*****OFFICIAL COMMUNITY DRAFT/ROSTER UPDATE*****

[Rickster101]

Quote: Originally Posted by dan77733

You're welcome. I know first hand that creating a roster is hard work that takes a lot of time and effort to get done. When I started my first ever roster last December, I thought that I was never going to finish. With that said, I do appreciate and respect what you guys are doing. It's all about making 2k5's lifespan as long as humanly possible which im all for. As for Moss, I think you misunderstood me. I was talking about the Giants rookie WR Sinorice Moss. He's rated 78 but both Chad Jackson and Santonio Holmes are rated lower yet were drafted before him. That's all im saying bud.

Oh OK my bad, I thought it strange you making that statment about Moss since you do rosters yourself but in a different way sometimes guys will do rosters at update points during a season, awhile back I use to be into Madden that way with some guys who hated waiting on those slow you know what DLs so we did our own but you know what its all about anyway and yours aren't too bad really I liked what you did with the Franchise and getting the date set-up in the editor.

Tell me I've read how to change the dates but I thought you were going to have Finn look into making that change permanent any word on that as far as the schedule goes, you explain it well enough is it in there yet or do we have to edit it in the schedule to get those dates set-up as you've explained?






Holla Back ya'll
Rickster101

[dan77733]

Quote: Originally Posted by Flipmo23

Well, first of all, you are right. Some of the ratings are off. But they are based on a formula and the point here is not for the overall rating to reflect what anyone "thinks" it should be, rather than for the player to have the tools that he has in real life in the game. So if Lendale White has the tools to make him a 93 in the game, then so be it. It's not the overall that matters, but like I said previously, the roster is barely 50% done and right now the foundation is set for us to tinker with the OVERALL ratings when the roster is done. None of the non-rookies have even been touched, and the rookies will be tweaked as well.

I understand what you're trying to do but trust me, in the end, its a mistake to try to get the players to play in-game like their real life counterparts. You have to know that the game itself has its own formula and setup in regards to how players actually play in-game. Unless you can get legitimate info straight from VC themselves, I can guarantee that its not going to happen. I look at it this way - 2k5 is a football video game and I treat it just like that when I create players and adjust ratings because in the end, that's what 2k5 is - a football video game. Also, be advised that the majority of attributes dont affect the player whatsoever. QB's for example have no need for defensive attributes such as pass rush, tackle, etc. That's also taken into account in 2k5's formula and setup. So, while the attributes determine the overall rating (as does height and weight), its only the "impact" attributes that affect anything.

Quote: Originally Posted by Flipmo23

The best example of why the overall means nothing is RB Deangelo Williams. Go according to the formula and he's around 55 overall, just because his break tackle comes out very low. You look at all the other ratings and he's a pretty stellar back. 90+ speed, 75+ agility, can catch the ball, etc. But the game puts so much emphasis on Break Tackle that his rating takes a serious dip. With players like that, we will tinker with other ratings to make their overall rating acceptable so some of you whiners won't, well, whine.

Overall rating does mean something because the game takes that into account when team ratings are calculated (offense, defense and overall), salaries are determined and in-game as well. I guarantee that just because Williams attributes are good, the game wont see it that way. Try playing a game on Legend as is with Williams as your starting RB and I guarantee that you'll be extremely lucky to rush for over 100 yards in the game. Play against a solid defense and despite having good attributes, Williams will look like a backup RB at best as opposed to being a starter which he will be. And im not complaining or crying about ratings being low or high. I can always edit them myself if I want to but my point is that in the end, the game takes the overall rating into account much more then what the attributes are.

Quote: Originally Posted by Flipmo23

As for Bunkley, he's in the what, mid to high 60s? He'll be a 70 in-game by the middle of the first season in a franchise, and probably an 80 near the beginning of next season. I don't know how much you play franchise, but it's possible to get some players (especially running backs) up 10-15 points overall over the course of one preseason alone. These ratings are modest because these players have yet to prove themselves, you will have to develop them in your franchise to see where they will end up overall, which is what makes the game fun IMO. I put Bunkley at 80, and he's already a star. This being a guy that is not even going to start at the beginning of this season (if you can't tell by my avatar, I'm an Eagles fan, so don't think I'm shafting him, I'm going by his projected stats and I have no trouble with a DT with 65 RC, 75 TKL, 70 Pass Rush, and 65 Cov as a ROOKIE, regardless of what the overall is.

For me, its all about franchise but players dont progress in-game until you enter the following regular season. So, if a player starts the 2004 season at 80, he'll stay that way until you enter the 2005 regular season. Player progression is horrible at times and shouldnt be taken into account whatsoever when creating players because you could have a 90 rated rookie decrease to the 70's in his second season while a 65 rated rookie could increase to the mid 80's in his second season. You may use Weekly Prep but that's just for the week and every player's original rating and attributes all go back to what they were when you started once you enter the off-season.

Bunkley will be the starter opposite Patterson come opening day. I guarantee it. Reid didnt draft a DT at 14 just so he could start Walker who the team wasnt happy with after last season's performance. Personally, I dont even think that Walker will even be an Eagle come opening day. Of course, that remains to be seen but with Bunkley, Patterson, Rayburn, Jasper and Marshall at DT already, Walker is the odd man out. Bunkley's attributes look good but coverage doesnt mean anything for the DL. Strength is more important. Also, dont forget that height and weight affects overall ratings as well.

I can understand that rookies havent proved anything but for example, I have Alex Smith at 82 in my roster. I know he played bad and I will lower him accordingly because of his season performance in my 2k7 roster but he was the number one overall draft pick in 2005 (whether or not he should have been is another discussion for another time) and shouldnt be rated lower then others who were drafted after him. That's just not fair. Also, look on the bright side, I have my own rating setup for rookies and while 82 is the highest that I will rate any of them, at least im not overrating them like EA does in Madden.

Quote: Originally Posted by Flipmo23

Nothing against SF, but it's a known fact that they made a mistake with Smith. I don't care about the contract he got, but he may very well end up playing behind Dilfer for now. As a matter of fact, as of right now, he's the second string QB, check any Depth chart out there. He's a bust.

Whether or not SF made a mistake with Smith wont be known for at least another two years. Remember, there's a reason why rookies cant be graded for at least three years. Smith isnt a bust after a half a season. He'll have a better offense then what he had last season and if Turner can get Barlow back on track to a 1000 yard season, I think that Smith will the chance to play well. I dont care that websites have Smith listed as the backup. It's not going to happen. Smith is the clear cut starter, period. After all, there's a reason why Nolan traded Rattay - he didnt want to play backup and tutor Smith. That's where Dilfer comes in. He's a veteran QB who will help Smith develop but there's no way in hell that Dilfer is the starter come September 10th. Well, unless Smith gets injured which hopefully wont happen.

Quote: Originally Posted by Flipmo23

All three of these players are rated nearly the same in all categories. The varying overall ratings are due to their different consistency ratings, which mean just as much as Catch/Run Route when it comes to the overall rating.

Consistency doesnt mean as much as the main attributes. Increase consistency by 10 for Sinorice Moss and see what his overall rating jumps to. Then re-load the roster and increase his catch attribute by 10. I guarantee that there will be at least a 3 point difference if not more. Consistency is also based on position as well.

Quote: Originally Posted by Flipmo23

Almost as nuts as seeing every rookie with higher ratings than the veterans before they've even played a game. We're going to stick with the modest ratings, and leave room for developing players throughout the season, as that is one of the more fun parts of the game.

There's a difference though. The rookies have their entire careers ahead of them while the veterans are pretty much close to becoming retired. And I still dont understand your thinking that players progress during the season - they dont. There's only one time when players increase or decrease and that's when you enter the following regular season. Players do not increase or decrease at any other time.

Quote: Originally Posted by Flipmo23

I'll take note of Hicks and make sure he is in later. Barlow is a vet, so again, we haven't messed with those ratings just yet. And again, stop looking at the overall rating as the end all for decided who is a better player. A player can be 90 overall with a secure ball of 50... would you take him over an 80 rated RB with secure ball 90?

Thanks about Hicks. As for who I would take - I would take the 90 overall over the 80 overall because the overall rating is what the computer goes by, not the attribute. The secure ball doesnt mean much either since the CPU can decide when you're going to fumble the ball or drop a pass. Try this when you get a chance - Play an Eagles franchise on Legend as is with injuries off and use Westbrook for an entire season. Then, use Mahe or even a 70 something rated Moats for an entire season. Make sure the quarter length is the same and then tell me who does better. I guarantee that Westbrook blows him away. And dont use any cheats or anything. Just play normal.

Anyway, im looking forward to the community roster and just want to say that while it may not seem like it, I do respect and appreciate all the hard work and everything that you and everyone else involved are putting in while creating this community roster. After all, we're all trying to accomplish the same thing - extend the lifespan of ESPN NFL 2k5.

[dan77733]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rickster101

Oh OK my bad, I thought it strange you making that statment about Moss since you do rosters yourself but in a different way sometimes guys will do rosters at update points during a season, awhile back I use to be into Madden that way with some guys who hated waiting on those slow you know what DLs so we did our own but you know what its all about anyway and yours aren't too bad really I liked what you did with the Franchise and getting the date set-up in the editor. Tell me I've read how to change the dates but I thought you were going to have Finn look into making that change permanent any word on that as far as the schedule goes, you explain it well enough is it in there yet or do we have to edit it in the schedule to get those dates set-up as you've explained?

I know what you mean about the roster updates. I could never DL a 2k5 roster update as that damn 3 minute time limit always expired before the download was complete. I also know what you mean by editing players throughout the season and whatnot based on their performance. I'm just too lazy to edit attributes and whatnot after the season ends especially when some players might change positions or become starters or backups. I also wait until the following season because I'll have my football book in front of me which makes it so much easier to check how players did stat wise then it is to look on the internet.

Can you be a little more clearer on the schedule thing though? I havent talked to Finn in weeks but I did ask him to edit the "time" option. It's setup from 12pm to 9pm. I asked Finn if he could extend it from 12pm to 10pm.

I know that you have to edit two games on the schedule because of the game's setup to have bye weeks for teams from week 3 to week 10. If you're talking about the two games in week 10 that have question marks on them, check out my schedule topic as I posted how to fix that.

[Flipmo23]

Quote: Originally Posted by dan77733

There's a difference though. The rookies have their entire careers ahead of them while the veterans are pretty much close to becoming retired. And I still dont understand your thinking that players progress during the season - they dont. There's only one time when players increase or decrease and that's when you enter the following regular season. Players do not increase or decrease at any other time.

Wrong. They increase "temporarily" each week with preps, but there are 3 points in the season where a player permanantly increases or decreases based on three factors: preps, performance, and team record. Not sure if you knew that. The three points are as follows:

-At the end of the preseason
-Sometime between weeks 5-8 (it's different for every player)
-End of the season, after the Pro Bowl

The above is a fact, it's been known for a long time. I can take Brian Westbrook and bring him from the mid-80s to 100 in ONE PRESEASON. I've done it in three different franchises. Believe me, when it comes to this game, I know my ****.

As far as you thinking that weekly prep is "temporary", that is also false. The ratings go up for that week, but how much a player goes up is taken to account when the phases above come. If you've been working Boss Bailey's calves and ankles all preseason, when week 1 comes around, he will gain a huge, permanant jump in speed.

All I can say is give it a try. Completely overwork Brian Westbrook's calves and ankles and do 6 tire relays a week for an entire preseason, and win all 4 games. Score at least 2 TD's with him each game. He will jump 8-15 points in that preseason alone.

Quote:

I guarantee that just because Williams attributes are good, the game wont see it that way.

*sigh* Ok, I will explain this to you with an example that I hope proves my point.

Take a RB that is rated 100. Any RB. Now put his Break Tackle at 0. His rating dips severely. You telling me I can't get 100 yards in a game on legend just because I can't press the Y button?

As far as players having better ratings just because "they were drafted first", that is a load of BS. Higher picks are not necessarily better players. Who's to say Leinart @ 10 won't be better than Vince Young @ 3? Or even Cutler? That theory to me is a joke, no offense.

Again, these players will play like they do in real life. I don't care how much I have to test and retest it. I'm not going to give a QB a stronger arm than he should have, or a RB quicker feet, or a WR better hands just because he was drafted earlier, or his overall rating isn't appealing to other people.

As far as contracts, these are all rookies, so they will be signed to 3+ year deals, and their big pay day will come deep into franchises where they either developed into stars, or didn't, so that is not a concern.

[dan77733]

Quote: Originally Posted by Flipmo23

Wrong. They increase "temporarily" each week with preps, but there are 3 points in the season where a player permanantly increases or decreases based on three factors: preps, performance, and team record. Not sure if you knew that. The three points are as follows: -At the end of the preseason -Sometime between weeks 5-8 (it's different for every player) -End of the season, after the Pro Bowl The above is a fact, it's been known for a long time. I can take Brian Westbrook and bring him from the mid-80s to 100 in ONE PRESEASON. I've done it in three different franchises. Believe me, when it comes to this game, I know my ****.

I dont like or use Weekly Prep so if players increase or decrease during the season from using WP, I wouldnt know. I apologize for that. In general, no player increases or decreases until the following regular season. I have played several franchises and have NEVER EVER seen one player increase or decrease at any point during the season.

[dan77733]

Quote: Originally Posted by Flipmo23

*sigh* Ok, I will explain this to you with an example that I hope proves my point. Take a RB that is rated 100. Any RB. Now put his Break Tackle at 0. His rating dips severely. You telling me I can't get 100 yards in a game on legend just because I can't press the Y button?

What im saying is that if you have a 100 rated RB and a 70 rated RB, you wont do as good with the 70 rated RB as you will with the 100 rated RB no matter what their break tackle attribute is. Break tackle affects the CPU more then it does the human player. Play a 5 minute per quarter game on Legend as is and I guarantee that you'll do better with Westbrook then you'll do with Moats. Play two seperate games against the same CPU team. Unless you use cheap or trick running plays, getting 100 yards with Westbrook will be easier to do then with a 70 rated Moats. I guarantee it.

[dan77733]

Quote: Originally Posted by Flipmo23

As far as players having better ratings just because "they were drafted first", that is a load of BS. Higher picks are not necessarily better players. Who's to say Leinart @ 10 won't be better than Vince Young @ 3? Or even Cutler? That theory to me is a joke, no offense. Again, these players will play like they do in real life. I don't care how much I have to test and retest it. I'm not going to give a QB a stronger arm than he should have, or a RB quicker feet, or a WR better hands just because he was drafted earlier, or his overall rating isn't appealing to other people. As far as contracts, these are all rookies, so they will be signed to 3+ year deals, and their big pay day will come deep into franchises where they either developed into stars, or didn't, so that is not a concern.

I didnt say that higher drafted players will be better then lower drafted players. I said that the higher you're drafted, the better rating you should have. With the exception of McCargo, all the first rounders that were drafted were drafted for a reason - they were worth a first round draft pick. There's a reason why players dont get drafted until the later rounds - its because they're not worth high draft picks. Of course, who turns out to be good or crap remains to be seen.

I have my own rating setup when it comes to rookies that's based on the round -

1 - 82 / 80 / 77
2 - 77 / 75
3 - 72 / 70
4 - 68 / 65
5 - 62 / 60
6 - 58 / 55
7 - 52 / 50

Sometimes, I have to edit ratings depending on whether or not the player is a starter. I hate having backups rated higher then starters. That bugs me to no end. I also edit players based on season performance. So for example, while I have QB Alex Smith rated 82 in my 2k6 roster, he will be decreased accordingly in my 2k7 roster.

I think that Leinart will be the best of the three while Young will be the worst of the three. I currently have Leinart and Young rated 82 each with Cutler at 80. I go based on what round the player was drafted in. If at the end of 2006, Cutler somehow blows both away, then I'll update my 2k7 roster accordingly but until then, I'll stay with my setup because I think it's fair for all the rookies while at the same time doesnt overrate or underrate them.

Man, you're going have to do a lot of testing to get the players to play like their real life counterparts. Remember, its a game and the game will do what it's programmed to do no matter what you, me or anyone else tries to do.

And no offense taken to your joke comment. To each his own bud.

[dan77733]

I almost forgot.....

I dont use Weekly Prep whatsoever and have no interest in doing so. WP and the Crib are non-existent to me. If players increase or decrease in ratings, its because of WP. If you play a season with WP off, then you'll see that players only increase when you enter the regular season.