12:13 AM - April 30, 2012 by jpdavis82Madden NFL 13 News Post
12:13 AM - April 30, 2012 by jpdavis82Madden NFL 13 Videos
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i said that i dont see, notice, or have been aware of pass interference happening in the game, I just dont see it happening in reference to what your saying. thats why I was asking for a video that you might have to show me the example that your referring to.
im making my own video so hopefully you can point it out to me
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# 143
baller7345 @ 05/04/12 02:27 PM
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Some routes are a bit glitchy. I know the post corner is absolutely nuts to stop as it beats pretty much every coverage in the game by itself. The snap motion throws (which luckily should be toned down with the new passing system) have always been a bit glitchy/exploitative in the way they work as well since using routes such as the Corner Strike routes where the receiver shouldn't be looking for the ball right at the snap (which isn't a problem going into next year unless some people learn to user catch quick throws). Now everything here can be stopped but it is still much more difficult to stop it than it rightfully should be.
As for nanos, you are correct in stating that the old version of a nano where you'd never get the snap off and there was no way to pick it up are gone but things like the Shake Blitz (speed boost for strafing sideways...) or turbo blitzes (notable 2-4-5 Over Storm Brave) are very glitchy in execution and results. Things like being able to send 3 or 4 guys and free up a DT running straight up the middle because the line prioritizes LB's over that DT is really starting to push the boundries between solid pressure scheme and straight up Madden exploit.
The one thing about the tourney crowd that really irks the sim crowd is when you have things like Truth stating (mostly when he is talking about playing random people) if it was a game against a tourney player he would know exactly what formation he was coming out in every single play because that is how the game works. I think he used the example of how he himself used to come out in Singleback Tight Flex no matter what and go from there.
The sim crowd understands that you need to make adjustments but we also don't understand how finding a formation that has about 4-5 plays that beat just about everything in the game if done right is fun. I know a couple of fairly good freestyle players who litterally run no more than 5 plays because they are so effective. For me adjustments aren't just about making hot routes from a base play (though with the way Madden represents base coverages its almost necessary on defense) but is also heavily rooted in knowing your entire playbook like the back of your hand. This also applies to having a general knowledge of football concepts which I know not every high level (not necessarily tournament level) actually has when it comes to Madden. Now from reading your posts over the last few days its clear you don't fall into that category and I'm sure a lot of other players don't as well but I've seen several occasions where fairly skilled players have admitted to never playing football (not that big of a deal), never actually tried to understand real football strategy, and see no reason to understand actual football to play madden (this is what sim players despise about some of the freestyle crowd, to the sim side of the argument its like disrespecting the game).
I feel like I'm doing a horrible job of fully explaining my outlook on this issue so I'll give threads that do a better job than this on the subject.
Sim? There is no sim, just try to win (one thing that is completely off topic that comes up in this is the idea of 3 minute quarters for tourney games. I have never understood the reasoning behind the common 4 minute quarters in the first place. Why use short quarters if your goal is to stop random chance from deciding a game, via fumbles and what not. With 4 minute quarters you litterally can run the entire clock out in 6-7 plays. One 14 play drive and you have taken an entire half away. One random fumble can change the entire game where as longer quarters would change that)
Sim Franchise Discussion
Sim Style the way to go
I've really got to stop with these novels...
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You show me one look Im checking down to the play that I know will be that look. Unless you make adjustments Im going to beat you.
In a nut shell what I think of both crowds is this...
Freestyle players adjust to what there seeing.
Sim players do not adjust to that same level.
I think that has to do with the fact that a Sim player from my understanding is more likely to just say screw the 155 blitz its unstoppable and its not real, this game sucks.
While the freestyle player from my understanding is more likely to say, ok the 155 is effective and people will use it on me when $140,000 is on the line, HOW can I stop it, how can I make them pay for using it.
Hopefully that gave some insight on what I think the freestyle community thinks lol another novel haha
thanks man I really appreciate all these convos. thanks goes out to big fn deal, illustrator, baller, road, and everyone else
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what grinds my gears is when someone can come in using a strip animation as a tackle and make me fumble 2-3 times a game EVEN when i cover up - literally every game.
thats when i get fired up about something. My biggest thing with this whole DPI conversation is i dont see it happening in the game causing situations where it prohibits the recever from catching the ball on a consisten basis eveyr game
# 146
baller7345 @ 05/04/12 03:45 PM
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The idea that sim players aren't playing to win (I think you mentioned it somewhere...if not then it'll least get this aspect of my thinking out there) or not trying as hard to win is ridiculous in my mind. I go into every game expecting to win just like you do however I simply refuse to use some of the tactics that you are fine with. I see how unrealistic certain things play out and my own personal idea of the how the game of football should be played stops me from utilizing them. Its sort of like the concept of honor and chivalry from a soldier's standpoint. Perhaps I am the British trying to fight a war using the convential line up and shoot at each other fashion while the freestyle crowd is the Americans popping out from behind tress and utilizing guerrilla tactics. Perhaps its pointless to try and fight a battle using what may be archaic tactics and pointless moral limitations but its how my mind works.
I put more time in this game than is probably healthy, breaking down playbooks (I have 3 full breakdowns on Maddenschool), finding blitzes that use real world pressure schemes, and implemented things I read straight off of Smartfootball and sites like Blitzology (if you like defense and smart football you'll love this one). I probably spent well over 40 hours working exclusively on Cross Fire blitzes. I could get edge pressure or DT/DE pressure but that wasn't what I wanted. I wanted them to work like that Cross Fire video I posted on one of the other conversations we had. I tried desperately to find a way to make the cross criss cross the offensive line's protections in a realistic manner to get A gap pressure from the ILB's and for the most part failed spectacularly and in many cases my trials and errors were on full display (albeit it in text form)
Looping Blitzes
Cross Fire Blitz
Now all this trial and error eventually led to me discovering a zone cross fire blitz that I could actually say worked well enough that it wasn't totally reliant on a block shed. It luckily came out of the 2-4-5 which I run as a base. Because of this Cross Fire 0 and Cross Fire 3 Seam are my two favorite blitzes in the game not because they are the most effective that I run (especially the fire zone blitz) but because I spent so much time working on making a real world concept work and actually managed to come up with something that is wholly unique and mine. I wish more people took my approach to scheming because honestly the Madden community is largely boring when it comes to varrying blitzing schemes. There isn't a lot of variety in what you can find from various sites, they all use pretty much the same concepts or for that matter slightly different setups from the same plays. Its frustrating to see all these blitz concepts that the game has but to have absolutely no one out there other than myself who have explored them.
I feel I'm once again straying from my original premise on what I was intending to explain but I tend to just start typing and let it go where it goes.
Ok back to the bold bit where you say that sim players don't adjust to the same level. I can't speak for all sim players but I'd say I adjust just as much as any freestyle player. Of course it is necessary to develop that skill as for a sim player to actually continually win their local launch tournies in order to keep getting free copies of the game
(3 years running). While an event like that doesn't usually have a ton of top tier competition trying to go at it completely sim and relying on the base defensive plays to win you the game is naive.However on offense where you say you are adjusting I say you are being lazy (not you personally...kind of generalizing here). People state time and again that they hot route plays because the base plays are terrible but they often fail to realize that those base plays are typically the actual concepts ran in the NFL. They do work for the most part as long as you understand what they actually are designed to beat. It drives me crazy to see a tip where a guy calls something like Bench, Slot Outs, Fork, PA Scissors, etc. and then hot route the passing concept out of the play. I know just about everyone runs the Corner Streak version of Bench but
that is what my brain is doing every time someone says they are running bench. There is no high low read after you turn it into a weird 4 verts shakes concept. Same thing when people go and murder the triangle stretch that comes from Z-spot. Now I understand that from a game stand point some things are simply more effective than running real life concepts but if it isn't frustrating to see people butcher perfectly good passing concepts because they seemingly don't understand what they were designed to do in the first place.Also in response to the last sentence in your post. These are the type of Madden conversations that I love to be a part of. They can freely discuss the community issues (sim vs freestyle) while also discussing how to improve the game without degrading into a huge mess of insults. One of the big reasons I stick to Madden School so much is because its members tend to be more open to other styles of play while still being able to discuss it. Well that and the fact that they showed the most love for my Packer playbook breakdown.
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Most players call cover 3 zone and Bench with streaks is IMO the best way to attack a cover 3. We try and teach people to play madden on a large scale and in doing so I use different terminology that everyone can understand.
yellow zone instead of hook
purple instead of buzz etc.
You can most certainly user bench to attack zone but IMO hot routing it into a 4 verticals concept works better. Just as taking any strong flood play and changing the deep out to a slant out or curl, IMO, is better then the deep out. Mainly bc the deep out takes longer to develope and if i use the curl or the slant out it will accomplish the same thing I was trying to do with strong flood.
check out the strategy guide we wrote that was in stores this year. i think there was about 28ish different style passing concepts that we broke down in the book - however in the game and with hot routes it is often times better to make your own adjustments to plays.
for example...
Falcon Cross Gun Tight Flex - the shallow crosses on this specific plays often run into each other so I like to slant in one of the receivers so it gives them different depths so they dont run into each other. I could hot route my left slot WR to a deep out in combo with the wheel rotue to attack zone coverage but i can do it much faster and easier if I just place him on a slant out
that type stuff
# 148
Illustrator76 @ 05/04/12 04:05 PM
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If I (being the Detroit Lions) run a 5-2 front with Corey Williams, Ndamukong Suh and Nick Fairley at DT and Stephen Tulloch as my MLB, then (based off of the ratings in Madden) I should be able to stuff the RUN pretty consistently. But in Madden I can't, not even close to it. Why? The 5-2 is broken as hell. I have even seen Defensive Linemen turn around and run BACKWARDS on many run plays instead of tackling a RB right in front of them. Now, that kind of stuff disgusts a sim head to no end, while a tourney guy will simply find some unrealistic formation out of the Dime package, hot-route & re-blitz half the defense and then somehow manage to stop every play in the game, run or pass. Sim heads get so disgusted that realistic strategies and tactics do not work in Madden that they say: "Screw it, I'm done", while the tourney guys say: "I'll find another way around this, even if it isn't totally based off of real life football principles".
For tourney guys, the end justifies the means, and they don't care, as long as they win. For sim heads it's more about the journey than the final destination, even though we want to win just as much as the next guy.
# 149
baller7345 @ 05/04/12 04:05 PM
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i acknowledged it needs to be fixed totally. but i would never bash the game and or not play it or say its the worst game on the planet because of it. when nothing negative towards the gameplay is a result of it
(not that you are) just a general statement about it
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Try to play like my team does.
And with your quote above, I feel that is where the disconnect is. Not having PI called in an offline game for an offline franchise for a football game that is trying to simulate the NFL is a negative.
To me and I think others, it does effect game play. I don't think we are looking for a negative or positive impact, just some kind of rally enticing impact.
On Sundays, in a two minute drill, when everyone is trying to line up and get to the line or in a no huddle, and the QB heaves up a long pass and PI is called.
Don't you feel that is a game changing moment? Instead of the ball on your own 35, now you have a 1st down with over a minute left and the ball on your opponents 35. Now, the chances of scoring a TD or FG before the half are greater.
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On the other hand, I'm not sure why this discussion is continuing on. It's just a regurgitation of the same points with neither side giving up any ground.
Someone has to wave the white flag, no? LOL
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Just saying.
I fully agree with Big F, its not even remotely close to playing football at all when playing these tourney players. I mean in the NFL I'm sure coaches are pulling out there best stuff all the time but someone has to win. But the point is that these teams are not finding loopholes in the coaching or refereeing the game to achieve success.
I see most players run atleast these 3-4 routes a game with great success to the same spot on the field to the same wr.
Slants deep
Post corner to the TE or the slot
Or that mysterious quick out pass that has the intended wr 5yds or more up field the second the ball is hiked
And the curl route that seems to always work when the wr isn't looking and your defender is.but the animation won't let you get to the ball before the wr does.
Just tourney style is a style that shouldn't even exist, to me tourney style means I'm bringing my "A game" and trying to do my best at beating my opponent playing football.
Freestyle term seems weird, I think it should have more to do with just running a certain type of offense and defense without exploiting the game. Yet its all that and some.
The biggest copy cat tourney scheme that killed my nerve was the use and abuse of jermichael finley being put at wr the whole game and rocket catching every pass thrown to him. But in order to achieve success in stopping or slowing it down was to either nano or shake blitz to get pressure if you didn't have a man on Jim to press him at the line long enough to force a throwes elsewhere. It was either for a while intolerable someone found a sort of stable def playmaker to counter this, but it still would be a crap shoot.
If you feel you good without these cheap tactics like most of the freestyle community seems to feel they are, then why even bother playing this way and ruining someone else enjoyment when the name of the game is Madden NFL Football, not blitz or NFL Jam.
I see most players run atleast these 3-4 routes a game with great success to the same spot on the field to the same wr.
Slants deep
Post corner to the TE or the slot
Or that mysterious quick out pass that has the intended wr 5yds or more up field the second the ball is hiked
And the curl route that seems to always work when the wr isn't looking and your defender is.but the animation won't let you get to the ball before the wr does.
Just tourney style is a style that shouldn't even exist, to me tourney style means I'm bringing my "A game" and trying to do my best at beating my opponent playing football.
Freestyle term seems weird, I think it should have more to do with just running a certain type of offense and defense without exploiting the game. Yet its all that and some.
The biggest copy cat tourney scheme that killed my nerve was the use and abuse of jermichael finley being put at wr the whole game and rocket catching every pass thrown to him. But in order to achieve success in stopping or slowing it down was to either nano or shake blitz to get pressure if you didn't have a man on Jim to press him at the line long enough to force a throwes elsewhere. It was either for a while intolerable someone found a sort of stable def playmaker to counter this, but it still would be a crap shoot.
If you feel you good without these cheap tactics like most of the freestyle community seems to feel they are, then why even bother playing this way and ruining someone else enjoyment when the name of the game is Madden NFL Football, not blitz or NFL Jam.
# 155
Illustrator76 @ 05/04/12 05:39 PM
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# 156
Illustrator76 @ 05/04/12 05:42 PM
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Ugh. I'm out.
# 157
therealsmallville @ 05/04/12 05:43 PM
Probably not my business to jump in...but I'm going to do it anyway :-) (please bear with me here)
Go back a few months to the Super Bowl. Last play of the game. Brady heaves it downfield, in a last ditch effort. Now, did Belichick & Brady call up that play hoping to score a touchdown? Absolutely, you hope every play turns into a TD. But another reason QB's will chuck a ball into a crowd of players is they are hoping for DPI. To get one more play, much closer to the endzone. I guarantee you the Pats were praying for DPI almost as much as they were a miraculous TD. This is part of NFL strategy. Playing against the CPU, this strategy doesn't exist for me.
The way I have my sliders adjusted, I do lose games to the cpu. Often, when trailing with 10 seconds left, I'll heave one deep hoping for that DPI. It's never called, even when instant reply shows there was clearly illegal contact made by the DB.
I have a buddy who laughs at me sometimes for wanting penalties. He also likes 56-7 scores and stat fests while playing as the Dolphins. My opinion, and only my opinion, is that if he wants to score 50+ every game with no penalties en route to a 16-0 season, he should go play Blitz.
Give me penalties. Give me a 12-4, 10-6 season. LET ME LOSE A GAME because an AI controlled DB on my team did something stupid, putting the cpu on my 1 with a go-ahead TD. This is SIM. This is "Everything You See On Sunday".
This should be Madden.
Go back a few months to the Super Bowl. Last play of the game. Brady heaves it downfield, in a last ditch effort. Now, did Belichick & Brady call up that play hoping to score a touchdown? Absolutely, you hope every play turns into a TD. But another reason QB's will chuck a ball into a crowd of players is they are hoping for DPI. To get one more play, much closer to the endzone. I guarantee you the Pats were praying for DPI almost as much as they were a miraculous TD. This is part of NFL strategy. Playing against the CPU, this strategy doesn't exist for me.
The way I have my sliders adjusted, I do lose games to the cpu. Often, when trailing with 10 seconds left, I'll heave one deep hoping for that DPI. It's never called, even when instant reply shows there was clearly illegal contact made by the DB.
I have a buddy who laughs at me sometimes for wanting penalties. He also likes 56-7 scores and stat fests while playing as the Dolphins. My opinion, and only my opinion, is that if he wants to score 50+ every game with no penalties en route to a 16-0 season, he should go play Blitz.
Give me penalties. Give me a 12-4, 10-6 season. LET ME LOSE A GAME because an AI controlled DB on my team did something stupid, putting the cpu on my 1 with a go-ahead TD. This is SIM. This is "Everything You See On Sunday".
This should be Madden.
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for me to win and to fit my defensive scheme - shields at FS is who I user control - with his catching rating and his blazing speed he allows me to cover more ground. putting him in position there gives me the best chance to win.
kinda like using Aaron Hernandez at HB even though he is a TE.
why is one way or the other the way the game is supposed to play?
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If it wasn't for the blatant abuse of curl routes being used to achieve a first down and you are showing a pattern of relying on this most of the game, then it becomes and issue. Curl routes are not easily defendable, as there are several Sim leagues and communities who have started to ban this route.
Remember the 4 curls people were running in madden 09 out of snugs? It still happens to this day.
But its hard taking someone's word when they don't even bother indulging in the pub room games to begin with. I mean at this point Cm and whoever else doesn't play online, what what would it hurt to get online for a few hours in the play now and see for yourself?
If you still feel the same afterwards then heh, not much for me to say, but I feel a lot of people on this "its all moot" mentality don't even bother seeing for themselves. You act like we pulling stuff up out of thin air and that's not the case.
But tell me how would you feel if I just told you to just stop playing madden altogether if you're gonna come back at me with "then don't play online join a Sim group".
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i also play madden for what its worth a game. I simply just dont adhere to the same guidelines as you or others.
im not a bad person for that. im not inferior to anyone because of that. I choose to play a certain way that best fits my enjoyment of the game.
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