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Three Things MVP 05 Still Does Better

MLB 09: The Show has been out for over a month, and many baseball gaming enthusiasts have hailed the game as the best baseball video game ever. As a baseball elitist myself, there is no denying that the game is extremely impressive.

It has been five solid years since I have enjoyed a baseball game as much as this year's iteration of The Show. Because of this enjoyment level, I have found myself glued to my PS3 cultivating my Road to the Show career and running a somewhat successful Detroit Tigers dynasty.

Still, as with most sports games, the more time I have been able to spend with The Show, the more nagging issues I have run into. These issues have left me yearning for something more from a baseball title, something only MVP Baseball 05 was ever able to satisfy. Of course, MVP 05 is still held in high regards throughout the virtual baseball community, and is still being played religiously on both PC and consoles because of a very active modding community.

The point is, while The Show is a fantastic effort, it is still lagging behind MVP 05 in three very key areas. But, with a few small improvements to the 2010 version of The Show, MVP 05 can perhaps be retired for good.


One thing MVP still does better is the hitting.

Batting


MVP 05's Hitter's Eye and left stick influence mechanics were the best additions to video game baseball hitting ever. As someone who played high-level baseball, I can really appreciate just how well MVP implemented both of these mechanics into their final MLB title. The Show's guess pitch feature, coupled with the zone- and timing-based hitting schemes are adequate, but for seasoned MVP veterans, it feels as if crucial control is being taken out of your hands while at the plate.

Hitter's Eye vs. Guess Pitch

MVP's Hitter's Eye was a complete stroke of genius. Anyone that knows a lick about real-life hitting knows that the key to being successful is picking up the ball the moment it becomes visible. This technique is so crucial that pitchers have been taught to vary release points and arm angles in an attempt to hide the ball a fraction of a second longer from a hitter.

The Hitter's Eye picked up on this technique, giving pitchers who were more successful at hiding the ball in real life the ability to defy the Hitter's Eye within the game. Simply put, the Hitter's Eye added a critical layer to the pitcher/batter showdown that made for one of the most realistic batting experiences ever.

The Show 09's guess pitch feature poorly attempts to replicate hitting in the sport of baseball. For a title that prides itself on realism and authenticity, it boggles my mind why this feature makes it into the series year in and year out. There is no doubt that Major League batters may take a certain approach at the plate or sit on a pitch, but by no means do they ever "guess" as to what pitch is going to be thrown to them.

Hitting is about reading a pitch off the pitcher's hand and reacting accordingly. Even if Derek Jeter goes to the plate with the mindset of sitting on a fastball, he is not going to simply guess fastball, mentally lock into seeing a fastball, and then get some type of feedback that he guessed correctly as soon as the pitcher begins his wind-up. Guess pitch fails miserably to replicate actual hitting in baseball, and it has no place in baseball games released in 2009.

Left Stick Influence vs. Zone Hitting/PCI

What could be the most frustrating aspect of MLB 09's batting system is its zone hitting scheme. Just as the Hitter's Eye did, MVP 05's left stick hitting system raised the bar for video game hitting systems to another level. The beauty of the MVP left-stick system was that it accurately simulated a batter's arm extension and height through the hitting zone, which allowed you to influence your hit type.

In real life, proper hitting in the zone is all about timing and arm extension/retraction -- you pull the inside pitch and you go the other way with the outside pitch. If you were being pounded inside in MVP, you simply pulled your arms in by moving the left stick in the respective direction. If you wanted to take an outside pitch the other way, you aimed that way with the left stick and swung away. You did the same thing when trying to hit fly balls (pushed up on the stick) and ground balls (pushed down on the stick). You could also mix in a variety of directions for complete hitting freedom -- up and left for a righty on the left stick was equivalent to a fly ball to the left side of the field. What made this system even better was how organic it felt on the field; the game forced you to go with the pitch that was thrown to you, which meant no pulling outside pitches for moonshot home runs.

The big problem with The Show 09's zone based/PCI hitting scheme is that it does not feel like you have true 1:1 control over your batter's arm extension through the zone. The system seems almost entirely dependent on the timing of your swing to be successful, even on the higher difficulties. My issue with this approach to a hitting system is that control has been taken away from the user, a huge no no to me in sports games. I understand that the PCI is meant to act as a cursor-based hitting system, but it just does not work as fluidly as MVP's system.

I have not even mentioned that PCI is rendered almost completely useless because of the lack of depth perception that is factored into the trajectory of the pitch. For some reason, it is extremely difficult to pick up the break on a slider or 12-6 curve because of a lack of depth on the Y-axis. This may just be personal preference, but every pitch you face while batting seems to be thrown too straight in its trajectory. The resulting feeling does not feel natural, especially on breaking pitches low in the zone. The longer you play the game, the more you start to realize that by the time you are able to adjust your PCI, the pitch has been thrown past you. After three games in my franchise, I realized it was absolutely worthless to even use PCI because I was having far more success simply timing pitches that are grooved down the heart of the plate.

Complete Batting Failure

My biggest gripe with The Show's hitting system -- and something that makes absolutely no sense to me at all -- is that your fly ball, ground ball, pull and push influence is tied to the right stick. At what point did this decision make sense to SCE Studios San Diego?

This is just another aspect of hitting in The Show that takes control away from the user and creates a disconnect when at the dish. If I am a right-handed hitter and want to dig in to push an inside pitch to the right side of the infield, I should be able to do so. The way the hitting system is currently set up, you would have to guess that the pitch was going to be inside, and then before the pitch is thrown use your right stick to take the ball to the right side of the infield.

Sorry SCE, but that is just silly. I should be able to react to the pitch as it is being thrown to me, and if it is inside, be able to pull my hands closer to my body and push the ball to the right side of the infield.

SCE's hitting system feels too complicated for its own good and needs to get back to the "read and react" simplicity that made hitting in MVP feel so natural.

Base Running

Much like hitting, MVP 05's PiP base-running mechanic and analog slides were the the pinnacle of baseball running controls. Not since the days of RBI Baseball had gamers been able to advance around the diamond with such ease. Base running in MLB 09 is by far the game's weakest element.

Navigating the bases feels exceedingly clunky, often times leading to a human-controlled team literally giving outs to the CPU after the ball is put in play. As if the control scheme was not awkward enough, SCE throws in analog steals that borrow heavily from MVP but stops short of re-creating the magic EA's title was able to convey.

MVP 05 introduced one of the most simple and most effective running systems ever. By simply pressing the corresponding face button of the player you wanted to activate, you could advance and retreat players with ease. It was always extremely easy to identify the runner you wanted to control on the fly, and never in five years of dedicated playing did I ever mistakenly advance a runner I did not want to.

The steal system in MVP was also very user friendly, even if it utilized the same basic shoulder button lead mechanics that games had been using for years. Sliding via the analog stick in MVP was also extremely responsive, allowing you to perform six different slides to each base. Picking the correct slide for the correct situation was simple, and it created some highlight-reel moments at second, third and home. Best of all was the fact that you could break up double plays by going in cleats up or purposely sliding outside the basepath.

After playing MVP and appreciating just how good the game plays on the basepaths, The Show 09's controls are downright brutal. Attempting to select a player and advance him individually when the ball is put in play is unnecessarily complicated. The game requires you to contort your fingers between the right-analog stick, face buttons and triggers, while reacting on the fly. The result is an absolute mess. Add in an analog stick slide system that is extremely unresponsive, and you have an aspect of The Show that SCE Studios needs to completely reprogram.

I cannot be the only one wishing that the studio would just do everyone a favor and implement MVP's base-running system button for button. When a sports game establishes such a good precedent, there is nothing wrong with imitation.


Dynasty/Owner Mode

While MVP integrated both a fully fleshed out dynasty mode and owner mode, The Show presents us with a jumbled mess in its hybrid dynasty/owner mode offering.

Anyone who has ever played MVP 05’s owner mode understands just how deep it was. It was the first video game I have ever played that actually made you pay attention to your respective roster moves and player signings because every decision you made affected your financial bottom line. For the first time ever in a baseball game, you were able to forge a financial identity.

The game allowed you to run your club's finances the way you wanted to, even allowing you to build and upgrade a personalized stadium if you wanted to go that route -- I still miss Hank Scorpio Field. Everything in MVP 05’s owner mode revolved around building a winner, getting more fans, increasing income and then spending it however you deemed worthy. It was absolute bliss. All these elements, plus the menu navigation, player management and finance management were all extremely streamlined and user-friendly.

One of the main issues I have with The Show's dynasty mode is that while it implements aspects of both dynasty and owner modes, the complete package does not implement either mode extremely well. It is almost as if the developers were not quite sure what they wanted to do with franchise, so they created a super deep roster and transaction system and then patched a bunch of typical franchise and owner mode aspects to it (team bus anyone?).

The menus also are not streamlined, it is difficult to figure out how to manage your players, and why is my team always complaining that there is not a jacuzzi in the training room?

The Show 09’s franchise mode also fails because money has absolutely no meaning. Is your franchise struggling and in need of an expensive free agent? No problem, go take a loan out from the bank. There are absolutely no consequences for spending like the Yankees in the game, even if you are the Nationals. If there is anything to be learned from today’s real world sports economy, it is that there are spenders and small-market teams. MVP forced you to be careful with your spending or face complete economic failure. In fact, owner mode actually ended if you spent too many years in the red -- there were no government bailouts in MVP baseball in 2004, capitalism was alive and well.

I can see how this would not bother many gamers, and I will admit that it is not a game breaker, but after playing 10-plus years of MVP 05 owner mode, The Show’s franchise mode feels extremely shallow.


With all that has been said in this article, I think it is important to note that I feel The Show 09 is a very solid title. The game is my front runner for game of the year. And, if the game makes the changes I outlined above, it may finally be time to lacquer my copy of MVP 05 on a plaque and hang it next to my wedding picture.

2009 is a great year to be a baseball gamer, but 2004 was even better. As the Dropkick Murphys pointed out in the opening track of EA’s hardball gem, "Tessie is the royal ruler." There is no doubt in my mind that "Tessie" is synonymous with MVP 05.


MLB '09: The Show Videos
Member Comments
# 61 WatchdogXC @ 05/08/09 09:55 AM
After seeing the first screenshot, I thought you'd mention the pitch feedback being better knowing how early or late you were or the check swing feedback. I much prefer the hitting in the Show because I can't hit a home run on every fast ball up and in. I loved MVP 2005 and played it for over 3 years before I got my PS3 and the Show, but it shows its age now. I tried going back to it after playing the Show last year and I just couldn't finish a game. It was way too easy to pitch as I could spot every pitch where I wanted to.

The main thing I liked about MVP better than the Show was the fielding throw meter. I really liked the difference in abilities on how easy it was to make a hard throw. It was a staggering difference going from Omar Vizquel in 2004 to using Jhonny Peralta in 2005 defensively.

I personally don't have a problem with The Show's baserunning controls. They make perfect sense to me.

I still wish either game would have let you put anyone on the DL regardless of injury like the All Star baseball games did on N64.
 
# 62 huskerfan4life @ 05/08/09 09:59 AM
I agree with you 100% I would hope that the SCEA people on this site would try to implement these next yr
 
# 63 MFazio23 @ 05/08/09 10:22 AM
I agree with a lot that you said about MVP, but it seemed like you moreso just wanted to bash The Show rather than praise MVP.

You seemed to undermine your points by talking about what The Show does wrong more than what MVP does right.
 
# 64 EWRMETS @ 05/08/09 10:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkrich83
I couldn't disagree more. I have the PC version of MVP 05, and feel it's the one of the most overrated games of all time. I think due to it's premature demise, people seem to place it in higher esteem than it should be.

I agree with the article on the baserunning, I hate the baserunning in the MLB series, imo, it's always beeen counter intuitive.

But to that end, I hated the hitting and pitching systems in MVP 05, particularly the hitting system, and I felt it's results were questionable at best. I love the fact that in The Show ratings matter, and there are a plethora of them. In MVP the hitting system, and ratings system felt way dumbed down. Power hitter up? Press up and inside and wait for an inside pitch. Whammo home run.

I also felt the franchise setup in MVP was ok, but not great, and somewhat simplistic.
Spot on. I missed MVP when I didn't have a PS3 and was stuck with 2k but now that I have the Show, there is no comparison. Even if the Show didn't have the best presentation of any sports game in history, the gameplay alone is ten times more advanced than MVP.
 
# 65 hitstreak13 @ 05/08/09 11:39 AM
I am strictly a franchise guy. Having MLB 09 the show has been a great experience. The graphics, gameplay, commentary, RTTS, etc. have all been superior. Franchise of the show is freakn fantastic, but just couldn't get into it (to each his own). However, I have to agree with this gentlemans' article in regards to franchise in MVP 05. In this franchise mode, you do have to set your own payroll for fear of forfeiting your franchise due to lack of funds. Hell, I am playing one right now on my ps3 as the Nationals and am having a ball with it.

No sports game has been able to match 05's franchise at all. The concept of starting with a few million and trying to build a unique stadium all the while trying to field a competitive team required tons of strategy. Try signing a trio of guy for over $400 million (like the Yanks) as the Nationals and see how long you last, not very long. Baseball requires immense strategy on and off the field and MVP 05 did a fantastic job in implementing this. In my franchise, I am $2.5 million in debt, despite a payroll of only $52 million (50 games in). This will force me to either cut payroll or add talent. However, in adding talent, I have to make sure that the daily expense that I pay him would not exceed the increase in daily revenues or I would even lose more money.

Like I said, the show is a freakn fantastic game and I do play it a few times a week, but their franchise need a little tweaking. I'm sure if MLB 10 incorporates create a stadium and/or team, uses MVP's franchise model, and tweaks it's transportation system, MVP 05 will no longer be talked about.
 
# 66 HustlinOwl @ 05/08/09 12:38 PM
Why is this being posted on The Show forums?
 
# 67 slickdtc @ 05/08/09 12:39 PM
I think I've played enough of MLB 09 The Show to form an opinion on this. God knows I've played way past my share of MVP Baseball 2005 (just on the XBOX). I'll break it down into categories:

Pitching - Lots of different opinions on this regarding MLB 09. Personally, I went with Classic interface. I didn't like that the Meter pitching in MLB 09 didn't determine where the pitch was going. I understand it shouldn't always be perfect when you hit it in the sweet spot, but it always felt like it was just a dummy interface, like my input didn't matter. I'd rather have it go fully off ratings and sliders using the Classic interface. They do a good job of showing that you don't always have control over where the ball is going. Though I'd like to see some guys be able to spot pitches most of the time, pitchers that are notorious for their control. Obviously, MVP 05 let you spot your pitch pretty much all the time. Hardly ever gave up any walks. I guess I learned to deal with this, but as a simulation, yes, it should have been changed. I'll give the nod to MLB 09 here.

Batting - I like both the systems, to be honest. I think MVP was a bit too easy to influence where the ball was going. However, I loved the hit variety in MVP. I don't feel like I have as much control with it in MLB 09. Which maybe, that's how it should be. Neither is bad by any means though. I guess we'll take a split here. I think they both do a good job.

Fielding - I just don't like MLB 09's fielding at all. The fielders don't have a sense of urgency some times, the throwing meter means nothing, balls go through your guy. It's just not good and something they definitely need to look at next year. MVP, on the other hand, is one of the few games that really pulled off fielding well. Best fielding in a baseball game I've ever played. Animations were good, throwing meter actually worked, I liked the diving controls. I guess you'd see a ball go through a guy every now and then, but I don't know... it just didn't happen to me as much as it does in MLB 09. Definitely give the edge here to MVP 05.

Baserunning - You know, at first I didn't like MLB 09's controls. But as I play more, I'm really getting used to them. The "New" controls are basically opposite of how MVP's were (using left analog stick to select runner instead of the face button... then of course, face buttons were to tell where to go instead of the D-pad like in MVP). I saw that the "Classic" controls were what MVP had but I had actually grown accustomed to "New" that I was having trouble going back. Imagine that. So after practice, it's become pretty natural to me. Of course, I loved MVP's as well. I'm sure they took practice when I first started playing that game. They were flawless once I got used to them. But the actual baserunning in the game, specifically stealing, is way different. MLB's poor, there's no two ways about it. You have to be an expert to steal successfully on a pitcher using the "go early" method. And the other method, hitting L2, is a complete crapshoot. Also, you get picked off the base wayyy too much. Even with the slider all the way down. MVP, I feel, did a great job with stealing. And the sliders really worked for the stealing. You'd get picked off, but not nearly as much as you do in MLB. MVP gets the nod here because of the stealing.

So that's 2 wins for MVP, 1 for MLB, and 1 wash. But I think they're pretty even... both battles between pitching and batter were great. MVP did the fielding better, though that can be rectified with Auto fielding in MLB. But it's the stealing that really sets MVP apart from MLB 09. It really does take a big part of the game and that's what's holding MLB 09 back for me.
 
# 68 ehh @ 05/08/09 12:42 PM
The only time I've gotten the itch to play MVP '05 PC in the last two months was the other day when I had a game in my Yanks franchise at Detroit where in a tie game I hit three balls that were perfect/wheelhouse and all three wound up being harmless groundballs right at an infielder. It was with Tex, A-Rod and Posada too. The randomness of hitting gets me a little PO'd sometimes. I just kinda shrug my shoulders and stare at my TV like, "Well, what else am I suppose to do?".
 
# 69 Shinyhubcaps @ 05/08/09 01:15 PM
I don't get the hate for Guess Pitch. It's a video game. Some accommodations have to be made to bridge the virtual gap and make the game more interesting for the player. The same is true for the pitch meter. You could say, "Oh, real baseball players don't have to press buttons to choose pitches" or whatever, but the point is, it's a video game, and it will never replicate the actual thing.

As to whether or not batters guess pitches and location, they do. In a double-play situation, you look for pitches low and at the corners. In 2-0 counts, you look for low fastballs. You can still guess pitches and not swing, and vise versa. It's not an absolute system, but it is somewhat realistic. More importantly, it's a good tool in the game.
 
# 70 Bumble14 @ 05/08/09 01:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinyhubcaps
I don't get the hate for Guess Pitch. It's a video game. Some accommodations have to be made to bridge the virtual gap and make the game more interesting for the player. The same is true for the pitch meter. You could say, "Oh, real baseball players don't have to press buttons to choose pitches" or whatever, but the point is, it's a video game, and it will never replicate the actual thing.

As to whether or not batters guess pitches and location, they do. In a double-play situation, you look for pitches low and at the corners. In 2-0 counts, you look for low fastballs. You can still guess pitches and not swing, and vise versa. It's not an absolute system, but it is somewhat realistic. More importantly, it's a good tool in the game.
I understand your point, but "guessing" a pitch, and "looking" for a certain pitch are completely different things.

When at the plate you can be looking for a specific pitch, say low fastball like in your example. As a hitter, you are not going to pick that low fastball up until you get a solid read of the release point of the pitch to #1 verify you are getting a fastball, and #2 read how the pitch is moving. This is what MVP hitter's eye was able to convey that guess pitch is not.

The key difference is that in real life even if you step to the plate with the mindset that you will sit on a low fastball, you are not going to be tipped of that decision as the pitcher begins his windup like in The Show.

Hitter's eye may have been gimmicky, but it simulated the plate vision of a true at bat- guess pitch is gimmicky for the sake of being gimmicky.
 
# 71 Kado456 @ 05/08/09 01:40 PM
I've read through the responses here, and it would appear the main ingredient that people are glossing over is the "MOD" factor of MVP. I know this may be a little unfair towards the show, but my "Modded" version of MVP is hands down the best baseball game I own. The mod factor is what is keeping MVP alive, and anybody that has had the joy of enjoying some of the superior datafiles available for the game knows what I'm talking about, if you haven't experienced a modded version of this game then your are truly missing its true beauty.

As far as out the box, one thing MVP has that wasn't mentioned is the user controlled "MAnager Arguements" the Show has to put this in the game next year.
 
# 72 kehlis @ 05/08/09 01:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinyhubcaps
I don't get the hate for Guess Pitch. It's a video game. Some accommodations have to be made to bridge the virtual gap and make the game more interesting for the player. The same is true for the pitch meter. You could say, "Oh, real baseball players don't have to press buttons to choose pitches" or whatever, but the point is, it's a video game, and it will never replicate the actual thing.

As to whether or not batters guess pitches and location, they do. In a double-play situation, you look for pitches low and at the corners. In 2-0 counts, you look for low fastballs. You can still guess pitches and not swing, and vise versa. It's not an absolute system, but it is somewhat realistic. More importantly, it's a good tool in the game.
I agree with a good portion of what you are saying.

But why would a batter be looking for low pitches in dp situation let alone a 2-0 count, I used to look for something I could drive up in the zone and liked to stay away from low pitches which are more likely to cause ground balls than high pitches.

There is a reason pitchers attempt to keep the ball low in the zone in DP situations.
 
# 73 countryboy @ 05/08/09 01:44 PM
I'll just say that I would take the Show over MVP. Why? Because back in the day, I took All Star Baseball over MVP.
 
# 74 clownbaby @ 05/08/09 01:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryboy
I'll just say that I would take the Show over MVP. Why? Because back in the day, I took All Star Baseball over MVP.
Second that
 
# 75 Bumble14 @ 05/08/09 01:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryboy
I'll just say that I would take the Show over MVP. Why? Because back in the day, I took All Star Baseball over MVP.
Ohh, you're one of "those" guys. I was wondering how long it would take to get your kind involved in this discussion

Just kidding. All Star was a great franchise as well- never quite got to MVP level for me, but it was a gem back in the N64 days.
 
# 76 OhCanadian @ 05/08/09 02:07 PM
Beautiful article. I agree with 90% of what you said. MLB 09 is still a great game though and has FINALLY allowed me to put away my Xbox MVP 05 for good.
 
# 77 countryboy @ 05/08/09 02:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumble14
Ohh, you're one of "those" guys. I was wondering how long it would take to get your kind involved in this discussion

Just kidding. All Star was a great franchise as well- never quite got to MVP level for me, but it was a gem back in the N64 days.
All Star lacked the on-field explosion to truly be an icon of baseball gaming. But off the field, it was pure baseball.
 
# 78 hitstreak13 @ 05/08/09 02:42 PM
All star was a pretty solid game. However, the point system and lack of sliders (there wasn't any) ruined the game for me.

Does anyone remember game impact? This is perhaps the best thing in sport gaming history. Yankees/Redsox matches will always be a 10/10 come August and September. Every game will be sold out. That was pure innovation right there. No other game has been able to duplicate that marvelous franchise feature.
 
# 79 acarrero @ 05/08/09 03:14 PM
Personally, I'm not a fan of Hitter's eye. It just confuses me to see a red ball or green ball. If you take hitter's eye off, in MVP you can still see the different rotation of the ball as soon as it leaves the pitchers hand. To me it has the same effect as hitters eye and feels more realistic than watching a purple ball light up in the pitchers hand.

Also, lets not forget it was actually MVP 06: NCAA Baseball that blew away all other hitting systems with the original analog batting. To this day, it is still the best system for batting on any baseball game out there IMO.
 
# 80 adembroski @ 05/08/09 03:20 PM
MVP's hitting system is the primary reason I haven't bothered to pick up the show. Pitching issues in MVP are solved by 3rd party tweaks.

MVP 05 as edited by the community is the most realistic baseball game ever, period. That's my #1 requirement for a game, and you simply cannot beat MVPs hitting system.
 


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