Madden 09 News Post

Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

12:17 AM - May 15, 2008 by beau21

EA Sports have updated their Madden NFL 09 blog with tackling engine details and a video clip.

Quote:


	"One of our primary pet-peeves in Madden NFL has been in the responsiveness of tackling. We wanted to feel like as a ballcarrier or defender you are always in more control. The feeling of delay before a tackle started really took away from responsiveness. Also the "suction" you get when being pulled into tackles, well, sucks. We found that the cause of the delay was searching through our 300 and some odd tackles for one that "matched" the current scenario as close as we can, and while this may only take 1/10th to 1/4th of second, I found that delay un-acceptable. So we invented a whole new way to tackle this year."

Game: Madden NFL 09Reader Score: 7/10 - Vote Now
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Member Comments

# 141 Vadiplomat04 @ 05/15/08 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	Yes. I'm not going to move into the 3 and 4 man yet. At this point why can't we allow two guys at anytime, user controlled to do this? Let's play this out by taking a look at some images. Image 1 Notice in this image here Linebacker Michael Boley is on the ball carriers hip. This was due to the angle he took as well as the position of the HB. Now you have CB DeAngelo Hall here. What users want from what I gather is that in this given situation, they want to take over Hall and come in and finish off the runner. But this level of complexity has not been there in Madden and NCAA. Not saying it's not there this go around, I dont know but let's explore some issues as to why it has not been there. First of all, let's look at McAlister and Boley. Linebackers do not waist tackle like that in Madden/NCAA. It's always been the super hit or miss. And if it was the super hit the play was over. Second, McAlister has momentum and it does not completely come to a halt just because he encounters a defender, but in Madden/NCAA that has always been the case. Even though you have momentum, once you come into contact that momentum comes to a skreetching halt. Third, because of his momentum now it is a struggle/fight between McAlister and Boley. With Boley holding on, Hall should be able to come in and clean up. In Madden/NCAA we have never been able to do this. But this is true two player tackling. Hall doesn't have to knock Boley off. Boley is already in a position to where Hall or any other defender coming in will not knock him off. The key here though for this to happen is the back has to struggle upon contact with the first defender, something that has not been a part of Madden/NCAA. EA has done a good job of capturing this These are hits that are a part of the game and EA has done a good job of capturing those style of hits. However, context for those style of hits are not taken seriously. Ray Lewis decleated Pittman here because Pittman was unaware of Lewis. In EA's game you decleat players even when they are aware of you. It's the same thing with the pancake blocking. In video games they have guys pancaking guys that should not get pancaked. Linemen are most likely not going to pancake a defender who is aware of them. I see it in All Pro all the time and just shake my head. The OLB is standing there looking right at the TE and gets pancaked. Makes no sense. Diagram 3 What EA has not been so good at is the above diagram. George and the defender are both aware of one another. George's momentum carries him. Even though the defender makes the tackle he does not stop George upon contact and as a result George scored the TD in that game. No struggle by the backs = flat tackling/break tackling. Seems to me that's what people who are criticizing are getting at. The images here are rather fluid and my interpretation is not the only one, but I just tried to give some visual of what it is people seem to be talking about in their critique.

I agree with what your saying here....but if you read the blog it states that the new engine can brake animations at any point, so most of your issues with the engine are resolved do to that fact of having the animation brake out at any time. The hall picture for example where you want Hall to clean up the ball carrier can happend because the animation wouldn't play all the way out, it would be interupted by hall's tackle. Now what I really want to see is Hall hit the ballcarrier but the guy tackling the RB still holds on to him.

# 142 JRod @ 05/15/08 04:15 PM

Here's my definition of a gang tackle.

There are actually 3 guys making the tackle. I can't tell what the 4th guy is doing but he might be in on the tackle.

# 143 Vadiplomat04 @ 05/15/08 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRod


	Here's my definition of a gang tackle. There are actually 3 guys making the tackle. I can't tell what the 4th guy is doing but he might be in on the tackle.

As I said....two defenders have hold of him but once you get more then 2 or 3 there just tackleing each other.

# 144 BrianFifaFan @ 05/15/08 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRod


	Here's my definition of a gang tackle. There are actually 3 guys making the tackle. I can't tell what the 4th guy is doing but he might be in on the tackle.

He's posing for the highlight. Probably a CB or FS. And being a Bengals fan, thats the ONLY way we can tackle. We don't have anyone "Hit Stick" worthy! It just doesn't happen enough. LOL But that is a true gang tackle.

# 145 JRod @ 05/15/08 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vadiplomat04


	As I said....two defenders have hold of him but once you get more then 2 or 3 there just tackleing each other.

Oh come on, you see swarm tackling and gang tackling all the time in the NFL. Where two guys tackle a guy and third comes in to stop momentum or finish him off. This never happens in madden.

At most two guys can be in on a tackle. But most of the time, in madden, the first guy has to break off a tackle so the 2nd and 3rd guys can start the tackle animation.

# 146 BrianFifaFan @ 05/15/08 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vadiplomat04


	As I said....two defenders have hold of him but once you get more then 2 or 3 there just tackleing each other.

Yeah, but to bring down Jamal you have to do that or he's getting that 3rd and short. Or the yard for the TD. And a Hit Stick tackle ain't gonna stop him,even going low. You'll end up like David Pollack......

# 147 J-Unit40 @ 05/15/08 04:24 PM

That was the best I have seen of Madden so far. I actually may think about buying it after hearing other OS impressions.

# 148 SageInfinite @ 05/15/08 04:25 PM

Hate to bring 2k into the conversation but I think it relates well to the topic. As much some people hated the button tapping, I think it helped add realistic tackling. I think Madden needs something like this(actually Madden current gen had it a little bit).

The button tapping(struggling for yards), allowed time for defenders to come in and clean up the tackle. It also allowed time for users to break the tackle or either get tackled by that engaged defender. With Madden how it is now the you either get tackled or you break the tackle. So really to have a 2 man tackle both defenders have to have contact at the same time or really shortly after. With some sort of button tapping, it would really allow the user to have more control over the outcome on offense. On defense it would also help, as it would give time users to switch to another defender and clean up the hit and stop the ball carriers momentum.

I would have loved to see 2k expand this to 3 and 4 man tackling. Hopefully Madden can implement a system like this in the near future.

# 149 JRod @ 05/15/08 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Briankingsfan


	He's posing for the highlight. Probably a CB or FS. And being a Bengals fan, thats the ONLY way we can tackle. We don't have anyone "Hit Stick" worthy! It just doesn't happen enough. LOL But that is a true gang tackle.

Ha! Ya his eyes are right at the camera.

# 150 BrianFifaFan @ 05/15/08 04:31 PM

I've had an Epiphany! The guys do watch game film when programming the D. It's Bengals game film! That's why nobodys in postion and you can run around all day and your RB can burst for 75 yards. They watched us last year in Cleveland and said "that's Football!!!!!!!!"

# 151 Vadiplomat04 @ 05/15/08 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRod


	Oh come on, you see swarm tackling and gang tackling all the time in the NFL. Where two guys tackle a guy and third comes in to stop momentum or finish him off. This never happens in madden. At most two guys can be in on a tackle. But most of the time, in madden, the first guy has to break off a tackle so the 2nd and 3rd guys can start the tackle animation.

There are gang tackles in Madden that involve three people. Im saying if you have more then 2 people talking one player, some players are going to either a) just pile on the back of the defender (like in your picture) or b) knock off their own defender. Now if you watch the video your notice that the player are more aware of tackles and react better the tackles. The video also shows that when a player gets hit into another player that reaction is more realistic. I don't know what you want from this game, but you can't say that EA isn't trying their hardest to improve on the engine.

# 152 yamabushi @ 05/15/08 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Briankingsfan


	I've had an Epiphany! The guys do watch game film when programming the D. It's Bengals game film! That's why nobodys in postion and you can run around all day and your RB can burst for 75 yards. They watched us last year in Cleveland and said "that's Football!!!!!!!!"

As much as your joking, your also right on.

# 153 discostu1524 @ 05/15/08 04:40 PM

The Simpsons. The announcer guy at the baseball game from the episode where Marge starts her own pretzel business and gives free pretzels away. I hope I'm the first. I didn't read past this post yet. Woooooo! Video looked good too by the by. No suction blocking and tackling would be very nice.

# 154 BrianFifaFan @ 05/15/08 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yamabushi


	As much as your joking, your also right on.

Now all they've gotta do is mo-cap Chad arguing with Marvin and add suspensions, holdouts and a cutscene of a courtroom and I'll feel the "authenticity" to the Nth degree! Who-Dey! Maybe I'll trade for Pacman to add some more fun!

# 155 BezO @ 05/15/08 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vadiplomat04


	Ok....so you said that it takes two defenders to take a RB down...so what is the issue with the game if the do have 2+ defenders in the game.

My issue is that it's rare in the game. What I saw most of the time was the 2nd defender "exploding". The 2nd defender rarely engages in the tackle. So that's one wasted defender on the ground when in actuality, he had an advantage over the ball carrier because he was wrapped up. When that tackle is broken, and you know you had a 2nd defender there that should have finished things off, it can get frustrating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vadiplomat04


	And if you played 08' you do have control of the second (clean up) defender. I have had many hit stick tackles were the defender would stand up the defender then I would come and hit stick the ball carrier. The thing that need to be worked on is the AI of the CPU defeners adding on to the ball carrier

I don't use the hit stick and I found that though I had control of the 2nd defender, he would rarely engage in the tackle like I commanded. But it's the CPU defenders I'm really talking about. Most of the time I'm the 1st tackler in since I control the closest defender to the ball. My CPU help ends up on the ground or watching. I think we agree, no?

# 156 yamabushi @ 05/15/08 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Briankingsfan


	Now all they've gotta do is mo-cap Chad arguing with Marvin and add suspensions, holdouts and a cutscene of a courtroom and I'll feel the "authenticity" to the Nth degree! Who-Dey! Maybe I'll trade for Pacman to add some more fun!

Tiburon really wanted too add 'coach arguing' this year but there wasnt time with all the cars, and light poles that had to be modeled for the stadium exterior shots

# 157 Vadiplomat04 @ 05/15/08 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BezO


	My issue is that it's rare in the game. What I saw most of the time was the 2nd defender "exploding". The 2nd defender rarely engages in the tackle. So that's one wasted defender on the ground when in actuality, he had an advantage over the ball carrier because he was wrapped up. When that tackle is broken, and you know you had a 2nd defender there that should have finished things off, it can get frustrating. I don't use the hit stick and I found that though I had control of the 2nd defender, he would rarely engage in the tackle like I commanded. But it's the CPU defenders I'm really talking about. Most of the time I'm the 1st tackler in since I control the closest defender to the ball. My CPU help ends up on the ground or watching. I think we agree, no?

The blog also states it has elimated the "exploding" players issue...so that might be something that could help sovle the 2nd defender issue.

# 158 BrianFifaFan @ 05/15/08 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yamabushi


	Tiburon really* wanted too add 'coach arguing' this year but there wasnt time with all the cars, and light poles that had to be modeled for the stadium exterior shots*

# 159 BezO @ 05/15/08 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vadiplomat04


	The blog also states it has elimated the "exploding" players issue...so that might be something that could help sovle the 2nd defender issue.

I'm hoping. But in the same vid, I saw an explosion on a sideline tackle. There's still time. If they're claiming to have solved the problem, maybe they plan on cleaning it up before release. But making a claim and not showing the proof in the vid is not encouraging. I expected to see a ton of multi-player tackles after reading the blog.

# 160 countryboy @ 05/15/08 07:16 PM

Alright boys(girls?) now its time for a comment from a fan of Madden/EA to say something. And that something is......so-so.

The graphics are gorgeous, the lighting is beautiful and the new animations are great, but the video is nothing more than a highlight reel of one on one tackles. Hard to say. I was expecting to see more than just one on one tackles. The video gives you some things to like, but also gives you some things to ponder. Why no gang tackles? Why do defenders seem to still run at the ball carrier with "no agenda"?

I know its early and all, but here's chance that EA could've swept me off my feet, but only managed to make me smile and hope. I like what was mentioned in the blog, I really do, but words are words and actions are actions.

Now we all know that as sure as daylight will turn to night that I am going to buy this game, but I really didn't get that Wow! feeling from this video.

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