Madden NFL 11 News Post

FBGRatings Seeks to Recalibrate Madden Ratings, Change Game

02:46 PM - January 24, 2011 by RaychelSnr

I recentely sat down for a talk with FBGRatings.com's Dan Berens to discuss his site's vision and what's going on over there today. The site is currently working on getting accurate ratings for every player using real hard data converted into the Madden ratings universe. Dan claims that when these numbers are plugged into the game, it plays much better and much closer to real life. Check out the interview below and also check out Dan's website to see what he's got going on!

Interview with Berens on the OS Radio Show on BlogTalkRadio

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Member Comments

# 161 TLF @ 05/16/11 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCEBB2001


	Yeah and Rex Grossman made the Super Bowl in 2006 so I guess he needs a 99 accuracy

LOL they neeed to make a drop the snap rating ONLY for RExyy

# 162 TLF @ 05/16/11 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMJOHNS18


	Running in a straight line in shorts is way different than in a game with pads. I'm interested in trying these adjusted ratings out, but it just seems that with all the emphases on drill results will not translate over too well in the game. For example, look at Legarrette Blount and Peyton Hillis. There's a lot more RB's with better verticals then them but you don't see them hurdling defenders. Theres more to a football player then just doing well in drills. Just because a guy is slower in the 3 cone doesn't mean he can't be the best change of direction player. Looking at 40 times, just because two guys run the same time doesn't mean they are the same speed. If my 10 yard split is twice as fast as yours, but we finish at 4.6, then you are faster then me. And even if they run truly identical times, wouldn't a heavier guy have better ACC if he is able to run the same splits as a guy who weighs 25+ less? Think if it as 2 cars drag racing each other. If they leave the line at the same and one of them has a 10 car lead at the 660' mark then that car accelerates faster then the other. But, if they finish dead even, then the other car has a higher top speed. You see this with some running backs. They have great burst, but don't have the top speed to outrun defenders. So, looking at 4.4 hb vrs a 4.6 lb, who says that the LB can't run down the HB in the open field? If the HB is 5-8 190, and the LB is 6-4 240, the different between them could be that the HB ACC way faster then the LB, but top end speed could be identical or even favor the LB. I guess all I'm trying to say is that there is a lot more to consider when rating players other then saying if a guy runs X.XX then he gets a XX rating. Madden doesn't account for the weight at all, so whatever speed rating a player has is their top speed (300lb DT and 170lb HB run head to head with 99 speed). So when rating a player only based off the 40, then all splits must be used. With equal 40's, guys with quicker 10 yard splits have better ACC but lower SPD, since they reach their top end quicker. Guys with lower 10 yard splits have lower ACC but higher SPD. If a guy with a lower 40 covers the last 20 yards faster then a guy with a quicker 40, his SPD should be higher but ACC lower since it takes him longer to get up to speed. And if you break this down as much as you want, yard for yard, you'll still see on Sunday plays that throw all these drills out the window. The only way to know if a guy can play is to throw him on the field and see what happens.

yea i agree on the Hurdle , they need to add the Jumping rating into that variable or something because Blount has some Hops in the open field

he has done it multiple times in college and the pro's

yea i agree , i also hope that some of the Better players can mess up if myou will on Any Givene Sunday

id love to Own Revis with Jeff Maehl outta FA and just watch a rook own him

# 163 TLF @ 05/16/11 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thinking Out Loud


	@TMJOHNS18, you say that stuff as if FBG ratings only uses 40 times to calculate ratings but they don't. DECEBB has stated over and over he uses many different kinds of scouting data to access players skill set. So two people with the same 40 time, would have their speed the same but other ratings, such as acceleration, agility and stamina would be based on other data like sprints, shuttle cones and 100m runs. Therefore, properly differentiating their overall skill set from each other.

give John Clay 73 speed and 90 accel LOL

# 164 TMJOHNS18 @ 05/16/11 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thinking Out Loud


	So two people with the same 40 time, would have their speed the same but other ratings, such as acceleration, agility and stamina would be based on other data like sprints, shuttle cones and 100m runs.er.

If speed is how fast the player runs all out, then two players running the same 40 won't always have the same speed. Like I said in my post, if a guy is hitting his top speed 10 yards into the run, where another is hitting his 20 yards, and they run identical 40's, then second will be running faster at the end of the 40, while the first guy would have a quicker launch/first step.

If you do it how you're explaining it, then the guy with higher ACC will outrun the other because he gets up to speed quicker and they both have the same top end speed. So if you did a mock 40 in the game, they would not run the same time. Also, look at scouting in the game, there are players that run 4.2's that have lower speed ratings then 4.4s, but their ACC will be higher because the 40 is more about determining ACC (how fast you can get up to speed) over how fast your top end is.

But, like I said in my first post, I'm eager to try it out. Mostly over the other ratings, especially seeing how adjusting play recognition made a big impact in NCAA and helped the CPU play more realistic, so any changes to how ratings are assigned has got me interested. It's just that I worry guys with 4.2 speed and the combine all stars will be tearing up the field even though there's plenty of powerful/fast guys who's combine/pro day drill results wouldn't suggest that.

# 165 DCEBB2001 @ 05/16/11 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMJOHNS18


	Running in a straight line in shorts is way different than in a game with pads. I'm interested in trying these adjusted ratings out, but it just seems that with all the emphases on drill results will not translate over too well in the game. For example, look at Legarrette Blount and Peyton Hillis. There's a lot more RB's with better verticals then them but you don't see them hurdling defenders. Theres more to a football player then just doing well in drills. Just because a guy is slower in the 3 cone doesn't mean he can't be the best change of direction player. Looking at 40 times, just because two guys run the same time doesn't mean they are the same speed. If my 10 yard split is twice as fast as yours, but we finish at 4.6, then you are faster then me. And even if they run truly identical times, wouldn't a heavier guy have better ACC if he is able to run the same splits as a guy who weighs 25+ less? Think if it as 2 cars drag racing each other. If they leave the line at the same and one of them has a 10 car lead at the 660' mark then that car accelerates faster then the other. But, if they finish dead even, then the other car has a higher top speed. You see this with some running backs. They have great burst, but don't have the top speed to outrun defenders. So, looking at 4.4 hb vrs a 4.6 lb, who says that the LB can't run down the HB in the open field? If the HB is 5-8 190, and the LB is 6-4 240, the different between them could be that the HB ACC way faster then the LB, but top end speed could be identical or even favor the LB. I guess all I'm trying to say is that there is a lot more to consider when rating players other then saying if a guy runs X.XX then he gets a XX rating. Madden doesn't account for the weight at all, so whatever speed rating a player has is their top speed (300lb DT and 170lb HB run head to head with 99 speed). So when rating a player only based off the 40, then all splits must be used. With equal 40's, guys with quicker 10 yard splits have better ACC but lower SPD, since they reach their top end quicker. Guys with lower 10 yard splits have lower ACC but higher SPD. If a guy with a lower 40 covers the last 20 yards faster then a guy with a quicker 40, his SPD should be higher but ACC lower since it takes him longer to get up to speed. And if you break this down as much as you want, yard for yard, you'll still see on Sunday plays that throw all these drills out the window. The only way to know if a guy can play is to throw him on the field and see what happens.

This issue has already been discussed and accounted for in this forum. That is why utilizing the splits DOES affect the overall performance. HOWEVER, speed does NOT work separately from the ACC rating in Madden. They work symbiotically, meaning they both affect one another in the game. I tested this for hours in Madden 08, 10, and 11. The bottom line is that there is no "10yd SPD" or "20yd SPD" rating. The speed rating is constant and the only constant we have is the given overall distance and time taken from the 40 times. Therefore, if player A runs a 1.50 and 4.40 and player B runs a 1.60 and a 4.40 they will still have that constant overall speed rating applied. The 10yd splits only affect ACC, of which players in-game reach by the first 10yds (and yes, you can measure it by counting frames). So in actuality, it is how both ratings work TOGETHER that determines how fast players move in Madden.

# 166 DCEBB2001 @ 05/16/11 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thinking Out Loud


	@TMJOHNS18, you say that stuff as if FBG ratings only uses 40 times to calculate ratings but they don't. DECEBB has stated over and over he uses many different kinds of scouting data to access players skill set. So two people with the same 40 time, would have their speed the same but other ratings, such as acceleration, agility and stamina would be based on other data like sprints, shuttle cones and 100m runs. Therefore, properly differentiating their overall skill set from each other.

THANK YOU!!!

# 167 DCEBB2001 @ 05/16/11 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLF


	give John Clay 73 speed and 90 accel LOL

He is actually at 74 SPD and 80 ACC with a 79 AGI and 68 JMP.

# 168 DCEBB2001 @ 05/16/11 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMJOHNS18


	If speed is how fast the player runs all out, then two players running the same 40 won't always have the same speed. Like I said in my post, if a guy is hitting his top speed 10 yards into the run, where another is hitting his 20 yards, and they run identical 40's, then second will be running faster at the end of the 40, while the first guy would have a quicker launch/first step. If you do it how you're explaining it, then the guy with higher ACC will outrun the other because he gets up to speed quicker and they both have the same top end speed. So if you did a mock 40 in the game, they would not run the same time. Also, look at scouting in the game, there are players that run 4.2's that have lower speed ratings then 4.4s, but their ACC will be higher because the 40 is more about determining ACC (how fast you can get up to speed) over how fast your top end is. But, like I said in my first post, I'm eager to try it out. Mostly over the other ratings, especially seeing how adjusting play recognition made a big impact in NCAA and helped the CPU play more realistic, so any changes to how ratings are assigned has got me interested. It's just that I worry guys with 4.2 speed and the combine all stars will be tearing up the field even though there's plenty of powerful/fast guys who's combine/pro day drill results wouldn't suggest that.

The big problem is that the Madden gaming engine makes all players reach top speed at around 10yds no matter what. To counter this, some players like D.Jackson may have a 92 SPD but only an 87 ACC where as a guy like Kevin Kasper has an 89 SPD but a 98 ACC. I already know how both variables behave within the engine so it is easy to account for how both work with the given data to make those speeds seem as realistic as possible.

Scouting data is also heavily used in determining the ratings for players so don't worry about it just being about 40 times. Jerry Rice in this system would have a speed of 82, but his RTE, AWR, CTH, and ACC would all be close to 99. What this system does overall is force the user to look at other ratings besides SPD. A good example: Adrian Peterson.

STR: 64
AGI: 79
SPD: 90
ACC: 87
AWR: 86
JMP: 84

Not great right? Pretty average on the STR and AGI ratings. However, look at the rest of his ratings for his position!

CTH 81
CAR 83
PBK 54
RBK 49
RET 56
TRK 87
ELU 94
BCV 99
SFA 88
SPM 93
JKM 94
RTE 74

That BCV is what makes him sooo good as a runner. His vision is among tops not only in the league, but in history! He always knows where to run! Note the discrepancy between the AGI rating and ELU/SPM/JKM ratings. This shows you that OVERALL AGILITY can and is different from FOOTBALL agility and one can possess more than the other. AP has tight hips, but when performing a football move, he is able to break down and change directions well. AGI and SPM/JKM is another example of symbiotic ratings: one affects the others as to present a realistic representation of on-field performance.

# 169 guaps @ 05/17/11 04:03 AM

Looks like ratings will still be inflated for Madden 12. Individual players still have the 99 overall rating and teams have way too many elite player. From the video/screenshot revealed so far we know that the Ravens has got 7 player rated 94+, Falcons has got 6 players at 93+ and Packers has 8 players rated 92+. Cannot imagine how teams might look 5+ years into franchise mode - yikes!

I hope you'll be able to provide more realistic ratings come August

# 170 Playmakers @ 05/17/11 06:05 AM

I thought this article i was reading while researching some onformation on ex-Steeler LB Levon Kirkland would help open some eye's to those who seem to worry way too much about a players speed rating.....you'll see that Kirkland refrences quickness to be more important than speed. I've read similiar comments from Emmitt Smith who wasn't a very fast RB based on speed

--------------------------------------------------------
http://www.seattlepi.com/sports/foot...rs-1051655.php

It started at Clemson, where he weighed 205 pounds his freshman year. It continued when he arrived in Pittsburgh as a 240-pound outside linebacker. To play inside in the Steelers' 3-4 defense, he had to get bigger. Kirkland gradually increased his weight, without losing much speed or any quickness. His best time in the 40-yard dash in college was 4.6 seconds. Despite the added weight, he ran between 4.7 and 4.8 seconds a few years ago.

"I always ran a slow 40," said Kirkland, slow being a relative term for a man his size. "I never was a 40 guy. It's quickness more than speed. That's what is essential to football. I think you have to have a lot of quickness, and I think my quickness has been the best part of my game."

# 171 DCEBB2001 @ 05/17/11 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guaps


	Looks like ratings will still be inflated for Madden 12. Individual players still have the 99 overall rating and teams have way too many elite player. From the video/screenshot revealed so far we know that the Ravens has got 7 player rated 94+, Falcons has got 6 players at 93+ and Packers has 8 players rated 92+. Cannot imagine how teams might look 5+ years into franchise mode - yikes! I hope you'll be able to provide more realistic ratings come August

That is disappointing. Over inflation of ratings ruins the Madden experience to me. Good teams that win are not always loaded with 92+ players, but instead are deep at several positions. Look at your Super Bowl Champs...16 players on IR and a Super Bowl Title despite it...

# 172 DCEBB2001 @ 05/17/11 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Playmakers


	I thought this article i was reading while researching some onformation on ex-Steeler LB Levon Kirkland would help open some eye's to those who seem to worry way too much about a players speed rating.....you'll see that Kirkland refrences quickness to be more important than speed. I've read similiar comments from Emmitt Smith who wasn't a very fast RB based on speed -------------------------------------------------------- http://www.seattlepi.com/sports/foot...rs-1051655.php It started at Clemson, where he weighed 205 pounds his freshman year. It continued when he arrived in Pittsburgh as a 240-pound outside linebacker. To play inside in the Steelers' 3-4 defense, he had to get bigger. Kirkland gradually increased his weight, without losing much speed or any quickness. His best time in the 40-yard dash in college was 4.6 seconds. Despite the added weight, he ran between 4.7 and 4.8 seconds a few years ago. "I always ran a slow 40," said Kirkland, slow being a relative term for a man his size. "I never was a 40 guy. It's quickness more than speed. That's what is essential to football. I think you have to have a lot of quickness, and I think my quickness has been the best part of my game."

This once again shows you how important it is to look at those other ratings outside of speed. Good post!

# 173 guaps @ 05/17/11 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCEBB2001


	That is disappointing. Over inflation of ratings ruins the Madden experience to me. Good teams that win are not always loaded with 92+ players, but instead are deep at several positions. Look at your Super Bowl Champs...16 players on IR and a Super Bowl Title despite it...

Exactly.

I just took a look at FIFA 11's ratings and roster - my personal favorite when it comes to realistic ratings. The best teams have starters rated between 78-86 and plenty of depth, where decent teams might have good starter (76-84), but no depth behind them.

And I agree that inflated ratings ruins the experience. In FIFA 11 even the Classic XI team of legendary players (equivalent to Hall of Famers in football) have overall ratings from 86 to 91. And amongst those legendary players there are only 8 of 1200+ individual ratings with a 98 rating. I'd much rather have Aaron Rodgers featuring, say, a 87 overall rating with Tom Brady and Peyton Manning at, say, 90, instead of all three of them having 99 overall ratings.

# 174 GGEden @ 05/17/11 11:06 AM

DCEBB2001...

Has it also been a focus to ensure all position-relative attributes have strong if not equal influence in how good a player is in his position? OVR player rating didn't matter much due to only a handful of attributes, including position-relative attributes, being too strongly weighted.

For instance, in M11 I was able to get Asomugha-like shutdown play from drafted rookies in 28-human online franchise mode (allpro and allmadden) (and being a perennial top 2 team) with 12 awareness, 50 man/zone etc, but with 90+ jumping, agility, acceleration, speed, 80+ pursuit (especially this), around 60+ catching and spectacular catch attributes. Testing in practice mode with created players, process of elimination raising and lowering various attributes, i found those attributes mattered most for CBs.

Same with other positions, certain position-relative attributes didn't matter that you'd think would matter. OL, for instance, I found that all that mattered (and it was really quite pronounced) was Pass and Run Blocking Strength. Not strength itself, footwork, pass/run blocking, awareness, etc. Good acceleration and agility for pulling guards and getting to the second level was also important.

Or is all this not part of your role? Is that up to EA's devs how they code the info you provide. If so, could you ask them about this or push them about it, please? Seeing as all your work in providing a more thorough ratings system that works well depends on how those attributes are weighted in algorithms.

Thanks.

# 175 Blazelore @ 05/17/11 11:22 AM

I agree. These ratings are out of control. Hall of famers should be the only ones with 90+ overall ratings. I want the feeling that having a player on my team with an 85 overall is a previlige.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk

# 176 TLF @ 05/17/11 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blazelore


	I agree. These ratings are out of control. Hall of famers should be the only ones with 90+ overall ratings. I want the feeling that having a player on my team with an 85 overall is a previlige. Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk

this is why they have to take the 'Potential" off the drafting , because people draft the A and B players which means they will be 90 and 80 overalls when they are in their Prime etc.

make it performance based not a RANDOM rating that NO ONE Truly knows

i doubt ANYONE would have guessed that Blount would have done as good as he did with the Bucs at RB , why should the Developers choose what a players Potential is i doubt half of them even know in detail who most of the Players are

make it fair no Potential just a "Random" chance your player either BOOMS oor they Bust , if a player doesnt WOW you on Gameday or do Bad but gets the job done week to week then they should be average maybe a 85 at best by the end of their Career

# 177 TLF @ 05/17/11 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cre8


	While you make a great point... I must point out that before Blount punched that Boise State player in the face and got suspended - he was projected to be a late-first or early-2nd round pick.

im not talking about him being in Trouble im talking about his Potential , now im not gonna say i remember what his Potential was at the beginning of Madden 11 because he was in the game early on but i doubt it is an A ,

same with players taken in Round 1 , like Spiller , Matthews etc.
just cuz they go Round 1 they have A potential thats BULL

how many BUSTS or players do we never hear from again after they go round 1 , some maybe play for one year and then get buried under Bench

SO Instead give Spiller his "GOOD" ratins like he already has his speed accel , and agility should all be in the high to mid 90's but make his Potential a C because he is already a "Finished Product" if you will

give players take in the 3rd to 4th who have something to Prove more of a Chance to catch up to them , just like certain players shine under Competition , why cant it be the same in real life

if you have Jake Locker at QB for the Titans but he sint working out and you traded for McElroy or Stanzi and they are your 32 anf you decide "ok Locker isnt doing anything , let me try out the backup and he OUT Shones Locker than Stanzi can start to take some of the spotlight away and if Locker keeps messing up he knows Stanzi will be there to make him look bad

"Pressure" kills many people in the NFL
why not make it a Feature

# 178 GGEden @ 05/17/11 12:22 PM

Perhaps EA could look into making Potential a dynamic thing. Like, after say 2 seasons, a rookie then gets given a potential, pending on how well/bad he performed.

# 179 TLF @ 05/17/11 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GGEden


	Perhaps EA could look into making Potential a dynamic thing. Like, after say 2 seasons, a rookie then gets given a potential, pending on how well/bad he performed.

i can deal with that , seems Fair and could work

but this Potential thing is dumb , 50 percent of the time people whether its a fan , coach or GM are wrong about what a player can or will do , some may have Drive and others dont is all im saying

DHB is a huge example , yea he is super fast etc. but in real life he suckkkkkks

in the game however he can out play some of the better CB's because his Speed , Accell and Agility are so high
(he drops passes of course) but still ive seen a few times where he becomes a 92 or Higher on the Raiders team and its Ridiculous

Kiper once said that Russell
(yes the BUST)
was gonna be one the Best QB's in the NFL in a few years , why he didnt lose his job as a Scout .....IDK
-____________-

# 180 DCEBB2001 @ 05/17/11 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GGEden


	DCEBB2001... Has it also been a focus to ensure all position-relative attributes have strong if not equal influence in how good a player is in his position? OVR player rating didn't matter much due to only a handful of attributes, including position-relative attributes, being too strongly weighted. For instance, in M11 I was able to get Asomugha-like shutdown play from drafted rookies in 28-human online franchise mode (allpro and allmadden) (and being a perennial top 2 team) with 12 awareness, 50 man/zone etc, but with 90+ jumping, agility, acceleration, speed, 80+ pursuit (especially this), around 60+ catching and spectacular catch attributes. Testing in practice mode with created players, process of elimination raising and lowering various attributes, i found those attributes mattered most for CBs. Same with other positions, certain position-relative attributes didn't matter that you'd think would matter. OL, for instance, I found that all that mattered (and it was really quite pronounced) was Pass and Run Blocking Strength. Not strength itself, footwork, pass/run blocking, awareness, etc. Good acceleration and agility for pulling guards and getting to the second level was also important. Or is all this not part of your role? Is that up to EA's devs how they code the info you provide. If so, could you ask them about this or push them about it, please? Seeing as all your work in providing a more thorough ratings system that works well depends on how those attributes are weighted in algorithms. Thanks.

You will find that these ratings are far more balanced. Take Tramon Williams for example. He is a top 10 CB now but only has his AGI, SPD and ACC in the low to mid 80s. He makes up for it with good position-specific ratings to contrast it. My specific role is to make sure that the ratings are distributed better within the game, so whether their algos are messed up or not is irrelevant due to my tailoring of my ratings system to their game engine.

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