News Post

Why All-Pro Football Still Trumps Madden

11:26 AM - September 8, 2009 by RaychelSnr

Like a lot of sports fans, I have spent time getting to know the “popular girl” of sports gaming, EA’s Madden 10.

What probably separates my experience from most is that, as someone who has yet to buy an EA football game this generation, I’m usually content with a rental of the latest Madden or NCAA Football. I'm usually content because a weekend of play tends to be enough time for me to realize that the game is still way behind my old flame, All-Pro Football 2K8, in the one area that matters most: gameplay.

This time around I spent more than one weekend with the game, but now that I have had some time to get a feel for the game, here are some reasons why I feel Madden 10 still can't match up to the standards set by my reigning king of gameplay, All-Pro Football 2K8.

Read More - Why All-Pro Football Still Trumps Madden

Game: All-Pro Football 2K8Reader Score: 8/10 - Vote Now
Platform: PS3 / Xbox 360Votes for game: 57 - View All

Member Comments

# 1 LingeringRegime @ 09/08/09 11:49 AM

Great article. I really like the strides Madden has made this year, but as you said the APF is still the best game on the field.

# 2 plasticbeast @ 09/08/09 11:55 AM

I agree with everything you point out. I wish so much that APF had the type of customization needed to recreate the nfl... I still play 2k5 but the graphics are getting pretty dated now when I am used to playing everything in HD.

I will still continue to play Madden but probably only to check out the Draft classes that the Head coach guys brouoght over and play my friend online as a change up from APF everyonce and a while.

# 3 Phobia @ 09/08/09 11:56 AM

Great read and I agree on just about every note.

# 4 Ijeswannaknow @ 09/08/09 12:13 PM

I still play All-Pro Football 2K8 and NFL 2K5...till this day!!! I just played a game of All-Pro last night... I havent played Madden 10 in about 10 days because of the same ol sh!+...
2K just needs to make a new football game and call it Pro Football 2k10 and blow EA Sports out the water!!! To me 2K didnt have to stop making football games bcuz of the loss of the NFL License...Just keep making games for the fans....Plllllllllllleeeeeeaaaaaassssse 2K if reading this!!! Just do it!!!!

# 5 elgreazy1 @ 09/08/09 12:21 PM

While I am/was a huge fan of APF2K8 -- having logged 1000+ games online easily in 2+ years -- I will have to disagree with some points made in this article. While M10 may still not be the end-all SIM-god of all football, it's very tough to say that APF was even near flawless itself. Some of the points you make are excellent in terms of M10’s faults, especially in terms of line-play & route mechanics, but APF has many faults of it’s own in some areas in which you touched upon it being superior.

While M10 has issues with pass & run blocking, APF had those as well. When the APF blocking mechanics were on, oh man is it simply a thing of absolute beauty in terms of replicating real line-play, but when it’s off, it is the most frustrating & aggravating thing to behold. I can’t recall how many times I would shift my line, leave in HBs & TEs to block and still have a DT tackle through the center without being touched as a Guard starred as he ran by. Also, on run plays with pulling OL there are countless times when my blocker would pull, have a perfect angle at a defender to seal off the trench only to have that same blocker completely pass him up & head up-field – same goes for FBs completely whiffing on blocks. These missed blocks weren’t rare, they were common place, and what was worse, it was completely random; from Generic to Gold-level OL, players would simply have brain farts that made absolutely no sense.

As far as momentum & such in both, I would have loved to see a blend of the two games, but there were times in APF where defensive controls were downright brutal or players had far too much momentum. There are countless times when I simply could not control defenders due to over-momentum. For example, when at the line before the snap, when trying to attempt to creep a defender towards the line, said defender will make a 5-yard jump, even with a slight push forward on the sticks, thus forcing you to pull back hard on the line and putting you out of position. This happens on nearly every play. The physics of the defense was simply too heavy while the offense had it just right, thus it made manually covering & pursuit downright impossible unless you either had a Silver+ tiered Legend or a player with Quick Feet. Generics? Forget about it, their momentum would take them out of plays more than help.

Now, in terms of the passing game, yes I will agree, APF has things held down when it comes to replicating real football, but even then the game has warts in itself. Route-based patterns are non-existent in M10, which makes running any WCO very difficult, but in the same regard, APF had it’s share of money routes. Anything that involved the hot-route up & out was an instant catch (well documented by Valdarez), the fade is nearly unstoppable even with elite CBs, and any route that incorporated the fade’s hitch & go was hard to stop thanks to the offensive speed boost & the secondary AI’s stupidity. Speaking of secondary AI, it was downright horrible. The Willie Brown’s, Night Train Lane’s & Rod Woodson’s of the game still get beat and beat often due to the AI. Defenders simply just stand there as the plays begin, whether they were in zone or man coverage. The only time to ever get consistent play out of the secondary was to run all press coverage all game, which turned most games into vanilla games of defensive gameplanning. God forbid you didn’t have a Bump Buster on your team or it would be a long day.

As far as special teams go, I will have to disagree with Kicker accuracy. In APF, Generic kickers were always money for me from the 35 yard line and closer (unless I had 7mph+ winds against me), M10 is not so much the case. I see players (CPU & Human) miss chip shots & such, there is no gimme kick in this game. I will agree that the holding calls are a little bizarre and very frustrating as they always seem to happen at least one kick per game. I will say though that on kick-offs & punting, APF did put a premium on having Legend kickers/punters over Generics. In that sense, they did a great job because a Legend could coffin corner a punt or boom a touchback, but a Generic would have accuracy issues and not enough leg power, thus giving up precious yardage.

In all, yes, M10 is not an APF killer, but for me, it did a great job in helping supplant my need for APF-based football for the time being. Who’s to say when my fix of Madden will subside but until then I’m enjoying playing a game of football where the bugs & glitches haven’t been dissected & exploited to death (as of yet). In terms of gameplay, yeah, I will openly admit I enjoyed playing APF more than I currently do M10 but at the same times there have been many games in APF where I felt I lost due to game-exploits, shotty AI, team builds over stick skills & gameplanning, that hasn’t been the case in M10 for me as of yet.

# 6 eyeknowzz @ 09/08/09 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elgreazy1


	While I am/was a huge fan of APF2K8 -- having logged 1000+ games online easily in 2+ years -- I will have to disagree with some points made in this article. While M10 may still not be the end-all SIM-god of all football, it's very tough to say that APF was even near flawless itself. Some of the points you make are excellent in terms of M10’s faults, especially in terms of line-play & route mechanics, but APF has many faults of it’s own in some areas in which you touched upon it being superior. While M10 has issues with pass & run blocking, APF had those as well. When the APF blocking mechanics were on, oh man is it simply a thing of absolute beauty in terms of replicating real line-play, but when it’s off, it is the most frustrating & aggravating thing to behold. I can’t recall how many times I would shift my line, leave in HBs & TEs to block and still have a DT tackle through the center without being touched as a Guard starred as he ran by. Also, on run plays with pulling OL there are countless times when my blocker would pull, have a perfect angle at a defender to seal off the trench only to have that same blocker completely pass him up & head up-field – same goes for FBs completely whiffing on blocks. These missed blocks weren’t rare, they were common place, and what was worse, it was completely random; from Generic to Gold-level OL, players would simply have brain farts that made absolutely no sense. As far as momentum & such in both, I would have loved to see a blend of the two games, but there were times in APF where defensive controls were downright brutal or players had far too much momentum. There are countless times when I simply could not control defenders due to over-momentum. For example, when at the line before the snap, when trying to attempt to creep a defender towards the line, said defender will make a 5-yard jump, even with a slight push forward on the sticks, thus forcing you to pull back hard on the line and putting you out of position. This happens on nearly every play. The physics of the defense was simply too heavy while the offense had it just right, thus it made manually covering & pursuit downright impossible unless you either had a Silver+ tiered Legend or a player with Quick Feet. Generics? Forget about it, their momentum would take them out of plays more than help. Now, in terms of the passing game, yes I will agree, APF has things held down when it comes to replicating real football, but even then the game has warts in itself. Route-based patterns are non-existent in M10, which makes running any WCO very difficult, but in the same regard, APF had it’s share of money routes. Anything that involved the hot-route up & out was an instant catch (well documented by Valdarez), the fade is nearly unstoppable even with elite CBs, and any route that incorporated the fade’s hitch & go was hard to stop thanks to the offensive speed boost & the secondary AI’s stupidity. Speaking of secondary AI, it was downright horrible. The Willie Brown’s, Night Train Lane’s & Rod Woodson’s of the game still get beat and beat often due to the AI. Defenders simply just stand there as the plays begin, whether they were in zone or man coverage. The only time to ever get consistent play out of the secondary was to run all press coverage all game, which turned most games into vanilla games of defensive gameplanning. God forbid you didn’t have a Bump Buster on your team or it would be a long day. As far as special teams go, I will have to disagree with Kicker accuracy. In APF, Generic kickers were always money for me from the 35 yard line and closer (unless I had 7mph+ winds against me), M10 is not so much the case. I see players (CPU & Human) miss chip shots & such, there is no gimme kick in this game. I will agree that the holding calls are a little bizarre and very frustrating as they always seem to happen at least one kick per game. I will say though that on kick-offs & punting, APF did put a premium on having Legend kickers/punters over Generics. In that sense, they did a great job because a Legend could coffin corner a punt or boom a touchback, but a Generic would have accuracy issues and not enough leg power, thus giving up precious yardage. In all, yes, M10 is not an APF killer, but for me, it did a great job in helping supplant my need for APF-based football for the time being. Who’s to say when my fix of Madden will subside but until then I’m enjoying playing a game of football where the bugs & glitches haven’t been dissected & exploited to death (as of yet). In terms of gameplay, yeah, I will openly admit I enjoyed playing APF more than I currently do M10 but at the same times there have been many games in APF where I felt I lost due to game-exploits, shotty AI, team builds over stick skills & gameplanning, that hasn’t been the case in M10 for me as of yet.

Great post. I played APF for almost two years and I enjoyed the heck out of it but it had it's share of bugs and AI problems. It's funny how people seem to gloss over those issues with this game but yet they flame other games for the same reasons.

Your assessment of the blocking in this game was spot on. At times it was great and at other times it was horrible. I got so tired of seeing fat a** OL sprinting down field faster than my running back without throwing any meaningful blocks. Those fat boys would be in the back of the end zone running toward the stands while my back was just scoring. It was hilarious and frustrating at the same time.

It's funny because there were so many things that APF did right but some of its warts are the reasons why the game just feels old now. I don't even own this years versions of Madden or NCAA but I'm having trouble getting into APF now. Everything from the look of the game to the controls just feels so dated at this point.

# 7 GlennN @ 09/08/09 12:58 PM

If APF had Franchise mode, all would be well. As it stands, I need a Franchise mode these days!

# 8 GeDDeN7xxl @ 09/08/09 01:09 PM

Still trumps because it based on real football not Arcade like physics

# 9 sportyguyfl31 @ 09/08/09 01:35 PM

As much as I enjoyed my run with APF, I simply cannot agree.

APF has a ton of holes.

Run a base 3-2-5 with the following personnel each and every single down.

Ronnie Lott and Joey Browner at the 2nd string FS and SS spots

Lem Barney and Terry Mcdaniel at the corners

Eugene Robinson as your deep safety

Run coverage DL of choice, or a LB, depending on your preference

Stop everything.

What you really have, is a 3-4, for all practical purposes, but this set up is superior to the base 3-4 in the game, in virtually every way.

You will never have to get out of this formation, as Joey Browner, and Ronnie, are basically playing outside linebacker, and the run blocking AI, will not consistantly pick them up.

# 10 Phobia @ 09/08/09 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STICK-SK1LLZ


	man 2k stay with fanboys!!!! madden is cool this year man... idk care about halftime shows and cut scenes, thats all 2k5 ever had on madden.. i like gameplay and ea does it better.. so if u want to play 5 on 5 nba jam basket ball go get Nba 2k.. if you want a realistic game where you have to think, get nba live 10!!!!!!!!! ea does gameplay better than 2k, people play 2k because its like an arcade game... i want to play real ball so i will stick with ea..

Your name says everything we need to know about you.

# 11 bigsmallwood @ 09/08/09 02:18 PM

I agree with everything you have said here. There are some who say Madden 10 can do no wrong and bash 2K without reason....but These are huge problems for Madden and they have not been fixed yet (surprisingly).

# 12 Blzer @ 09/08/09 02:29 PM

I would own and play APF 2K8 daily if it had a franchise mode and the PS3 version had visuals that matched up with the 360 version, namely in the framerate. I played the 360 version non-stop, but I downloaded the PS3 demo and didn't play past one drive because of the framerate. It's unfortunate and I just need one more release from them at least to tide me over with the PS3 version being visually on par with the 360 version.

Come on 2K, we need you again!

# 13 bjones16 @ 09/08/09 03:08 PM

Great Post! I agree with everything. This is the reason why i cant play Madden. Thank god they didnt get my money this year

# 14 spixxx8 @ 09/08/09 03:35 PM

I don't understand why people think madden going to change... its like a cheating husband .. dude never going to change to but you keep taking him back lol

# 15 ANDROMADA 1 @ 09/08/09 03:36 PM

Its a nice article.I guess it boils down to what does 2k have to offer this year?The obvious answer is nothing and they should be ashamed for that.Ea has put out a product that has no competition that is actually quite enjoyable to me.I overlook most flaws in games that I buy otherwise I would have nothing to purchase and in this case the people that I play with make all the diference in the world.In no way do I feel that APF trumps Madden.That is absurd....dont believe me, just read some of the threads here about various issues...Both Games have ISSUES.I would rather Have the NEW ISSUES and DEV interactions than Rumors followed by more rumors with no official 2k statements.

# 16 StormJH1 @ 09/08/09 04:06 PM

Prefacing this post with the comment that I have traditionally been a Madden-basher, dating back to the exclusivity deal, I'm beyond that now, and purchased Madden 10 on release day and still love it. Is it without problems? Of course not! But I find it funny that games like NFL 2k5 and APF 2k8 get excused from their MANY shortcomings, for no other apparent reason than the fact that people hate EA.

The lack of any type of legitimate franchise (or even season mode, when you consider that most single season modes allow for trading, free agent acquisitions, etc.) cannot be glossed over...it was a MAJOR omission. In fact, for a football game that was primarily targeted at the hardcore football gamers (the people who kept the ghosts of NFL 2k5 alive in everyone's minds), omitting a franchise mode (even a barebones one with generic players), along with ratings systems and other features is simply inexcusable.

Also, please stop pretending like the gameplay in APF is bulletproof. Try scrambling away from a defensive tackle with a speedster like Randall Cunningham, and recognize that you can get caught in the open field on a pretty regular basis. Of course, only the people who play the game might even notice this, since 2k decided to "hide" all their player ratings. Defense (particularly pass coverage) is still practically unusable with human controls, and there are other unrealistic things that happen in the pass game that would've been universally ripped if they occured in a game with "Madden" on the cover.

APF was a failed experiment because 2k, once again, got so freaked out by the Madden behemoth that they focused a large portion of their time and resources chasing around hundreds of former NFL players that nobody today really cares about, rather than focusing on a making a quality title for football gamers.

IMO, APF and Madden aren't even true competitors. Anyone can go pick up 2k's valiant football effort for 7 dollars at your local GameStop, so why the need to constantly compare and contrast. And if APF is clearly so much better than Madden, how many people on your friends list would you ever see playing that game? Honestly? Perhaps if 2k had given us a reason to play more than a handful of games with it (or online with designated friends), we might have come back for more.

# 17 StormJH1 @ 09/08/09 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANDROMADA 1


	Its a nice article.I guess it boils down to what does 2k have to offer this year?The obvious answer is nothing and they should be ashamed for that.Ea has put out a product that has no competition that is actually quite enjoyable to me.I overlook most flaws in games that I buy otherwise I would have nothing to purchase and in this case the people that I play with make all the diference in the world.In no way do I feel that APF trumps Madden.That is absurd....dont believe me, just read some of the threads here about various issues...Both Games have ISSUES.I would rather Have the NEW ISSUES and DEV interactions than Rumors followed by more rumors with no official 2k statements.

Good point. What's the most frequent complaint against buying Madden year after year? "Oh, you're getting nothing more than a roster update." With APF, not only was the gameplay only a mediocre refinement of 2k5's last-gen engine, but you don't even get a "roster update" because:
(1) The game isn't made or supported anymore
(2) The game lacks an NFL license
(3) There were never real "rosters" to begin with b/c you had this strange alternate universe where fake players and retired NFL vets play in a "league"
(4) Roster management never would've worked in a game with no ratings, transactions, drafts, or franchise modes anyway.

Rather than always hiding behing the "big, bad EA" argument, why are those shortcomings overlooked?

When people evaluate Madden or NCAA, they invariably say stupid things like "Well, this game lacks true field degradation and time of day progression, so those are deal-breakers for me" Crappy, niche features that nobody notices are "deal-breakers", but the total failure to provide anything looking like a professional football league of any kind is not!?!

# 18 jyoung @ 09/08/09 04:13 PM

I don't think the assertion in this article is that All Pro Football is the more complete game compared to Madden but that it simply trumps Madden when it comes to gameplay.

Hard to argue with that, in my opinion, because even though both games have their flaws, All Pro Football has a lot less of them overall and has a lot more of the sport's fundamentals down (blocking, tackling, pass rush, route running) that Madden still hasn't figured out yet.

# 19 Michael Vick @ 09/08/09 04:17 PM

you guys are all idiots. i literally burned my all pro football because it was litterally THE WORST GAME I HAVE EVER PLAYED. it is fun to pick your players but the gameplay is just so awful. everything about it sucks

# 20 CreatineKasey @ 09/08/09 04:48 PM

Greazy, you and I both played for years and I definitely agree with you on this one. There are problems in APF that some would definitely see as game breaking. Your defense revolved around stopping the fade route if there was anything more than a generic WR out there. that alone limited what defensive plays you could call and turned many matches into "dink and dunk until you try to pressure and then I audible to the fade" which simplified an extremely complex game.

APF is generally an offensive biased game and I feel Madden is more balanced. APF would give the offensive player the benefit of the doubt more often than not with throws on time that were into coverage, with momentum, and with when the ball is snapped. Quick snapping in that game can completely ruin it also.

I personally prefer APF's kicking system, I like having no visual meter... it keeps us inconsistent and that's more real. Let's not all forget the corner kicking glitch where your returners slide out of bounds inside the 10 because of momentum and ball tracking issues.

What I'm getting at here is yes, APF's gameplay can outperform Madden's, but it needs a 5 page rulebook to do so. Not kidding. I, like Greazy, also enjoyed APF more in its hey day over M10. I really enjoyed the creating a team idea. You really grow attached to your players, style of play, and builds because you yourself chose it.

So that's where we sit. Hopefully 2k does us a favor and makes a little college football with an unlockable "pretend" *wink wink* dynasty mode with a playoff feature.

« Previous12 3 4 5 Next »

More Links

Why All-Pro Football Still Trumps Madden