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Three Things MVP 05 Still Does Better

MLB 09: The Show has been out for over a month, and many baseball gaming enthusiasts have hailed the game as the best baseball video game ever. As a baseball elitist myself, there is no denying that the game is extremely impressive.

It has been five solid years since I have enjoyed a baseball game as much as this year's iteration of The Show. Because of this enjoyment level, I have found myself glued to my PS3 cultivating my Road to the Show career and running a somewhat successful Detroit Tigers dynasty.

Still, as with most sports games, the more time I have been able to spend with The Show, the more nagging issues I have run into. These issues have left me yearning for something more from a baseball title, something only MVP Baseball 05 was ever able to satisfy. Of course, MVP 05 is still held in high regards throughout the virtual baseball community, and is still being played religiously on both PC and consoles because of a very active modding community.

The point is, while The Show is a fantastic effort, it is still lagging behind MVP 05 in three very key areas. But, with a few small improvements to the 2010 version of The Show, MVP 05 can perhaps be retired for good.


One thing MVP still does better is the hitting.

Batting


MVP 05's Hitter's Eye and left stick influence mechanics were the best additions to video game baseball hitting ever. As someone who played high-level baseball, I can really appreciate just how well MVP implemented both of these mechanics into their final MLB title. The Show's guess pitch feature, coupled with the zone- and timing-based hitting schemes are adequate, but for seasoned MVP veterans, it feels as if crucial control is being taken out of your hands while at the plate.

Hitter's Eye vs. Guess Pitch

MVP's Hitter's Eye was a complete stroke of genius. Anyone that knows a lick about real-life hitting knows that the key to being successful is picking up the ball the moment it becomes visible. This technique is so crucial that pitchers have been taught to vary release points and arm angles in an attempt to hide the ball a fraction of a second longer from a hitter.

The Hitter's Eye picked up on this technique, giving pitchers who were more successful at hiding the ball in real life the ability to defy the Hitter's Eye within the game. Simply put, the Hitter's Eye added a critical layer to the pitcher/batter showdown that made for one of the most realistic batting experiences ever.

The Show 09's guess pitch feature poorly attempts to replicate hitting in the sport of baseball. For a title that prides itself on realism and authenticity, it boggles my mind why this feature makes it into the series year in and year out. There is no doubt that Major League batters may take a certain approach at the plate or sit on a pitch, but by no means do they ever "guess" as to what pitch is going to be thrown to them.

Hitting is about reading a pitch off the pitcher's hand and reacting accordingly. Even if Derek Jeter goes to the plate with the mindset of sitting on a fastball, he is not going to simply guess fastball, mentally lock into seeing a fastball, and then get some type of feedback that he guessed correctly as soon as the pitcher begins his wind-up. Guess pitch fails miserably to replicate actual hitting in baseball, and it has no place in baseball games released in 2009.

Left Stick Influence vs. Zone Hitting/PCI

What could be the most frustrating aspect of MLB 09's batting system is its zone hitting scheme. Just as the Hitter's Eye did, MVP 05's left stick hitting system raised the bar for video game hitting systems to another level. The beauty of the MVP left-stick system was that it accurately simulated a batter's arm extension and height through the hitting zone, which allowed you to influence your hit type.

In real life, proper hitting in the zone is all about timing and arm extension/retraction -- you pull the inside pitch and you go the other way with the outside pitch. If you were being pounded inside in MVP, you simply pulled your arms in by moving the left stick in the respective direction. If you wanted to take an outside pitch the other way, you aimed that way with the left stick and swung away. You did the same thing when trying to hit fly balls (pushed up on the stick) and ground balls (pushed down on the stick). You could also mix in a variety of directions for complete hitting freedom -- up and left for a righty on the left stick was equivalent to a fly ball to the left side of the field. What made this system even better was how organic it felt on the field; the game forced you to go with the pitch that was thrown to you, which meant no pulling outside pitches for moonshot home runs.

The big problem with The Show 09's zone based/PCI hitting scheme is that it does not feel like you have true 1:1 control over your batter's arm extension through the zone. The system seems almost entirely dependent on the timing of your swing to be successful, even on the higher difficulties. My issue with this approach to a hitting system is that control has been taken away from the user, a huge no no to me in sports games. I understand that the PCI is meant to act as a cursor-based hitting system, but it just does not work as fluidly as MVP's system.

I have not even mentioned that PCI is rendered almost completely useless because of the lack of depth perception that is factored into the trajectory of the pitch. For some reason, it is extremely difficult to pick up the break on a slider or 12-6 curve because of a lack of depth on the Y-axis. This may just be personal preference, but every pitch you face while batting seems to be thrown too straight in its trajectory. The resulting feeling does not feel natural, especially on breaking pitches low in the zone. The longer you play the game, the more you start to realize that by the time you are able to adjust your PCI, the pitch has been thrown past you. After three games in my franchise, I realized it was absolutely worthless to even use PCI because I was having far more success simply timing pitches that are grooved down the heart of the plate.

Complete Batting Failure

My biggest gripe with The Show's hitting system -- and something that makes absolutely no sense to me at all -- is that your fly ball, ground ball, pull and push influence is tied to the right stick. At what point did this decision make sense to SCE Studios San Diego?

This is just another aspect of hitting in The Show that takes control away from the user and creates a disconnect when at the dish. If I am a right-handed hitter and want to dig in to push an inside pitch to the right side of the infield, I should be able to do so. The way the hitting system is currently set up, you would have to guess that the pitch was going to be inside, and then before the pitch is thrown use your right stick to take the ball to the right side of the infield.

Sorry SCE, but that is just silly. I should be able to react to the pitch as it is being thrown to me, and if it is inside, be able to pull my hands closer to my body and push the ball to the right side of the infield.

SCE's hitting system feels too complicated for its own good and needs to get back to the "read and react" simplicity that made hitting in MVP feel so natural.

Base Running

Much like hitting, MVP 05's PiP base-running mechanic and analog slides were the the pinnacle of baseball running controls. Not since the days of RBI Baseball had gamers been able to advance around the diamond with such ease. Base running in MLB 09 is by far the game's weakest element.

Navigating the bases feels exceedingly clunky, often times leading to a human-controlled team literally giving outs to the CPU after the ball is put in play. As if the control scheme was not awkward enough, SCE throws in analog steals that borrow heavily from MVP but stops short of re-creating the magic EA's title was able to convey.

MVP 05 introduced one of the most simple and most effective running systems ever. By simply pressing the corresponding face button of the player you wanted to activate, you could advance and retreat players with ease. It was always extremely easy to identify the runner you wanted to control on the fly, and never in five years of dedicated playing did I ever mistakenly advance a runner I did not want to.

The steal system in MVP was also very user friendly, even if it utilized the same basic shoulder button lead mechanics that games had been using for years. Sliding via the analog stick in MVP was also extremely responsive, allowing you to perform six different slides to each base. Picking the correct slide for the correct situation was simple, and it created some highlight-reel moments at second, third and home. Best of all was the fact that you could break up double plays by going in cleats up or purposely sliding outside the basepath.

After playing MVP and appreciating just how good the game plays on the basepaths, The Show 09's controls are downright brutal. Attempting to select a player and advance him individually when the ball is put in play is unnecessarily complicated. The game requires you to contort your fingers between the right-analog stick, face buttons and triggers, while reacting on the fly. The result is an absolute mess. Add in an analog stick slide system that is extremely unresponsive, and you have an aspect of The Show that SCE Studios needs to completely reprogram.

I cannot be the only one wishing that the studio would just do everyone a favor and implement MVP's base-running system button for button. When a sports game establishes such a good precedent, there is nothing wrong with imitation.


Dynasty/Owner Mode

While MVP integrated both a fully fleshed out dynasty mode and owner mode, The Show presents us with a jumbled mess in its hybrid dynasty/owner mode offering.

Anyone who has ever played MVP 05’s owner mode understands just how deep it was. It was the first video game I have ever played that actually made you pay attention to your respective roster moves and player signings because every decision you made affected your financial bottom line. For the first time ever in a baseball game, you were able to forge a financial identity.

The game allowed you to run your club's finances the way you wanted to, even allowing you to build and upgrade a personalized stadium if you wanted to go that route -- I still miss Hank Scorpio Field. Everything in MVP 05’s owner mode revolved around building a winner, getting more fans, increasing income and then spending it however you deemed worthy. It was absolute bliss. All these elements, plus the menu navigation, player management and finance management were all extremely streamlined and user-friendly.

One of the main issues I have with The Show's dynasty mode is that while it implements aspects of both dynasty and owner modes, the complete package does not implement either mode extremely well. It is almost as if the developers were not quite sure what they wanted to do with franchise, so they created a super deep roster and transaction system and then patched a bunch of typical franchise and owner mode aspects to it (team bus anyone?).

The menus also are not streamlined, it is difficult to figure out how to manage your players, and why is my team always complaining that there is not a jacuzzi in the training room?

The Show 09’s franchise mode also fails because money has absolutely no meaning. Is your franchise struggling and in need of an expensive free agent? No problem, go take a loan out from the bank. There are absolutely no consequences for spending like the Yankees in the game, even if you are the Nationals. If there is anything to be learned from today’s real world sports economy, it is that there are spenders and small-market teams. MVP forced you to be careful with your spending or face complete economic failure. In fact, owner mode actually ended if you spent too many years in the red -- there were no government bailouts in MVP baseball in 2004, capitalism was alive and well.

I can see how this would not bother many gamers, and I will admit that it is not a game breaker, but after playing 10-plus years of MVP 05 owner mode, The Show’s franchise mode feels extremely shallow.


With all that has been said in this article, I think it is important to note that I feel The Show 09 is a very solid title. The game is my front runner for game of the year. And, if the game makes the changes I outlined above, it may finally be time to lacquer my copy of MVP 05 on a plaque and hang it next to my wedding picture.

2009 is a great year to be a baseball gamer, but 2004 was even better. As the Dropkick Murphys pointed out in the opening track of EA’s hardball gem, "Tessie is the royal ruler." There is no doubt in my mind that "Tessie" is synonymous with MVP 05.


MLB '09: The Show Videos
Member Comments
# 101 NumberOneRB @ 05/08/09 07:04 PM
It appears many are very critical of the Batter's Eye feature in MVP, and in many ways I can understand your issues. The one thing I think many are exaggerating a bit is the "flash" of the color around the ball as it was being pitched. We're not talking some super bright, "halofication" (I made it up, haha) of the ball here.

The ring of color around the ball was very subtle, just enough for you to be able to determine the color, and (like real life) there were pitchers in the game who were able to "hide" the ball well, thus eliminating the ability to pick up the color of the pitch.

I thought it was a pretty good, although quite basic, way of imitating a real-life batter's ability to pick up the seams of the ball on pitchers who didn't hide the ball well, thus allowing them to determine the pitch type for an added hitting advantage.

It appears that some of you got a bit off topic when beginning the debate about which game had the best pitching mechanics, but to go along with that, in my opinion, I think the Show's pitchin mechanic is the best and ITS NOT EVEN CLOSE. I don't know how someone could make an argument for a pitching mechanic which isn't based on taking the pitch break into account.
 
# 102 jpup @ 05/08/09 07:09 PM
This thread is still open?

Again, why is there an MVP thread in The Show's forum? It makes no sense.
 
# 103 thdudeabides @ 05/08/09 07:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpup
This thread is still open?

Again, why is there an MVP thread in The Show's forum? It makes no sense.
Then why continue to post in it?
 
# 104 jpup @ 05/08/09 07:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thdudeabides
Then why continue to post in it?
to annoy you.
 
# 105 NumberOneRB @ 05/08/09 07:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpup
This thread is still open?

Again, why is there an MVP thread in The Show's forum? It makes no sense.
Its based off an article that involves possible improvements that could be made to the Show. Give it a rest its a discussion forum. You sound like a married man threatened by the appearance of a good looking, single bachelor. Just remember, she chose you...haha.
 
# 106 rudyjuly2 @ 05/08/09 07:50 PM
The base running in the Show, primarily the inability to have an in between level where the cpu makes basic decisions but I can still control the base runners is still missing. I loved that aspect of MVP.
 
# 107 thdudeabides @ 05/08/09 08:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim416
I think what he's saying is, if the title of the thread was "3 things MLB2k does better than The Show", or "3 Things The Show does better than MLB2k" was posted in the 2k forums it wouldn't be allowed. This might have been better posted in the MVP forums, but, just a thought.

Many people will read only the first post, miss what the dev said correcting an error in the original posters post, and then this thread will have a life longer than the Patch Thread, lol.

But..............post away, lol.
I'm new here and I just assumed since this thread is posted on the main OS page as a full blown article, that OS placed the thread in the SCEA form. If that's that case I didn't understand why anyone would be so worked up about it being open. I still don't but I guess you have a point.
 
# 108 bxgoods @ 05/08/09 08:18 PM
MVP Had the best franchise mode out of any sports game to date.
Thats the main reason I can't get into the show, their franchise mode is boring.
MVP, had mini games abust to improve your pitching and batting prospect.
And my favorite part was owner mode, where you actually used the money you earned from tickets to add accessories and improvements to your stadium. ANd you would actually see them in the stadium, it greatly affected how your stadium looked.
Unlike in Madden, when you bought a 40 inch scoreboard, and can't seee it on gameday. You would see everything on gameday in MVP. You could even build restaurants in the upper deck. It was beautiful.
I'm upset no other sports franchise has copied this idea yet.

But the bad side of MVP, it was too easy to hit........... Once you learned the trick of where to wait for a pitch and hold diagonal up-left or diagonal up-right.... it was over. You would jack a HR every at bat, no matter what difficulty.
 
# 109 Artman22 @ 05/08/09 10:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cubfan
The fielding was redone. They take better angles to the ball. Anyway The Show has out done MVP baseball. MVP was to arcade like and MLB The Show is the real thing.
Sorry, I disagree. The show needs work on the fielding. The meter is useless and everything is animation based so the user has less control over a situations. In the show they still delay throws that should be fast. Collision detection, Broken double plays, fielding errors are almost non-existant, Etc. MVP has better fielding, Franchise mode, hitting and more hit variations. The show has great presentation, graphics, pitching, and smooth gameplay. I feel that fielding is one of the shows weakest points.
 
# 110 snugglyirishman @ 05/08/09 10:51 PM
I don't even try to play my RTTS players that are position players because the hitting is so frustrating. I want my RTTS player to be able to hit for average and power but that never happens when I strike out on breaking balls down and away because they look like fastballs down the pipe.
 
# 111 mmorg @ 05/08/09 11:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by snugglyirishman
I don't even try to play my RTTS players that are position players because the hitting is so frustrating. I want my RTTS player to be able to hit for average and power but that never happens when I strike out on breaking balls down and away because they look like fastballs down the pipe.
Oh is this because you don't have the hitter's eye gimmick to make hitting a cakewalk for you? Learn to read the pitch and how to work counts then complain about hitting in The Show.

It seems to me the people who complain about MVP being better than The Show are people who only played little league and want to hit a home run every at-bat.
 
# 112 snugglyirishman @ 05/09/09 01:57 AM
Wow lots of pent up anger to actually go on a forum and insult someone? I was seconding the statement in the article about the lack of perception not that i wanted to hit a homerun every at bat...
 
# 113 GlennN @ 05/09/09 09:51 AM
Actually, for me, baseball in a videogame ended with the height of the High Heat Baseball series, 2002. I still play that on my PC. I have tried MVP 05 on my Xbox, MLB 2k8 on my 360 and MLB 09 on my PSP, but I always find myself going back to HH2k2 on my PC.
 
# 114 SoxChamp @ 05/09/09 09:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennN
Actually, for me, baseball in a videogame ended with the height of the High Heat Baseball series, 2002. I still play that on my PC. I have tried MVP 05 on my Xbox, MLB 2k8 on my 360 and MLB 09 on my PSP, but I always find myself going back to HH2k2 on my PC.
I loved High Heat on the PC as well. But I really can't see myself still playing it. It's really outdated. I think if you'd give The Show a shot on the PS3, you would be pleasantly surprised. It's the first game that I can honestly say is better than High Heat.

And as far as MVP goes, MEH! I was never a fan. I thought it played a horrible game of baseball, and they always neglected us Manage Only folks. For everything that it supposedly had, I still can't believe there was no way to manage a game. To each his own, but it's ridiculous that people are still talking about that game four years later. It's dead. Let...it...go.....
 
# 115 bkrich83 @ 05/09/09 12:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jusmegamer
MVP 05 Is still the standard and I doubt if the changes.
Ummm... No.
 
# 116 OhCanadian @ 05/09/09 12:39 PM
The fact that many are debating the pros and cons of each and that these arguments are very close truly speaks to how great MVP 05 was and still is. I have the Show and love it but I don't understand why the hatin' on this thread being here?

A better baseball game is what we are all after. I don't think the writer dissed the Show that badly at all.
 
# 117 pfunk880 @ 05/09/09 02:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim416
He got some facts wrong, just wondering about this being in this forum.

If we can't start threads comparing MLB2k and The Show, why this one? If you or I would have put a comparison here it probably would have been closed.
Yeah, this is the thing I don't get.

To throw in my two cents, though, after one game I have already put MVP to bed. I saw so much stuff in my game last night that I never did on MVP... longer pitch counts, longer at bats, more walks... and this was all on Veteran with default sliders. Was MVP a great game? Certainly, and I still would be playing it now if the LCD TV I got didn't have lag issues with my PS2. But The Show completely destroys MVP, no doubt in my mind.
 
# 118 Acedeck @ 05/09/09 02:50 PM
Good article. I agree with a lot, and I disagree with a lot.

The hitting is both good and bad in MVP, in my eyes. It's good because you have the control, as you mention, but I can't stand the lack of location hitting. When the ball goes outside, goes a little down and in, I don't want to strictly swing based on my arm motion. I want t swing based on location.

I really loved the hitter's eye in MVP. I do wish they brought that to The Show. It's far more real than guess pitch, though I don't use guess pitch. I WISH they'd implement this feature.

Baserunning was better in MVP, I agree there.

The Dynasty/Owner mode was very good in MVP, though the hot dog prices and such go a little beyond what I care about in a sports game. I really got a kick out of the stadium builder feature, where you could slowly upgrade your new stadium over the course of time, as you *earned* money (not taking out a loan from the piggy bank).
 
# 119 Glenn33 @ 05/09/09 04:10 PM
I don't think MVP did anything better. That game was overated.
 
# 120 k_bassuka @ 05/09/09 05:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn33
I don't think MVP did anything better. That game was overated.
And this is even more overated than MVP. This game is even worst than last year The Show (Glitch) version.
 


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