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Three Things MVP 05 Still Does Better

MLB 09: The Show has been out for over a month, and many baseball gaming enthusiasts have hailed the game as the best baseball video game ever. As a baseball elitist myself, there is no denying that the game is extremely impressive.

It has been five solid years since I have enjoyed a baseball game as much as this year's iteration of The Show. Because of this enjoyment level, I have found myself glued to my PS3 cultivating my Road to the Show career and running a somewhat successful Detroit Tigers dynasty.

Still, as with most sports games, the more time I have been able to spend with The Show, the more nagging issues I have run into. These issues have left me yearning for something more from a baseball title, something only MVP Baseball 05 was ever able to satisfy. Of course, MVP 05 is still held in high regards throughout the virtual baseball community, and is still being played religiously on both PC and consoles because of a very active modding community.

The point is, while The Show is a fantastic effort, it is still lagging behind MVP 05 in three very key areas. But, with a few small improvements to the 2010 version of The Show, MVP 05 can perhaps be retired for good.


One thing MVP still does better is the hitting.

Batting


MVP 05's Hitter's Eye and left stick influence mechanics were the best additions to video game baseball hitting ever. As someone who played high-level baseball, I can really appreciate just how well MVP implemented both of these mechanics into their final MLB title. The Show's guess pitch feature, coupled with the zone- and timing-based hitting schemes are adequate, but for seasoned MVP veterans, it feels as if crucial control is being taken out of your hands while at the plate.

Hitter's Eye vs. Guess Pitch

MVP's Hitter's Eye was a complete stroke of genius. Anyone that knows a lick about real-life hitting knows that the key to being successful is picking up the ball the moment it becomes visible. This technique is so crucial that pitchers have been taught to vary release points and arm angles in an attempt to hide the ball a fraction of a second longer from a hitter.

The Hitter's Eye picked up on this technique, giving pitchers who were more successful at hiding the ball in real life the ability to defy the Hitter's Eye within the game. Simply put, the Hitter's Eye added a critical layer to the pitcher/batter showdown that made for one of the most realistic batting experiences ever.

The Show 09's guess pitch feature poorly attempts to replicate hitting in the sport of baseball. For a title that prides itself on realism and authenticity, it boggles my mind why this feature makes it into the series year in and year out. There is no doubt that Major League batters may take a certain approach at the plate or sit on a pitch, but by no means do they ever "guess" as to what pitch is going to be thrown to them.

Hitting is about reading a pitch off the pitcher's hand and reacting accordingly. Even if Derek Jeter goes to the plate with the mindset of sitting on a fastball, he is not going to simply guess fastball, mentally lock into seeing a fastball, and then get some type of feedback that he guessed correctly as soon as the pitcher begins his wind-up. Guess pitch fails miserably to replicate actual hitting in baseball, and it has no place in baseball games released in 2009.

Left Stick Influence vs. Zone Hitting/PCI

What could be the most frustrating aspect of MLB 09's batting system is its zone hitting scheme. Just as the Hitter's Eye did, MVP 05's left stick hitting system raised the bar for video game hitting systems to another level. The beauty of the MVP left-stick system was that it accurately simulated a batter's arm extension and height through the hitting zone, which allowed you to influence your hit type.

In real life, proper hitting in the zone is all about timing and arm extension/retraction -- you pull the inside pitch and you go the other way with the outside pitch. If you were being pounded inside in MVP, you simply pulled your arms in by moving the left stick in the respective direction. If you wanted to take an outside pitch the other way, you aimed that way with the left stick and swung away. You did the same thing when trying to hit fly balls (pushed up on the stick) and ground balls (pushed down on the stick). You could also mix in a variety of directions for complete hitting freedom -- up and left for a righty on the left stick was equivalent to a fly ball to the left side of the field. What made this system even better was how organic it felt on the field; the game forced you to go with the pitch that was thrown to you, which meant no pulling outside pitches for moonshot home runs.

The big problem with The Show 09's zone based/PCI hitting scheme is that it does not feel like you have true 1:1 control over your batter's arm extension through the zone. The system seems almost entirely dependent on the timing of your swing to be successful, even on the higher difficulties. My issue with this approach to a hitting system is that control has been taken away from the user, a huge no no to me in sports games. I understand that the PCI is meant to act as a cursor-based hitting system, but it just does not work as fluidly as MVP's system.

I have not even mentioned that PCI is rendered almost completely useless because of the lack of depth perception that is factored into the trajectory of the pitch. For some reason, it is extremely difficult to pick up the break on a slider or 12-6 curve because of a lack of depth on the Y-axis. This may just be personal preference, but every pitch you face while batting seems to be thrown too straight in its trajectory. The resulting feeling does not feel natural, especially on breaking pitches low in the zone. The longer you play the game, the more you start to realize that by the time you are able to adjust your PCI, the pitch has been thrown past you. After three games in my franchise, I realized it was absolutely worthless to even use PCI because I was having far more success simply timing pitches that are grooved down the heart of the plate.

Complete Batting Failure

My biggest gripe with The Show's hitting system -- and something that makes absolutely no sense to me at all -- is that your fly ball, ground ball, pull and push influence is tied to the right stick. At what point did this decision make sense to SCE Studios San Diego?

This is just another aspect of hitting in The Show that takes control away from the user and creates a disconnect when at the dish. If I am a right-handed hitter and want to dig in to push an inside pitch to the right side of the infield, I should be able to do so. The way the hitting system is currently set up, you would have to guess that the pitch was going to be inside, and then before the pitch is thrown use your right stick to take the ball to the right side of the infield.

Sorry SCE, but that is just silly. I should be able to react to the pitch as it is being thrown to me, and if it is inside, be able to pull my hands closer to my body and push the ball to the right side of the infield.

SCE's hitting system feels too complicated for its own good and needs to get back to the "read and react" simplicity that made hitting in MVP feel so natural.

Base Running

Much like hitting, MVP 05's PiP base-running mechanic and analog slides were the the pinnacle of baseball running controls. Not since the days of RBI Baseball had gamers been able to advance around the diamond with such ease. Base running in MLB 09 is by far the game's weakest element.

Navigating the bases feels exceedingly clunky, often times leading to a human-controlled team literally giving outs to the CPU after the ball is put in play. As if the control scheme was not awkward enough, SCE throws in analog steals that borrow heavily from MVP but stops short of re-creating the magic EA's title was able to convey.

MVP 05 introduced one of the most simple and most effective running systems ever. By simply pressing the corresponding face button of the player you wanted to activate, you could advance and retreat players with ease. It was always extremely easy to identify the runner you wanted to control on the fly, and never in five years of dedicated playing did I ever mistakenly advance a runner I did not want to.

The steal system in MVP was also very user friendly, even if it utilized the same basic shoulder button lead mechanics that games had been using for years. Sliding via the analog stick in MVP was also extremely responsive, allowing you to perform six different slides to each base. Picking the correct slide for the correct situation was simple, and it created some highlight-reel moments at second, third and home. Best of all was the fact that you could break up double plays by going in cleats up or purposely sliding outside the basepath.

After playing MVP and appreciating just how good the game plays on the basepaths, The Show 09's controls are downright brutal. Attempting to select a player and advance him individually when the ball is put in play is unnecessarily complicated. The game requires you to contort your fingers between the right-analog stick, face buttons and triggers, while reacting on the fly. The result is an absolute mess. Add in an analog stick slide system that is extremely unresponsive, and you have an aspect of The Show that SCE Studios needs to completely reprogram.

I cannot be the only one wishing that the studio would just do everyone a favor and implement MVP's base-running system button for button. When a sports game establishes such a good precedent, there is nothing wrong with imitation.


Dynasty/Owner Mode

While MVP integrated both a fully fleshed out dynasty mode and owner mode, The Show presents us with a jumbled mess in its hybrid dynasty/owner mode offering.

Anyone who has ever played MVP 05’s owner mode understands just how deep it was. It was the first video game I have ever played that actually made you pay attention to your respective roster moves and player signings because every decision you made affected your financial bottom line. For the first time ever in a baseball game, you were able to forge a financial identity.

The game allowed you to run your club's finances the way you wanted to, even allowing you to build and upgrade a personalized stadium if you wanted to go that route -- I still miss Hank Scorpio Field. Everything in MVP 05’s owner mode revolved around building a winner, getting more fans, increasing income and then spending it however you deemed worthy. It was absolute bliss. All these elements, plus the menu navigation, player management and finance management were all extremely streamlined and user-friendly.

One of the main issues I have with The Show's dynasty mode is that while it implements aspects of both dynasty and owner modes, the complete package does not implement either mode extremely well. It is almost as if the developers were not quite sure what they wanted to do with franchise, so they created a super deep roster and transaction system and then patched a bunch of typical franchise and owner mode aspects to it (team bus anyone?).

The menus also are not streamlined, it is difficult to figure out how to manage your players, and why is my team always complaining that there is not a jacuzzi in the training room?

The Show 09’s franchise mode also fails because money has absolutely no meaning. Is your franchise struggling and in need of an expensive free agent? No problem, go take a loan out from the bank. There are absolutely no consequences for spending like the Yankees in the game, even if you are the Nationals. If there is anything to be learned from today’s real world sports economy, it is that there are spenders and small-market teams. MVP forced you to be careful with your spending or face complete economic failure. In fact, owner mode actually ended if you spent too many years in the red -- there were no government bailouts in MVP baseball in 2004, capitalism was alive and well.

I can see how this would not bother many gamers, and I will admit that it is not a game breaker, but after playing 10-plus years of MVP 05 owner mode, The Show’s franchise mode feels extremely shallow.


With all that has been said in this article, I think it is important to note that I feel The Show 09 is a very solid title. The game is my front runner for game of the year. And, if the game makes the changes I outlined above, it may finally be time to lacquer my copy of MVP 05 on a plaque and hang it next to my wedding picture.

2009 is a great year to be a baseball gamer, but 2004 was even better. As the Dropkick Murphys pointed out in the opening track of EA’s hardball gem, "Tessie is the royal ruler." There is no doubt in my mind that "Tessie" is synonymous with MVP 05.


MLB '09: The Show Videos
Member Comments
# 121 Imnus @ 05/09/09 09:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian SCEA
Some tips on hitting:
* Whether your PCI is inside or outside does influence the direction of the hit.
* Whether your PCI is over or under the pitch influences flyballs and groundballs. There are also more factors than that.
* The right analog stick is a legacy feature for people who want to use it. When you use it, there's a contact penalty. Almost everyone uses the left analog to control hitting.
* The same goes for guess pitch, it's for people who don't want to use pure zone hitting. The game is designed for pure zone hitting, guess pitch is simply an alternative to that. That said, there's a lot of deep strategy to guess pitch for those who enjoy it.

All four of the above have been in the game since PS1 days in one form or another, which long predates any of the games being discussed. I'm sure earlier baseball games have had these concepts as well. I just wanted to clarify some factual errors being discussed, this isn't a comment on anything else.

A common theme over the years is that every person would enjoy the game more if the features they didn't use were taken out. By the same token, every person would enjoy the game less if the features other people didn't use were taken out. Someday in the future of gaming it'll be great when we can ship custom tailored games, or more "flavors" of the same game. Unfortunately often those efforts produce quality issues by dividing efforts.

One reason for the Strategy Guide this year is because it's easy to jump to conclusions on how things work. For example Guess pitch has long penalized for incorrect guesses, but until it showed up in the Strategy Guide (and even after for a while) almost everyone thought it was a freebie. There's no particular reason to think of it as a freebie, but that's how urban legends combined with the internet work. The same about the classic vs. meter debate. Speculation easily wins over facts on the internet.

If you take a look at the very last page of the Strategy Guide, it reveals some subtle insights on hitting. I think it's a lot more fun to explore the game and discover these things on your own than to simply be told in a guide, and there's a lot more to hitting both in the game and real life. It ties into why real life pitchers pitch the way they do and favor certain zones with certain pitches. A lot of strategies in real life work in the game for this reason.

Why do you walk AI batters? You certainly don't want to, but you do. It's actually a complex question because it progressively happens over 4-10 pitches, and the answer reveals that there are a lot of things happening strategically on different levels. Just to name one example.

Hitting is definitely not just about pitch location and where the batter tries to swing at. Just to name one example, when the batter swings too early he can't help but roll his wrists and this induce more groundballs. Pitchers further exploit this by locating pitches away, which often end up being pulled foul by the batter for a chopper. Look at 6-way spray charts (Lft-Cen-Rt with FB-GB) and it's obvious what's happening. You can look at it through stat splits, by watching an early swing in slow motion, or asking any hitting coach. Better yet, look at the assymetries of how pitchers pitch and find out why. This and every other concept is why.

The point is the batter can be aiming dead center on the ball, but because he was too early he will always swing over it if aiming dead on. This would happen even if the hitter knew exactly where the pitch was going to land but not when. There are no batters in MLB who have a flat swing from beginning to end, and that is exactly why hitting is not just about pitch location and where the batter aims.

Each of the items listed in the Analysis Legend correspond to a key principle like this, and there are a lot more not yet described. In that regard, it's a lot like real life because there aren't any books that cover even half the mechanics of hitting. Some of the best ones were written 50 years ago!
I hope you guys put a really good gameplay tutorial next year so I don't have to read about people complaining about the game just because they suck at it, and don't give a damm about trying to learn the mechanics, just want the game to play the way they want.

Look for the Training mode in Pro Evolution Soccer so you guys get an idea how to do it.
 
# 122 MrOctober430 @ 05/09/09 10:32 PM
After playing the Show for the first time today, I felt like MVP05 was so far ahead of it's time. I just hate the pitching in the Show & baserunning is awful, but that's just me.

Still will give it a chance since theres no other baseball games out there.
 
# 123 Bumble14 @ 05/09/09 10:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim416
He got some facts wrong, just wondering about this being in this forum.

If we can't start threads comparing MLB2k and The Show, why this one? If you or I would have put a comparison here it probably would have been closed.
What facts did I get wrong Jim? Brian attempted to say that PCI mimicked MVP 05's left stick 1:1 influence- this is flat out not true. PCI may work to influence the direction of the ball on certain pitches (even Brian admits that "there are other factors" that go into where you hit the ball besides PCI influence), but MVP would attempt to take the ball the direction you wanted on every pitch. If you wanted to try and pull an outside pitch, no matter how ill advised, at least you had the option to try in MVP- your batters arms through the zone were completely under your control. There is a huge difference between the two hitting models, and my article was pointing out that I preferred the control MVP gave me at the plate.

I don't really have an issue with people knocking the article, but trust me when I say that there was a lot of research and play testing that occurred before it was written. My facts are not incorrect- Brian is incorrect by making users believe left stick (pci) influence in The Show is true 1:1 swing influence like in MVP.
 
# 124 SoxChamp @ 05/09/09 11:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imnus
I hope you guys put a really good gameplay tutorial next year so I don't have to read about people complaining about the game just because they suck at it, and don't give a damm about trying to learn the mechanics, just want the game to play the way they want.

Look for the Training mode in Pro Evolution Soccer so you guys get an idea how to do it.
Do you honestly think that the people who are complaining about hitting are going to take the time to use a tutorial or training mode? It's much easier to run to a message board and gripe and complain.
 
# 125 Imnus @ 05/09/09 11:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoxChamp
Do you honestly think that the people who are complaining about hitting are going to take the time to use a tutorial or training mode? It's much easier to run to a message board and gripe and complain.
Yes, you're right. But if you've ever played PES Training mode you'll see that it's much more appealing than the guide in The Show.
 
# 126 Imnus @ 05/09/09 11:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumble14
What facts did I get wrong Jim? Brian attempted to say that PCI mimicked MVP 05's left stick 1:1 influence- this is flat out not true. PCI may work to influence the direction of the ball on certain pitches (even Brian admits that "there are other factors" that go into where you hit the ball besides PCI influence), but MVP would attempt to take the ball the direction you wanted on every pitch. If you wanted to try and pull an outside pitch, no matter how ill advised, at least you had the option to try in MVP- your batters arms through the zone were completely under your control. There is a huge difference between the two hitting models, and my article was pointing out that I preferred the control MVP gave me at the plate.

I don't really have an issue with people knocking the article, but trust me when I say that there was a lot of research and play testing that occurred before it was written. My facts are not incorrect- Brian is incorrect by making users believe left stick (pci) influence in The Show is true 1:1 swing influence like in MVP.
I don't think Brian ever say that The Show tried to mimick how swing influence worked in MVP, he just said how it worked on it's own, it's not trying to be like MVP that's why you'll never like it.

While you hope they implement those MVP features you prefer, I really hope they never will. And I could too write an article "with a lot of previous research", and demostrate how everything on The Show is so much better than MVP except fielding.
 
# 127 Bumble14 @ 05/10/09 12:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim416
Not you, the person who wrote the article. The problem with this entire thread is people aren't even bothering to read what the dev wrote regarding the hitting. They're taking what was factually wrong, running with it, and like Brian said, it becomes an urban legend.

This thread should be moved to the MVP forums as this would have never survived this long had I, or anyone else posted it. It's become a "What's Better MVP or The Show". Just saying, if I would have posted this it would have been closed, and rightfully so, and we would have been told that there is an "impressions thread", lol. That's all.

It's taken on a life of it's own, MVP vs. The Show.
Jim-

I wrote the article- I'm Christian McLeod.

There was nothing factually wrong about what I wrote about The Show's hitting system. The bottom line is that PCI is not 1:1 left stick hitting like in MVP. That is EXACTLY what I talked about in my article, and even in Brian's response he admits that along with PCI there are other factors that go into into what determines where a ball is hit in The Show. I never said one thing in the article that was not factual about the hitting system in The Show.

I agree with you though in that people are not reading this article. What I think many people are not understanding is that I said I enjoy the game immensely, and have it on my short list of GOTY. That being said- there are certain areas that MVP still does better than The Show, and those were clearly defined in my article.
 
# 128 bkrich83 @ 05/10/09 12:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imnus
While you hope they implement those MVP features you prefer, I really hope they never will. And I could too write an article "with a lot of previous research", and demostrate how everything on The Show is so much better than MVP except fielding.
Agreed. I despised MVP's hitting system. It would be very disappointing if it was implemented in The Show.
 
# 129 bkrich83 @ 05/10/09 12:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim416
Not you, the person who wrote the article. The problem with this entire thread is people aren't even bothering to read what the dev wrote regarding the hitting. They're taking what was factually wrong, running with it, and like Brian said, it becomes an urban legend.

This thread should be moved to the MVP forums as this would have never survived this long had I, or anyone else posted it. It's become a "What's Better MVP or The Show". Just saying, if I would have posted this it would have been closed, and rightfully so, and we would have been told that there is an "impressions thread", lol. That's all.

It's taken on a life of it's own, MVP vs. The Show.
Agreed on all points...
 
# 130 Bumble14 @ 05/10/09 12:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim416
Which was overlooked and is being missed. Guess I just can't figure out how this can be posted, but no 2k vs. Show comparisons, and we've got one thread that only certain people can post in. Scratching my somewhat bald head.

No problem, said my piece.
I guess to answer your question, whenever we post a feature article on the site, it normally ends up in the forum of the game it is written about.

Article was never meant to be a MVP vs. The Show, but rather a closer look at the 3 areas mentioned.

Hope this clears things up as to why this article was placed into this forum.

Love your writings by the way. I know it's off topic, but wanted to let you know.
 
# 131 jpup @ 05/10/09 02:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumble14
I guess to answer your question, whenever we post a feature article on the site, it normally ends up in the forum of the game it is written about.

Article was never meant to be a MVP vs. The Show, but rather a closer look at the 3 areas mentioned.

Hope this clears things up as to why this article was placed into this forum.

Love your writings by the way. I know it's off topic, but wanted to let you know.
How can you write an article called "Three Things MVP 05 Still Does Better" and say it isn't supposed to be MVP vs. The Show? Silliness.
 
# 132 k_bassuka @ 05/10/09 09:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsb13
I think it was a good article.....the problem is/was it was put in the show forums...which is a big mistake. This thread should have been put in the MVP forum.
What's the difference of placing it in the MVP forum? If you don't like people to point out the truth about this game just don't read the forum, I believed that's what the forum is about for people to talk about what they like and what they don't like about a game. If you like this game better than anything you ever played good for you and you have the right to support the game but they're others that aren't so high on this game as you are, like me, I believe I was robbed yet again (3 years in a row) on a game that's half build and its repetitive, that's my thought. To suggest that people shouldn't complaint/ point out the games problems or weak areas is just ridiculous. Grow up.
 
# 133 Woodweaver @ 05/10/09 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by k_bassuka
What's the difference of placing it in the MVP forum? If you don't like people to point out the truth about this game just don't read the forum, I believed that's what the forum is about for people to talk about what they like and what they don't like about a game. If you like this game better than anything you ever played good for you and you have the right to support the game but they're others that aren't so high on this game as you are, like me, I believe I was robbed yet again (3 years in a row) on a game that's half build and its repetitive, that's my thought. To suggest that people shouldn't complaint/ point out the games problems or weak areas is just ridiculous. Grow up.
Half built? Robbed 3 years in a row? The truth?
 
# 134 bkrich83 @ 05/10/09 12:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodweaver
Half built? Robbed 3 years in a row? The truth?
Yes, hyperbole at it's finest.
 
# 135 mmorg @ 05/10/09 12:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumble14
Jim-

I wrote the article- I'm Christian McLeod.

There was nothing factually wrong about what I wrote about The Show's hitting system. The bottom line is that PCI is not 1:1 left stick hitting like in MVP. That is EXACTLY what I talked about in my article, and even in Brian's response he admits that along with PCI there are other factors that go into into what determines where a ball is hit in The Show. I never said one thing in the article that was not factual about the hitting system in The Show.

I agree with you though in that people are not reading this article. What I think many people are not understanding is that I said I enjoy the game immensely, and have it on my short list of GOTY. That being said- there are certain areas that MVP still does better than The Show, and those were clearly defined in my article.
That hitting system is broken. The hitting system in MVP belongs in a video game not a true simulation like The Show.
 
# 136 Acedeck @ 05/10/09 04:46 PM
The hitting in MVP allowed you to control how you wanted to push/pull various pitches, but didn't allow you to aim where you wanted to swing. The same counter-argument could be made that it didn't allow precision with your swing, since controlling *where* you swing is equally as important as controlling how you swing.

MVP allowed you to uppercut, swing down, swing level, and push/pull pitches. It didn't let you actually aim where your bat swung. That's a huge fault in a swinging system, in my humble opinion. I'm not saying The Show gives you 100% control of your swing. I'm simply stating my point that MVP by no means contained 100% control, like the OP seems to imply.
 
# 137 mwjr @ 05/10/09 07:39 PM
My biggest problem with MVP's owner mode is that your MLB team started out playing in what was essentially what was a minor leage stadium.

That just wasn't realistic at all, and I found it amazingly difficult to generate money to build it up.

And thos sim times. LORD, those sim times. It took forever to sim games if you were so inclined, as I usually was since I couldn't play every game.

That said, MVP was a fantastic game, and it's a shame that that such a revolutionary a game - a game that was on the precipice of something amazing, much like NFL 2K5 - was killed before it got going because of these stupid exclusive licenses.
 
# 138 Crown42Royal @ 05/10/09 11:57 PM
Decent article.
 
# 139 hydrostar @ 05/11/09 12:11 AM
Just want to chime in and say that I also don't feel it was wise to post this article in this forum. This encourages the kind of arguments that the hard-working moderators try so hard to prevent. Not a very good idea.
 
# 140 SFGiantsPBA @ 05/11/09 12:40 AM
I think High Heat 2001, 2002 and 2003 was a better game then MVP but MVP added innovation to Baseball and for OP to call High Heat an arcade game is just wrong MVP was way more on the Arcade side of things then High Heat was.

I always thought of The Show as the best of the 2 games High Heat type of Sim with MVP Meters and such.

Anyone that knows anything about baseball will tell you nothing comes close to it like The Show and The Show is the only game that makes me see things on a real MLB game and say that's just like The Show.

I have been playing baseball games since I was a child and I'm 40 now and no game have I played was so Sim like the real thing as The Show none.

I see the same things happen every day on TV that happen in the Show but MVP didn't give me that.

MVP was a real fun time and I ran leagues with that game all year round with every MLB Version and had a blast but it don't even come close to The Show.

High Heat arcade my ***!
 


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