MLB 11 The Show News Post

Four Keys to Success for MLB '11: The Show

07:14 PM - September 2, 2010 by RaychelSnr

Baseball's pennant push is in full swing, and several teams are feverishly trying to claw their way to a division title. For those of us whose teams have already been eliminated from postseason consideration (my beloved Tigers included), the only baseball we really have to look forward to right now is next season's entry of Sony's stellar MLB: The Show franchise. While this year's title was an excellent addition to the series, there are definitely some nagging issues holding the game back from the elusive "GOAT" status.

With plenty of time still left in this year's development cycle, I figured I would put together a couple critical aspects of the game that should be altered for the upcoming season.

Read More - Four Keys to Success for MLB '11: The Show

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# 101 swaldo @ 09/20/10 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by countryboy


	replays are compressed thus meaning they have missing frames, which result in morphing and other things happening that don't actually take place during the gameplay. .

I won't argue replays are compressed or not, but I will argue there is still morphing going on. When you watch a fastball in slow-mo coming straight at a bat and sailing right through I don't think compression really matters. This could be possible I suppose with a pitch with a large break so I'm not saying you're incorrect.

Also, doesn't the contact slider effect ball morhing as well? Lower it all the way down and you'll be swinging at alot of pitches you swore you hit.

And how about balls morphing straight through the chest of a fielder? I think it's pretty obvious it's not compression. The CPU simply spits out "error" and there's just no stopping the ball no matter what.

# 102 Heroesandvillains @ 09/20/10 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by countryboy


	replays are compressed thus meaning they have missing frames, which result in morphing and other things happening that don't actually take place during the gameplay. Also the outcome of an at bat is determined by several factors/attributes. IMO, its basically: user input + pitcher/batter attributes + pitcher confidence + luck = result. Lets face it....sometimes in real life you can hit the ball right on the sweet spot and get that beautiful sound, only to make an out. Sometimes you are fooled, flip the bat at the ball and end up with a hit. Its baseball.

Minus the luck part, I agree with this.

# 103 Heroesandvillains @ 09/20/10 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swaldo


	I won't argue replays are compressed or not, but I will argue there is still morphing going on. When you watch a fastball in slow-mo coming straight at a bat and sailing right through I don't think compression really matters. This could be possible I suppose with a pitch with a large break so I'm not saying you're incorrect. Also, doesn't the contact slider effect ball morhing as well? Lower it all the way down and you'll be swinging at alot of pitches you swore you hit. And how about balls morphing straight through the chest of a fielder? I think it's pretty obvious it's not compression. The CPU simply spits out "error" and there's just no stopping the ball no matter what.

If you're refering to some plays being scripted, are you implying comeback code?

Think like a dev here. What do you suggest the reason behind the "morphing" is? I'm a little confused with your last two posts.

We can all agree that some weird stuff happens when the game gets slowed down. But I can't help but infer you suggesting some reasoning behind it that you're simply not saying.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here. Just trying to follow you on this.

# 104 countryboy @ 09/20/10 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swaldo


	I won't argue replays are compressed or not, but I will argue there is still morphing going on. When you watch a fastball in slow-mo coming straight at a bat and sailing right through I don't think compression really matters. This could be possible I suppose with a pitch with a large break so I'm not saying you're incorrect.

Compression is missing frames. I matters on all replays. You can't depict whats happening in a replay, in terms of morphing or vaccum effect, or any other anamoly and state for certain its happening during actual gameplay. Compression = missing frames which means it happens with every replay, no matter the pitch nor situation.

Quote:


	Also, doesn't the contact slider effect ball morhing as well? Lower it all the way down and you'll be swinging at alot of pitches you swore you hit.

I have no idea, I don't mess with sliders.

Quote:


	And how about balls morphing straight through the chest of a fielder? I think it's pretty obvious it's not compression. The CPU simply spits out "error" and there's just no stopping the ball no matter what.

During gameplay? I have yet to see the ball game straight thru a player's chest. If you're speaking in terms of replays, it more than likely the fact that replays are compressed.

# 105 countryboy @ 09/20/10 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 42


	I play on Legend (Hitting) and don't use the PCI/Left Stick.

and you're able to hit pitches up and down in the zone? I can't tell you the number of times that I've swung and missed a fastball or any other pitch with perfect timing because I simply missed the pitch.

# 106 Heroesandvillains @ 09/20/10 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 42


	I play on Legend (Hitting) and don't use the PCI/Left Stick.

Brett, you must have unshakable dicipline. That takes some talent, without striking out 15 times a game.

# 107 Heroesandvillains @ 09/20/10 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MLB01


	He could actually be doing it if he has good discipline, yea. I changed my approach at the plate ( less chasing and more patience -- let the ball come to me kinda thing without using the left thumbstick ) and I draw more walks and hit better too. This is on Hall of Fame diff. I was chasing too much early in the count.

Just curious, but why not use the same approach of patience, but continue to use the left stick? Or did you always swing only?

I believe both styles to be fine, btw.

Yeah, absolutely swing only can probably be done on high levels if you can find a way to deal with a confident pitcher. I personally have a hard time with that moving the left stick at will.

# 108 swaldo @ 09/20/10 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by heroesandvillians


	If you're refering to some plays being scripted, are you implying comeback code? Think like a dev here. What do you suggest the reason behind the "morphing" is? I'm a little confused with your last two posts. We can all agree that some weird stuff happens when the game gets slowed down. But I can't help but infer you suggesting some reasoning behind it that you're simply not saying. I'm not trying to be argumentative here. Just trying to follow you on this.

Oh please not those words

. All I'm talking about is putting results into the hands of the user. As much as possible, the more the merrier.

The morphing and such is happening because ratings and other factors (see Countyboy's post) are dictating results rather than user input. That's fine if I'm playing coach mode only, but if I'm controlling the action I want to be in charge of the results.

Nobody can deny that the CPU dictates some outcomes no matter what input a user provides, and I responded because someone was called a liar for stating such. It's not a lie, it's a fact. Just do a youtube search for 'The Show PCI hitting tutorial.' While the guy is teaching he gets all confused at the results he's getting while batting - and he's supposed to be an expert.

The PCI system is not bad. But if it's too easy for a poor hitter to hit a good pitcher don't give me random results. Instead, find ways to increase the difficulty so I'm still in charge of the action.

# 109 HustlinOwl @ 09/20/10 08:08 PM

I was stating lies because you PYS players come in here and stating that The Show hitting system is all random which it is not.

# 110 Heroesandvillains @ 09/20/10 08:12 PM

Swaldo, I understand you now. Thanks.

Your last paragraph has me thinking. Interesting idea there. Instead of turning solid contact into an out due to circumstance (country boy's formula), you'd rather see the hitting system just get harder, thus forcing you into poor contact with said poor hitter.

A change like this for '11 I could deal with.

Regardless, I'm convinced next year's title will be slightly more pitcher friendly, as to reflect the current state of pitching dominate baseball.

Personally, though not ideal, I'm not afraid of some game altering, under the hood type stat based pre-destiny stat engine. If it were to be subtle, giving the user most of the control, as long as my stats looked good I would welcome this. Honestly, a system like this may exist now...as some are implying.

Again, just to reiterate, I'm more of a baseball guy then a video game guy. I don't mind if I'm not 100% in control of my games outcomes (which I'm not sure whether I am or not now). Just to point out too, I currently don't feel as if the controller has been taken out of my hands. The user DOES provide plenty of input to the game's outcome. How much is what's debateable.

My only issue currently is the power attribute's dominance in regards to overall batting average. It's no gamebreaker though. My franchise is going great!

# 111 countryboy @ 09/20/10 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swaldo


	Oh please not those words . All I'm talking about is putting results into the hands of the user. As much as possible, the more the merrier. The morphing and such is happening because ratings and other factors (see Countyboy's post) are dictating results rather than user input. That's fine if I'm playing coach mode only, but if I'm controlling the action I want to be in charge of the results.

Then why have ratings? Ratings have to account for something and my guess is that you're using that as the catapult for this "randomness" idea that you're chasing. If the sole purpose is to have the user's input dictate the outcomes of the action, then how are we to differentiate the difference between a good player and a poor player?

The answer, you can't. Ratings have to account for something. The user's input dictates how well those ratings are represented in any given situation.

The argument that the cpu/game randomly chooses outcomes can be argued to death in any video game. The fact of the matter is that the cpu/game has to determine the outcome to a certain degree, especially in sports games, where we as fans want to differentiate the difference between Albert Pujols and Brendan Ryan. The expression of ratings is what influence the game has over the outcome of any given situation. Its like that in the Show, NHL, NBA 2K, PYS, FIFA, Madden, UFC, Smackdown vs Raw, in any game where ratings are accounted how well an individual does in any given situation, the game has to have some influence over the outcome. Again, if its strictly user determined, then there is no need for ratings which means there is no way to differentiate between good players and bad.

# 112 Knight165 @ 09/21/10 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swaldo


	Oh please not those words . All I'm talking about is putting results into the hands of the user. As much as possible, the more the merrier. The morphing and such is happening because ratings and other factors (see Countyboy's post) are dictating results rather than user input. That's fine if I'm playing coach mode only, but if I'm controlling the action I want to be in charge of the results. Nobody can deny that the CPU dictates some outcomes no matter what input a user provides, and I responded because someone was called a liar for stating such. It's not a lie, it's a fact. Just do a youtube search for 'The Show PCI hitting tutorial.' While the guy is teaching he gets all confused at the results he's getting while batting - and he's supposed to be an expert. The PCI system is not bad. But if it's too easy for a poor hitter to hit a good pitcher don't give me random results. Instead, find ways to increase the difficulty so I'm still in charge of the action.

I think 60 or so guys at SCEA "deny" it.....and call me crazy, but I think they should know!

M.K.
Knight165

# 113 swaldo @ 09/21/10 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HustlinOwl


	I was stating lies because you PYS players come in here and stating that The Show hitting system is all random which it is not.

Wow, so basically I've been accused of implying comeback code and being a PYS fanboy but I didn't mention one word of either. This thread is neutral - the purpose being to find out what The Show can do to improve the game for 2011. All ideas and discussion should be welcome, and the fact is that I like the Show, care about it's future and want to make it known that I want more contol.

If someone comes in and says "Hey, 2K does this right and should be implimented in The Show"' why put them down, attack them and call them liars? I will just leave quietly and report your posts. Whether you're Pro-Show or anti-Show, putting someone down who's just trying to add their input and have an open dialog is now considered a violation of forum rules.

# 114 ryan36 @ 09/21/10 01:27 AM

Hey guys...let's recognize that people can have different opinions on the same game.... I feel like the hitting is very responsive and realistic...but when it says timing "perfect" location "meatball" or whatever it is (Can't remember the words right now) , and I hit a long fly ball and it's "swung on and belted deep to 2nd base" I too get a little confused.

Either way, keep things simple, I'd like to keep this thread open. Thank you

# 115 Pared @ 09/21/10 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swaldo


	How can you call this lies, have you ever looked at a replay? -SNIP-

Sorry, but replays don't accurately portray your point at all.

We've been told time and time again that the replays can't show EXACTLY what happens (bat to ball) because of how they are done. Have you ever played online and seen a replay of a ball go at a batters head after he obviously made contact?

Same concept.

Believe what you will, but please stop using this as "evidence."

Quote:

Originally Posted by HustlinOwl


	I was stating lies because you PYS players* come in here and stating that The Show hitting system is all random which it is not.*

This is completely unnecessary.

# 116 Heroesandvillains @ 09/21/10 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swaldo


	Wow, so basically I've been accused of implying comeback code and being a PYS fanboy but I didn't mention one word of either. This thread is neutral - the purpose being to find out what The Show can do to improve the game for 2011. All ideas and discussion should be welcome, and the fact is that I like the Show, care about it's future and want to make it known that I want more contol. If someone comes in and says "Hey, 2K does this right and should be implimented in The Show"' why put them down, attack them and call them liars? I will just leave quietly and report your posts. Whether you're Pro-Show or anti-Show, putting someone down who's just trying to add their input and have an open dialog is now considered a violation of forum rules.

Whoa whoa whoa...hang on a sec. I never said you meant comeback code. I meant that it sounded as if you were refering to something that you simply weren't saying. You're response to me cleared that up. I never meant to imply that comeback code was your theory. I was just wondering if that was what you meant. You said NO. I believe you.

Sorry Swaldo for any confusion. I probably didn't explain my post very well.

# 117 swaldo @ 09/22/10 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by countryboy


	Then why have ratings? Ratings have to account for something and my guess is that you're using that as the catapult for this "randomness" idea that you're chasing. If the sole purpose is to have the user's input dictate the outcomes of the action, then how are we to differentiate the difference between a good player and a poor player? -SNIPPET-

I don't know why you say I'm "chasing" a randomness theory when there's obviously some sort of dice roll going on under the hood (based on various ratings of the players involved etc.) You even confirmed that in your posts and is similiar to text based games - the only difference being you do have some control over the outcome.

Anyway, you can have more user control and still have ratings. It would go something like this.

Batters Vision rating: You're going to need to bring in something similiar to MVP's "Hitters Eye" system which turns the baseball different colors in the pitcher's hand and leaves a trail as the ball flies through the air toward the plate to aid in hitting. Good hitters would be able to see the colors longer than poor hitters - and some hitters won't be able to see it at all.

Batters Contact rating: This one is simple, you increase or decrease the size of the PCI to reflect their rating. For example pitchers (at bat) will have a tiny PCI while Ichiro types will have a large PCI.

Batters Power rating: This will be smaller than the contact PCI and will effect distance and trajectory.

Batter Discipline rating: This one is tough because the user is basically in contol of discipline. However, you could tie in check swings here. Good hitters would easily be able to check swing while poor hitters would rarely be able to pull it off. Check swings are best with fully loaded swing animations (ala MVP) that's why 2K initially didn't have CW's this year (because their swings are pre-loaded so it was tough to program in check swings.) So maybe you'd have fully loaded swing animations for good hitters who can easily check swing, and pre-loaded animations for poor hitters. Of course there are compications with this but I'm just throwing this out there as an idea.

Pitcher ratings: tweaking the fastball is the key since over 90% have that listed as thier #1 pitch in the game. Talk to baseball players and they'll tell you ace pitcher's fastballs "Are hard to see" or "Have extra pop" or "Have excellent or sinking movement." In The Show all fastballs look and act the same. So they need to make it harder to hit highly rated fastballs, so maybe make it so you can't see the ball out of the hand, or add some movement, or a little extra zip, or make the ball smaller thus harder to hit. Now do the opposite with poorly rated pitches and if you apply this concept to all pitch types you'll have a real challenge at the plate.

And good pitchers in general should be painting corners more often, while poor pitchers should be throwing more over the plate or lose control and issue walks. Meanwhile, stamina ratings could stay the same and you can throw out all those other ratings such as H/9, W/9, SO/9 etc.

If you throw in true bat/ball physics what you'll have is a system where the user is in control of his own destiny. Players will still have ratings and will perform as they do in real life without all the dice rolls. Yes this would entail a ton of tweaking and adjusting but it can be done.

# 118 swaldo @ 09/22/10 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pared


	Sorry, but replays don't accurately portray your point at all. We've been told time and time again that the replays can't show EXACTLY what happens (bat to ball) because of how they are done. Have you ever played online and seen a replay of a ball go at a batters head after he obviously made contact? Same concept. Believe what you will, but please stop using this as "evidence."

This quote is from Wikipedia regarding video compression:

"The only difference between one frame and another is the result of either the camera moving or an object in the frame moving. In reference to a video file, this means much of the information that represents one frame will be the same as the information used in the next frame."

So if you look at a static camera replay of a flat fastball morphing straight through a bat (which basically has a flat swing as it crosses the plate) I don't understand how this can be skewed? If you're looking at the full information every 4th frame you'd still see the ball on a collision course with the bat.

I'm not saying you or countryboy are wrong, but one thing I'd like to know is if the devs confirmed there is absolutely 100% no morphing in the game - or did they just say replay's are at times are inaccurate? I just have a gut feeling that if someone who's a videophile (I'm not) reduced the contact slider all the way down and recorded live action they'd find morphing. It's off topic anyway so we should probably save the whole thing for another day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by heroesandvillians


	Whoa whoa whoa...hang on a sec. I never said you meant comeback code. I meant that it sounded as if you were refering to something that you simply weren't saying. You're response to me cleared that up. I never meant to imply that comeback code was your theory. I was just wondering if that was what you meant. You said NO. I believe you. Sorry Swaldo for any confusion. I probably didn't explain my post very well.

No problem, I just wanted to make it clear to not imply that I was implying something else. Just read it for what it is, an agenda free post.

# 119 Pared @ 09/22/10 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swaldo


	This quote is from Wikipedia regarding video compression: "The only difference between one frame and another is the result of either the camera moving or an object in the frame moving. In reference to a video file, this means much of the information that represents one frame will be the same as the information used in the next frame." So if you look at a static camera replay of a flat fastball morphing straight through a bat (which basically has a flat swing as it crosses the plate) I don't understand how this can be skewed? If you're looking at the full information every 4th frame you'd still see the ball on a collision course with the bat. I'm not saying you or countryboy are wrong, but one thing I'd like to know is if the devs confirmed there is absolutely 100% no morphing in the game - or did they just say replay's are at times are inaccurate? I just have a gut feeling that if someone who's a videophile (I'm not) reduced the contact slider all the way down and recorded live action they'd find morphing. It's off topic anyway so we should probably save the whole thing for another day.

Oh no, not a Wikipedia quote!

Seriously though, compression of a video doesn't equate with how they are using. We are referring to calculations and such where the values may be used to recreate the scenario, not a literal video recording that is compressed. You can compress a video file, not the actual execution.

What they could be doing is recording the ball trajectory somewhat near what happened in real-time to and dropping values in certain areas to save space used on the PS3. Just my speculation here. If 1+2+3=6, then maybe they are doing 2+4=6 and that's why you're seeing the same result, with an off-line replication of the ball trajectory.

Just random thoughts being thrown out there.

# 120 HustlinOwl @ 09/22/10 02:22 PM

After reading what the NBA 2k team has done with their game this year it is simply amazing to think how all of this is possible on an engine that they have been using for more than a decade. Would like to encourage the SCEA team to continue the work they are doing and keep building on what they have established. No need to change or add to gameplay simply tweaking and tightening it up while adding to Franchise mode and visuals will do wonders. This will be my first NBA 2k game since 2k4

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