News Post

Why All-Pro Football Still Trumps Madden

11:26 AM - September 8, 2009 by RaychelSnr

Like a lot of sports fans, I have spent time getting to know the “popular girl” of sports gaming, EA’s Madden 10.

What probably separates my experience from most is that, as someone who has yet to buy an EA football game this generation, I’m usually content with a rental of the latest Madden or NCAA Football. I'm usually content because a weekend of play tends to be enough time for me to realize that the game is still way behind my old flame, All-Pro Football 2K8, in the one area that matters most: gameplay.

This time around I spent more than one weekend with the game, but now that I have had some time to get a feel for the game, here are some reasons why I feel Madden 10 still can't match up to the standards set by my reigning king of gameplay, All-Pro Football 2K8.

Read More - Why All-Pro Football Still Trumps Madden

Game: All-Pro Football 2K8Reader Score: 8/10 - Vote Now
Platform: PS3 / Xbox 360Votes for game: 57 - View All

Member Comments

# 41 Joborule @ 09/09/09 02:02 AM

Good artcile. Agree with pretty much everything in the OP.

# 42 joe18 @ 09/09/09 03:36 AM

Why can't 2K do what Madden used to do and have all the teams in the NFL but just use their city names for team names and numbers for representing players. Then just allow people to use the share roster online feature, and BAM, instant awesome football game.

# 43 Super Glock @ 09/09/09 04:08 AM

Sorry I really enjoy the write ups on OS most of the time but this is just plain silly to compare All Pro 2K8 to Madden 10. I understand not everyone is an EA fan but give me a break.

# 44 jyoung @ 09/09/09 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Glock


	this is just plain silly to compare All Pro 2K8 to Madden 10.

Why?

Both games claim to be accurate representations of professional football, so what's wrong with looking at what happens on these games' fields play and analyzing where they fall short of capturing the intricacies of the sport?

All this article's looking at it is gameplay, which has nothing to do with things like franchise mode or NFL licenses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Segagendude


	Exactly my thoughts. When APF hit, I was tempted. But after reading about generic teams, I passed. That, and no franchise mode. So what-------I play one season, and.....and.......game over???? Fun stuff.........eh, no.

You join a league and you start your own online franchise, college football dynasty, fantasy draft, whatever; the game is flexible enough to accommodate just about any league type you and your league-mates can think up.

I've participated in tons over the last couple of years and they all trump just about any offline mode you could think up.

This game was made for head-to-head play, whether offline or online, not grinding out season after season against a predictable AI opponent.

# 45 Valdarez @ 09/09/09 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Glock


	Sorry I really enjoy the write ups on OS most of the time but this is just plain silly to compare All Pro 2K8 to Madden 10. I understand not everyone is an EA fan but give me a break.

Yeah... comparing two football games. Crazy.

Good write up. I have yet to purchase Madden as I have only purchased it used off eBay since the 2005 exclusive license tragedy when the NFL and EA consorted to ruin football gaming for a half a decade (now to be what, 8 years of sticking it to the fans?).

I finally got NCAA for under $30 delivered. It got good reviews on the game sites, but many gamers are trashing it... so I don't expect a lot out of it especially since it was Madden who saw most of the gameplay updates.

What I'm seeing from the APF2K8 Gamers who bought the hype is that at first they were happy with the game as there were gameplay improvements, but the more they played it the more they disliked it as they realized that the gameplay though improved still falls short of APF2K8 (not to mention numerous bugs). Most have come back to APF2K8 and the others seem to only be playing the online franchise (primarily based on forum posts / friends list conversations).

I played the Madden demo and I was still disappointed with the game. Still no route based passing. Still issues with running mechanics (no momentum / proper footwork / direction changes). Still instant turn changes (glossed over with a pretty little circle now, but still there just different animation).

I'm pretty much on board with the poster who said the game engine needs an overhaul. It seems that there are just too many foundational issues with Madden that keep it from being a quality football game from a gameplay standpoint.

# 46 spankdatazz22 @ 09/09/09 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Glock


	Sorry I really enjoy the write ups on OS most of the time but this is just plain silly to compare All Pro 2K8 to Madden 10. I understand not everyone is an EA fan but give me a break.

I will say it's difficult to make a direct comparison of the two games. Just as I have a problem making a direct comparison of 2K5 or Madden last gen to Madden 10 next gen - you really can only make indirect comparisons. We're trying to compare games that are at a huge disadvantage because of age, technology, and in APF's case lacking the NFL license. APF was a one-year next-gen effort and didn't benefit of multiple years of feedback and tweaking. This is Madden's 5th. And I'm sure there will still be some people that will say "give [them] a break, this is Ian's first year" (despite that not being close to being true; he's been integral to Madden development for several years at least). The problem for Madden is that it hasn't put these comparisons to rest despite having every advantage imaginable.

I don't think APF trumps Madden 10 across the board as the article hints at. But there are still several key areas (OL/DL, DB/WR play & interaction, QB play) where APF performs fundamentally better. Or at the very least, those things are still debateable. And that looks really bad on Madden's part.

# 47 Eddie1967 @ 09/09/09 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Glock


	Sorry I really enjoy the write ups on OS most of the time but this is just plain silly to compare All Pro 2K8 to Madden 10. I understand not everyone is an EA fan but give me a break.

It's actually a fair comparison because the article is talking about game play. Madden is supposed to simulate the NFL, but besides the uniforms and team names, it doesn't do that very well IMHO. If APF was fully customizable I think a lot of people would be very happy because it does a better job of simulating football than madden does.

# 48 RogueHominid @ 09/09/09 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grunt


	The best thing is that I have NFL 2k5 with updated rosters, APF2k8, and Madden 10. I have three football games that I can totate. My favorite is APF2k8 because I am a scheme guy. I use to love reading Autumn post regarding personel. I think APF2k8 just fit a certain type of gamer. It is almost like the game was made for me. One thing I want people to notice when we talk about 2k8 we usually talk about x's and o's when I go on the Madden board you rarely ever hear about x's and o'x.

I'm pretty well over APF, and I think generally we need to be more patient with learning what's in Madden and what it can do since we spent 2 years learning what APF could do, but you have a good point in your kind words about my long-winded posts.

A great feature of APF was the mystery surrounding the players. You had to play lots of games with those guys to figure out what they could and couldn't do, and that was really immersive and authentic. It was a blast to try different guys in different schemes.

I do think that Madden has provided some clear player differentiation but much of it is discernible through numerical ratings. I'm not a big fan of that, but it's not going away. I definitely miss learning that Cromwell was a great run support guy, good in zone, had marginal hands, and was slower than Marion, who was better in man and had even worse hands while being a decent tackler.

# 49 CreatineKasey @ 09/09/09 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Autumn Wind


	I'm pretty well over APF, and I think generally we need to be more patient with learning what's in Madden and what it can do since we spent 2 years learning what APF could do, but you have a good point in your kind words about my long-winded posts. A great feature of APF was the mystery surrounding the players. You had to play lots of games with those guys to figure out what they could and couldn't do, and that was really immersive and authentic. It was a blast to try different guys in different schemes. I do think that Madden has provided some clear player differentiation but much of it is discernible through numerical ratings. I'm not a big fan of that, but it's not going away. I definitely miss learning that Cromwell was a great run support guy, good in zone, had marginal hands, and was slower than Marion, who was better in man and had even worse hands while being a decent tackler.

Madden has player character this year, which is good. It also has everything spelled out for you (as you said) which I don't like. Abilities were just so much fun to work with. People could actually have debates over similar tiered players as to who is better. In most sports games you just look at the number given... lame.

# 50 LBzrule @ 09/09/09 02:14 PM

I agree on the trenches. EA still has not caught up with 2k there yet. One problem that I have with both games though is that to me both games have the DE's and 3-4 OLB's coming out of their stance and off the line too slow. 2k8 is year's beyond Madden in the pass blocking department with the ability of linemen to pass one defender off to another lineman.

I also absolutely abhor the sixth sense of A.I QB's, which is one of the reasons why I stopped playing against the A.I in EA games a long time ago. You can even change your coverage at the last second and the QB still already knows where to put it within one second after the ball is hiked. That tells me it does not read coverage. And the things that apply to me never apply to the A.I. I cannot stop my drop if the play has the QB dropping 7 steps. But the A.I can stop its drop if I'm getting pressure. The procedural awareness does not kick in for WR's as they are always ready for the ball whether they have made their cut or not. No sense of timing in the passing game. Anyways, I like the new Madden but it has a much longer way to go than I previously thought.

# 51 lostintravise @ 09/09/09 02:34 PM

great post. agreed with everything you said.

# 52 fisher @ 09/09/09 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormJH1


	Good point. What's the most frequent complaint against buying Madden year after year? "Oh, you're getting nothing more than a roster update." With APF, not only was the gameplay only a mediocre refinement of 2k5's last-gen engine, but you don't even get a "roster update" because: (1) The game isn't made or supported anymore (2) The game lacks an NFL license (3) There were never real "rosters" to begin with b/c you had this strange alternate universe where fake players and retired NFL vets play in a "league"

And this is why All-Pro Football ultimately failed (gameplay wise, it played a better game than Madden). There's no way a football game released without legit NFL rosters (or real NCAA schools) will succeed, irregardless of how good the gameplay is. Nothing 2K (or anyone else for that matter) does can change that.

Which is a shame, really. Football games are the worst sports games out there these days exactly because there's no competition (2K's baseball game is pretty subpar, but baseball fans still have the Show to play; NBA fans have 2 games to choose from (I prefer NBA 2K); NHL fans have 2 games to choose from (I prefer EA's NHL series)).

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormJH1


	(4) Roster management never would've worked in a game with no ratings, transactions, drafts, or franchise modes anyway. Rather than always hiding behing the "big, bad EA" argument, why are those shortcomings overlooked?

Nobody's overlooking what you pointed out as flaws of All-Pro Football. The problem is that it's exactly because of the NFL's exclusive license with EA that nobody else can make an NFL game (and like you and I said above, nobody's going to care about fake players and fake leagues).

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormJH1


	When people evaluate Madden or NCAA, they invariably say stupid things like "Well, this game lacks true field degradation and time of day progression, so those are deal-breakers for me" Crappy, niche features that nobody notices are "deal-breakers", but the total failure to provide anything looking like a professional football league of any kind is not!?!

Funny, but a lot of football fans want their football games to be somewhat sim. You know, they want the stuff in the game to mirror what they see on Sundays. The problem with Madden is that it doesn't even try to be sim-like. It's the same old problems year after year and it's a pretty bad time to be a football gamer these days. Madden was at its best at around 2005 on the Xbox/PS2 (ironically enough, when 2K was making NFL games as well). The fear EA had of competition to their biggest selling game made them buy out exclusive rights and now the rest of us are stuck with one choice.

It's not like EA's sports games are all trash. Look what they've done with the NHL series. If the Madden team put even a quarter of the effort into their game that the NHL crew does, it might well be a half way decent game.

# 53 DCMC @ 09/09/09 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormJH1


	Good point. What's the most frequent complaint against buying Madden year after year? "Oh, you're getting nothing more than a roster update." With APF, not only was the gameplay only a mediocre refinement of 2k5's last-gen engine, but you don't even get a "roster update" because: (1) The game isn't made or supported anymore (2) The game lacks an NFL license (3) There were never real "rosters" to begin with b/c you had this strange alternate universe where fake players and retired NFL vets play in a "league" (4) Roster management never would've worked in a game with no ratings, transactions, drafts, or franchise modes anyway. Rather than always hiding behing the "big, bad EA" argument, why are those shortcomings overlooked? When people evaluate Madden or NCAA, they invariably say stupid things like "Well, this game lacks true field degradation and time of day progression, so those are deal-breakers for me" Crappy, niche features that nobody notices are "deal-breakers", but the total failure to provide anything looking like a professional football league of any kind is not!?!

This

# 54 Computalover @ 09/09/09 04:32 PM

Stick Skillz?? WAAY TO EASY MAN! LOL!!

He wants to play REAL ball?? lmao!! well.. go try out for a semi pro team, or a college team if you wanna play "REAL" ball.. I did both and video games arent even close to "REAL" ball.. lmao!!

never had a bone broken, ACL strains and bruises playing madden.. but does carpal tunnel count? lmao!!

# 55 shavane @ 09/09/09 04:56 PM

Great article very well written, thought out, and informative. I will begin by saying that I have bought every edition of Madden from roughly 92 on. I returned 05 to 09 because they were just bad games. I'm finally able to play and enjoy 10 but I'm not blind and I'm not a fool because there are huge holes and flaws with this game.

When comparing 2k5 to Madden you have to immediately handicap the discussion because

1. 2k5 was 5 years ago on a ps2 or xbox.

2. Both games had flaws, money plays, and problems with line blocking. I could get 77 sacks with my DT because of one of these flaws, and 28 picks with a safety on 2k which is a serious flaw. But 5 years is a lot of time to fix these flaws...hey we still have these same type of flaws on Madden.

Overall if you ran 100 plays on Madden, and 100 on 2k, the line play is far superior. 2k had that little slide animation on running plays, when RBs came into contact with the back of the lineman instead of running in place like Madden they slid to one side or the other this is a seamless animation that kept the flow and was realistic. We want complete control but sometimes having something like that actually helps.

3. The passing game was sick...like I said there were money plays and unstoppable fades and corner routes but they developed more realistically and overall it was more organic like a real football game. Madden seems canned and predetermined if the play called is a post then thats what they run on Madden 2k they run a post but if your WR has awareness its a post to the soft spot of the D instead of a predetermined post directly into the safety follow.

4. Defensively and offensively players just moved better and more realistic than Madden.

5. Its five years later and we are still having this discussion thats just mindblowing.

# 56 TombSong @ 09/09/09 04:59 PM

AP2K8 with whatever flaw you could bring up about it is still WAY better than Madden on the field.

The WR route running.
The Oline/Dline interaction
The way you call your defensive hot routes is faster and better.
The fact that you CAN run a fade route in the game(they ARE defensible...VERY defensible) In Madden the streak and the fade are dead.

The defense plays their zones better and without warping/super leaping

The man defense did not cheat. (run the WRs routes before the WR's)

Star players stood out and the scrubs had distinguishing abilities.

Could create your own playbooks.
Formation audibles.
Better commentary.
etc etc

Madden still got a long way to go.

# 57 killzonemaniac @ 09/09/09 05:40 PM

still playing nfl 2k5

# 58 CharlieBlack @ 09/09/09 05:45 PM

Great article. Madden is getting better, but the engine for 2k overall is still the best.

# 59 Only1LT @ 09/09/09 06:15 PM

You make some great points OP. I agree with most of it and also agree, wholeheartedly, that 2K gameplay is much better than Madden's. This goes for the golden years of Madden, ie 2005, as well.

Madden 10 is definitely playable, and I appreciate the strides that it has made, but after playing 2K5 and 2K8, it is very hard to really enjoy Madden anymore, because I know how green the grass is on the other side. And no, this does NOT mean that 2K is perfect. This is the oldest means to derail a discussion that I have ever seen. All it means is that in my opinion, 2K is a MUCH closer representation of real Football, even with it's shortcomings, than Madden is. Don't even get me started on the passing game comparison lol.

As for the OP, again, good post, but one thin I must say as a negative though are your vidz. They are way too short, start sometimes too late to capture the essence of what you are pointing out, and should have been shown at regular and then slow-mo to get the point across better. I had to rewind them about 5 times each to really see what was wrong in the vid. The other vidz by other people that you linked to were good though.

# 60 lasthour @ 09/09/09 06:19 PM

Hey LB could 2k release 2k5 on xbox live, in high defintion. And maybe with some sort of patched updated version also?

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