giving pitchers who were more successful at hiding the ball in real life the ability to defy the Hitter's Eye within the game. Simply put, the Hitter's Eye added a critical layer to the pitcher/batter showdown that made for one of the most realistic batting experiences ever.

The Show 09's guess pitch feature poorly attempts to replicate hitting in the sport of baseball. For a title that prides itself on realism and authenticity, it boggles my mind why this feature makes it into the series year in and year out. There is no doubt that Major League batters may take a certain approach at the plate or sit on a pitch, but by no means do they ever "guess" as to what pitch is going to be thrown to them.

Hitting is about reading a pitch off the pitcher's hand and reacting accordingly. Even if Derek Jeter goes to the plate with the mindset of sitting on a fastball, he is not going to simply guess fastball, mentally lock into seeing a fastball, and then get some type of feedback that he guessed correctly as soon as the pitcher begins his wind-up. Guess pitch fails miserably to replicate actual hitting in baseball, and it has no place in baseball games released in 2009.

Left Stick Influence vs. Zone Hitting/PCI

What could be the most frustrating aspect of MLB 09's batting system is its zone hitting scheme. Just as the Hitter's Eye did, MVP 05's left stick hitting system raised the bar for video game hitting systems to another level. The beauty of the MVP left-stick system was that it accurately simulated a batter's arm extension and height through the hitting zone, which allowed you to influence your hit type.

In real life, proper hitting in the zone is all about timing and arm extension/retraction -- you pull the inside pitch and you go the other way with the outside pitch. If you were being pounded inside in MVP, you simply pulled your arms in by moving the left stick in the respective direction. If you wanted to take an outside pitch the other way, you aimed that way with the left stick and swung away. You did the same thing when trying to hit fly balls (pushed up on the stick) and ground balls (pushed down on the stick). You could also mix in a variety of directions for complete hitting freedom -- up and left for a righty on the left stick was equivalent to a fly ball to the left side of the field. What made this system even better was how organic it felt on the field; the game forced you to go with the pitch that was thrown to you, which meant no pulling outside pitches for moonshot home runs.

The big problem with The Show 09's zone based/PCI hitting scheme is that it does not feel like you have true 1:1 control over your batter's arm extension through the zone. The system seems almost entirely dependent on the timing of your swing to be successful, even on the higher difficulties. My issue with this approach to a hitting system is that control has been taken away from the user, a huge no no to me in sports games. I understand that the PCI is meant to act as a cursor-based hitting system, but it just does not work as fluidly as MVP's system.

I have not even mentioned that PCI is rendered almost completely useless because of the lack of depth perception that is factored into the trajectory of the pitch. For some reason, it is extremely difficult to pick up the break on a slider or 12-6 curve because of a lack of depth on the Y-axis. This may just be personal preference, but every pitch you face while batting seems to be thrown too straight in its trajectory. The resulting feeling does not feel natural, especially on breaking pitches low in the zone. The longer you play the game, the more you start to realize that by the time you are able to adjust your PCI, the pitch has been thrown past you. After three games in my franchise, I realized it was absolutely worthless to even use PCI because I was having far more success simply timing pitches that are grooved down the heart of the plate.

Complete Batting Failure

My biggest gripe with The Show's hitting system -- and something that makes absolutely no sense to me at all -- is that your fly ball, ground ball, pull and push influence is tied to the right stick. At what point did this decision make sense to SCE Studios San Diego?

This is just another aspect of hitting in The Show that takes control away from the user and creates a disconnect when at the dish. If I am a right-handed hitter and want to dig in to push an inside pitch to the right side of the infield, I should be able to do so. The way the hitting system is currently set up, you would have to guess that the pitch was going to be inside, and then before the pitch is thrown use your right stick to take the ball to the right side of the infield.

Sorry SCE, but that is just silly. I should be able to react to the pitch as it is being thrown to me, and if it is inside, be able to pull my hands closer to my body and push the ball to the right side of the infield.

SCE's hitting system feels too complicated for its own good and needs to get back to the "read and react" simplicity that made hitting in MVP feel so natural.

Base Running

Much like hitting, MVP 05's PiP base-running mechanic and analog slides were the the pinnacle of baseball running controls. Not since the days of RBI Baseball had gamers been able to advance around the diamond with such ease. Base running in MLB 09 is by far the game's weakest element.

Navigating the bases feels exceedingly clunky, often times leading to a human-controlled team literally giving outs to the CPU after the ball is put in play. As if the control scheme was not awkward enough, SCE throws in analog steals that borrow heavily from MVP but stops short of re-creating the magic EA's title was able to convey.

MVP 05 introduced one of the most simple and most effective running systems ever. By simply pressing the corresponding face button of the player you wanted to activate, you could advance and retreat players with ease. It was always extremely easy to identify the runner you wanted to control on the fly, and never in five years of dedicated playing did I ever mistakenly advance a runner I did not want to.

The steal system in MVP was also very user friendly, even if it utilized the same basic shoulder button lead mechanics that games had been using for years. Sliding via the analog stick in MVP was also extremely responsive, allowing you to perform six different slides to each base. Picking the correct slide for the correct situation was simple, and it created some highlight-reel moments at second, third and home. Best of all was the fact that you could break up double plays by going in cleats up or purposely sliding outside the basepath.

After playing MVP and appreciating just how good the game plays on the basepaths, The Show 09's controls are downright brutal. Attempting to select a player and advance him individually when the ball is put in play is unnecessarily complicated. The game requires you to contort your fingers between the right-analog stick, face buttons and triggers, while reacting on the fly. The result is an absolute mess. Add in an analog stick slide system that is extremely unresponsive, and you have an aspect of The Show that SCE Studios needs to completely reprogram.

I cannot be the only one wishing that the studio would just do everyone a favor and implement MVP's base-running system button for button. When a sports game establishes such a good precedent, there is nothing wrong with imitation.


Dynasty/Owner Mode

While MVP integrated both a fully fleshed out dynasty mode and owner mode, The Show presents us with a jumbled mess in its hybrid dynasty/owner mode offering.

Anyone who has ever played MVP 05’s owner mode understands just how deep it was. It was the first video game I have ever played that actually made you pay attention to your respective roster moves and player signings because every decision you made affected your financial bottom line. For the first time ever in a baseball game, you were able to forge a financial identity.

The game allowed you to run your club's finances the way you wanted to, even allowing you to build and upgrade a personalized stadium if you wanted to go that route -- I still miss Hank Scorpio Field. Everything in MVP 05’s owner mode revolved around building a winner, getting more fans, increasing income and then spending it however you deemed worthy. It was absolute bliss. All these elements, plus the menu navigation, player management and finance management were all extremely streamlined and user-friendly.

One of the main issues I have with The Show's dynasty mode is that while it implements aspects of both dynasty and owner modes, the complete package does not implement either mode extremely well. It is almost as if the developers were not quite sure what they wanted to do with franchise, so they created a super deep roster and transaction system and then patched a bunch of typical franchise and owner mode aspects to it (team bus anyone?).

The menus also are not streamlined, it is difficult to figure out how to manage your players, and why is my team always complaining that there is not a jacuzzi in the training room?

The Show 09’s franchise mode also fails because money has absolutely no meaning. Is your franchise struggling and in need of an expensive free agent? No problem, go take a loan out from the bank. There are absolutely no consequences for spending like the Yankees in the game, even if you are the Nationals. If there is anything to be learned from today’s real world sports economy, it is that there are spenders and small-market teams. MVP forced you to be careful with your spending or face complete economic failure. In fact, owner mode actually ended if you spent too many years in the red -- there were no government bailouts in MVP baseball in 2004, capitalism was alive and well.

I can see how this would not bother many gamers, and I will admit that it is not a game breaker, but after playing 10-plus years of MVP 05 owner mode, The Show’s franchise mode feels extremely shallow.


With all that has been said in this article, I think it is important to note that I feel The Show 09 is a very solid title. The game is my front runner for game of the year. And, if the game makes the changes I outlined above, it may finally be time to lacquer my copy of MVP 05 on a plaque and hang it next to my wedding picture.

2009 is a great year to be a baseball gamer, but 2004 was even better. As the Dropkick Murphys pointed out in the opening track of EA’s hardball gem, "Tessie is the royal ruler." There is no doubt in my mind that "Tessie" is synonymous with MVP 05.


MLB '09: The Show Videos
Member Comments
# 21 moemoe24 @ 05/07/09 07:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmorg
This is wrong on all accounts. You say you played on a high level of baseball but consider MVP's hitting mechanics and batters eye feature superior to The Show? How do you figure?

I played Semi-Pro and College ball and I never remember the baseball flashing different colors based upon what type of pitch was coming. I also never remember adjusting my swing to hit a fly ball or ground ball. If I wanted a fly ball I looked for a pitch up in the zone, and by swinging at a pitch up in the zone you have a better chance hitting a fly ball because that is how baseball works. This is the way it is in The Show.

MVP was a mediocre baseball game at best though they did do some great things with control schemes.
Very good post. MVP was a great game, but the hype it received was for one simple reason.....it was the first true sim on a console...and I use the word sim lightly. The games before that were very arcading with ridiculous stats(RBI baseball, High Heat, World Series Baseball). Thats the only reason it got so much hype.

Add to the fact that the game went bye bye and it only fed the hype machine even more. The thing about remembering is, you only remember the good things...and forget the bad things.

The Show simulates real baseball, especially hitting and pitching, WAY more than MVP ever did.
 
# 22 SDwinder @ 05/07/09 07:23 PM
For guys that have problems fielding with The Show, put it on Auto-Field and Manual Throw. It works great that way and actually will simulate the game better in the field. Fielders will move and field according to their parameters the way they are programmed to. But then, you can tell them where to throw the ball, and by doing a Pre-load on the throw, you will get a smooth animation on the throw. Trust me, it just works better and looks great.
 
# 23 raidersbball20 @ 05/07/09 07:37 PM
this is all true, why I play mvp still
 
# 24 SDwinder @ 05/07/09 07:38 PM
Also, base stealing in The Show works great. Controlling multiple baserunners is a pain, but stealing 2B works very well. The AI is challenging and makes you work for a lead and a jump.

Some pitchers in certain situations wont allow you to get an extended lead, and you risk getting picked off. But when that happens I just work on getting a great jump more with a faster runner from the normal lead..

Normally, I can get a one extra step lead without drawing a pick, but sometimes it is almost impossible.

The user controlled sliding is kinda sluggish at times. Sometimes, I feel like the AI is over-riding my choice.
 
# 25 mike8813 @ 05/07/09 07:45 PM
I don't understand the writer's logic in dismissing the Show's hitting mechanic. To say that you can't bring your hands in to pull a ball or extend to go oppo is wrong.

To pull an inside pitch: have your PCI inside, swing early. DONE.

To hit an outside pitch the opposite way: have your PCI outside, wait the extra split second, swing late. DONE.

Average those out and you hit it up the middle. Am I missing something here?
 
# 26 Tyrant8RDFL @ 05/07/09 07:50 PM
I dont use guess pitch, but I do use where in the zone the next pitch will be but only If I have 0 or 1 strike in my count. If i have 2 strikes I use no hitting feature at all. Its all about protecting the plate at that point. Its pretty intense.

I can truly agree on is the hitter eyes.It is a much better feature than the hitting features given on the Show.

Hitting im cool with on both games.

Pitching I like the show better. It can get down right scary on the show to land a ptich where you want. On MVP it was way to easy to paint corners. I was unhittable.

Baserunning I go with MVP. Its pretty obvious why.
 
# 27 F1N1SH1M @ 05/07/09 07:57 PM
Hitting in the Show 09' is not as complicated as Christian McLeod has described.

First of all I think GP ON should be eliminated. Baseball simulation and the GP ON feature should not be in the same sentence. A big red cherry should not flash on the screen to notify you where the ball is going. This is cheating and a reward system you could liken to a electronic preschool reading game. GP OFF is clearly a better reflection on how the professionals carry out their craft.

"My biggest gripe with The Show's hitting system -- and something that makes absolutely no sense to me at all -- is that your fly ball, ground ball, pull and push influence is tied to the right stick. At what point did this decision make sense to SCE Studios San Diego?

This is just another aspect of hitting in The Show that takes control away from the user and creates a disconnect when at the dish. If I am a right-handed hitter and want to dig in to push an inside pitch to the right side of the infield, I should be able to do so. The way the hitting system is currently set up, you would have to guess that the pitch was going to be inside, and then before the pitch is thrown use your right stick to take the ball to the right side of the infield.

Sorry SCE, but that is just silly. I should be able to react to the pitch as it is being thrown to me, and if it is inside, be able to pull my hands closer to my body and push the ball to the right side of the infield.

SCE's hitting system feels too complicated for its own good and needs to get back to the "read and react" simplicity that made hitting in MVP feel so natural."

1. Pre-pitch the right analog stick allows you to choose which direction you want the batter to influence the ball to travel by simply flicking it in the specified direction anywhere on a 360 degree axis until you feel the slight rumble.

2. The left analog stick allows you to simultaneously hold the stick in the direction you want the ball to travel while swinging the bat with the x or square button.

Personally I never use the left analog in hitting, just the right analog. I also limit my use of the right analog to situational (stay out of double play, hit the ball to the right side, sacrifice fly, bunting, etc) and sometimes 2-strike hitting. It is much easier to use good timing to hit the pitch well instead of you trying to guess where the pitch is headed. I find I have better success with the above average to highest rated batters when I just use timing to hit with them instead of pre-pitch trying to influence where I want the ball to go, unless Im in a situational hitting at-bat.

Early recognition of the pitch and timing in your swing is dependent upon the individuals sight, depth perception and reflexes. If you cannot utilize the batters eye to fixate a target and attach it to the release point and thus track the ball from that release point repeatedly instead of getting sidetracked by the windup then trying to pick up the ball, therin lies part of the problem.

After one or two pitches I try to match the release point to a target on the batters eye (an HD tv helps considerably but I did that even before I had an HD and still had reasonable success) for a particular pitcher during their windup. Once I have that target mentally seared in my mind I imprint another target for the release point of the pitcher from their stretch because as some of you may know it can vary for some pitchers. When playing online these release points depend upon your opponent hitting the bar in the pitching meter to execute the pitch (offline the AI pitchers seem to vary the release points on a more regular basis).[ I purposely miss the bar sometimes for fastballs, especially when pitcher is tiring, but still manipulate the process to the point where you can throw strikes even if you miss your "intended" speed and location. This comes in handy when you are playing an opponent who is "zeroing" in on your pitchers release point.]

Now if you can pick up the ball right out of the pitchers hand this gives you more time to recognize speed/pitch type, make a decision on where you think the ball is headed and whether you want to swing at it.

The instruction manual clearly states how you can influence hitting and the user has a great deal of control in the process. Ive had good to great success in doing so whether it's versus the AI or human opponents and the only diffuculty I play is guess pitch off, legend or hall of fame/no zones.
 
# 28 Brian SCEA @ 05/07/09 08:13 PM
Some tips on hitting:
* Whether your PCI is inside or outside does influence the direction of the hit.
* Whether your PCI is over or under the pitch influences flyballs and groundballs. There are also more factors than that.
* The right analog stick is a legacy feature for people who want to use it. When you use it, there's a contact penalty. Almost everyone uses the left analog to control hitting.
* The same goes for guess pitch, it's for people who don't want to use pure zone hitting. The game is designed for pure zone hitting, guess pitch is simply an alternative to that. That said, there's a lot of deep strategy to guess pitch for those who enjoy it.

All four of the above have been in the game since PS1 days in one form or another, which long predates any of the games being discussed. I'm sure earlier baseball games have had these concepts as well. I just wanted to clarify some factual errors being discussed, this isn't a comment on anything else.

A common theme over the years is that every person would enjoy the game more if the features they didn't use were taken out. By the same token, every person would enjoy the game less if the features other people didn't use were taken out. Someday in the future of gaming it'll be great when we can ship custom tailored games, or more "flavors" of the same game. Unfortunately often those efforts produce quality issues by dividing efforts.

One reason for the Strategy Guide this year is because it's easy to jump to conclusions on how things work. For example Guess pitch has long penalized for incorrect guesses, but until it showed up in the Strategy Guide (and even after for a while) almost everyone thought it was a freebie. There's no particular reason to think of it as a freebie, but that's how urban legends combined with the internet work. The same about the classic vs. meter debate. Speculation easily wins over facts on the internet.

If you take a look at the very last page of the Strategy Guide, it reveals some subtle insights on hitting. I think it's a lot more fun to explore the game and discover these things on your own than to simply be told in a guide, and there's a lot more to hitting both in the game and real life. It ties into why real life pitchers pitch the way they do and favor certain zones with certain pitches. A lot of strategies in real life work in the game for this reason.

Why do you walk AI batters? You certainly don't want to, but you do. It's actually a complex question because it progressively happens over 4-10 pitches, and the answer reveals that there are a lot of things happening strategically on different levels. Just to name one example.

Hitting is definitely not just about pitch location and where the batter tries to swing at. Just to name one example, when the batter swings too early he can't help but roll his wrists and this induce more groundballs. Pitchers further exploit this by locating pitches away, which often end up being pulled foul by the batter for a chopper. Look at 6-way spray charts (Lft-Cen-Rt with FB-GB) and it's obvious what's happening. You can look at it through stat splits, by watching an early swing in slow motion, or asking any hitting coach. Better yet, look at the assymetries of how pitchers pitch and find out why. This and every other concept is why.

The point is the batter can be aiming dead center on the ball, but because he was too early he will always swing over it if aiming dead on. This would happen even if the hitter knew exactly where the pitch was going to land but not when. There are no batters in MLB who have a flat swing from beginning to end, and that is exactly why hitting is not just about pitch location and where the batter aims.

Each of the items listed in the Analysis Legend correspond to a key principle like this, and there are a lot more not yet described. In that regard, it's a lot like real life because there aren't any books that cover even half the mechanics of hitting. Some of the best ones were written 50 years ago!
 
# 29 Brian SCEA @ 05/07/09 08:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike8813
I don't understand the writer's logic in dismissing the Show's hitting mechanic. To say that you can't bring your hands in to pull a ball or extend to go oppo is wrong.

To pull an inside pitch: have your PCI inside, swing early. DONE.

To hit an outside pitch the opposite way: have your PCI outside, wait the extra split second, swing late. DONE.

Average those out and you hit it up the middle. Am I missing something here?
Yes that's exactly how it works. Almost everything objectively described by OP as far as how hitting works is factually speaking incorrect.

Subjectively, everyone's going to have their opinion on what they like or not or how they feel about the results. That's why my comments are only about the factual aspects of how hitting works. Once one person says it, people repeat it until it becomes an urban legend and it gets flagged for next year's Strategy Guide.

Play whatever you like, games are for entertainment!
 
# 30 metal134 @ 05/07/09 08:23 PM
To me, it doesn't matter how many things MVP did better (I agree with those who say that pitching was NOT one of them. Unequivocally, no way). There is one thing that MVP didn't have that, for me, is the MOST important thing in a baseball game, statistical accuracy! The Show 09' is the first game since High Heat that I could play through a season and look at a pitchers line and say, "yeah, in EVERY category, that looks like a real line." Give me a season pitching line from MVP and give me a real line and I can immediately tell the difference. This extends to offensive players as well, but it's more-so because of the pitching.
 
# 31 Artman22 @ 05/07/09 08:26 PM
I completely agree with this entire Article. I would add that MVP still has way better fielding as well. Fielding in the show needs to be redone..
 
# 32 Artman22 @ 05/07/09 08:27 PM
I feel MVP had more hit variations.
 
# 33 nemesis04 @ 05/07/09 08:35 PM
The only aspect I remotely miss from MVP is the fielding. That area needs some major attention. I think the pitching in the Show blows away what MVP had in terms of the pitching meter.

I did not like the hitting in MVP at all the up for a fly ball down for a grounder was lame. I much prefer aiming the left stick to track the pitch. The PCI still needs to be smaller, it is too big.
 
# 34 mikeveli20 @ 05/07/09 08:37 PM
If I had to choose only 1 of the 3 things you mentioned to be implemented into The Show 2010, it would definitely be the hitting. I agree, there is nothing like the hitting in MVP 05 and it really was incredible.
 
# 35 nemesis04 @ 05/07/09 08:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim416
Disagree 100% and I loved MVP PC.
The hit variety in the Show has improved tremendously but there were some hit types that were in MVP that are absent from the Show.
 
# 36 ehh @ 05/07/09 08:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art1bk
I feel MVP had more hit variations.
MVP was pop up, line drive and HR city. Very few weak grounds and no bloopers. I loved the hitting in MVP but the hit variety was poor, by comparison MLB '09 is better but even that pales in comparison to MLB 2K4 IMO. Why can't a baseball game get bloopers right these days? I never hit a single blooper in any version of MVP or The Show.
 
# 37 Townie33 @ 05/07/09 08:42 PM
Hitter's Eye was pure genius! Trying to "read" the pitch out the pitcher's hand was the best. The different colors for the different pitches was sweet. Why can't we have that again?

But I do LOVE THIS game!
 
# 38 nemesis04 @ 05/07/09 08:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Townie33
Hitter's Eye was pure genius! Trying to "read" the pitch out the pitcher's hand was the best. The different colors for the different pitches was sweet. Why can't we have that again?

But I do LOVE THIS game!
Never knew why so many people loved this feature? Basically a feature that tipped the batter to the cpu's pitch.

On another note hope all is well Townie!
 
# 39 ehh @ 05/07/09 08:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsb13
I dont know man, The Show is pretty line drive happy itself and i dont know if I have seen a true high chopper yet. Also, in the show all my bloopers are from jam shots that go to opposite field...I have nevers seen a pulled bloop hit.
I definitely agree with you, there are way, way too many line drives in The Show but overall I feel the hit variety is better. There are a more realistic number of weak grounders and IF hits in MLB '09.
 
# 40 nemesis04 @ 05/07/09 09:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsb13
It was supposed to simulate a hitter reading the seams of the ball (which happens in real life). I thought it was a good attempt but it just didn't quite cut it.
I know what it was supposed to do but it seemed like a crutch to me. A batter cannot read ever single pitch.
 


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