Madden 09 News Post

Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

12:17 AM - May 15, 2008 by beau21

EA Sports have updated their Madden NFL 09 blog with tackling engine details and a video clip.

Quote:


	"One of our primary pet-peeves in Madden NFL has been in the responsiveness of tackling. We wanted to feel like as a ballcarrier or defender you are always in more control. The feeling of delay before a tackle started really took away from responsiveness. Also the "suction" you get when being pulled into tackles, well, sucks. We found that the cause of the delay was searching through our 300 and some odd tackles for one that "matched" the current scenario as close as we can, and while this may only take 1/10th to 1/4th of second, I found that delay un-acceptable. So we invented a whole new way to tackle this year."

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Member Comments

# 41 Scott @ 05/15/08 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjv31


	Awesome job!! But who was the announcer?

I believe it was Harry Shearer

# 42 Nza @ 05/15/08 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjv31


	Awesome job!! But who was the announcer?

Announcer #1 according to

http://www.snpp.com/episodes/4F08.html

:P

But I'm guessing you meant who's voice?

# 43 Vikes1 @ 05/15/08 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	That looks pretty damn good. He alluded to no suction tackling so here's hoping that there is no suction blocking either.

This is a big hope of mine also.

# 44 LBzrule @ 05/15/08 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nza


	Maybe in 1 on 1 situations, but the video clearly shows the phenomena remains in 2 or more vs 1 situations. About a quarter through, Jacobs is down the sideline and a Pats defender takes out his legs, while the other is knocked over like a bowling pin. Hey, it can happen in real life. But what also happens in real life is the 2nd defender hits the free falling body in mid air and changes its direction with a collision. Sorry guys, but until that is a reality in Madden I won't be impressed. When you're fully aware of what animation systems are out there, it's hard to be impressed by anything still based on primitive physics engines.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I do think it looks better than 08 though. But you bring up some important points I noticed but didn't take them to task. Even in the very first frame something weird happens but I just let it be.

# 45 PVarck31 @ 05/15/08 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott


	I believe it was Harry Shearer

I actually thought it was Vin Scully. but im prob wrong.

# 46 stmark @ 05/15/08 01:46 AM

Hope you slip and slide in bad weather games those animations better be in there too..........One thing i want to know they if there will be water splashes in heavy rain games

# 47 Scott @ 05/15/08 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjv31


	I actually thought it was Vin Scully. but im prob wrong.

Shearer does an impression of Vin Scully in that episode, but its not Vin Scully himself

# 48 JRod @ 05/15/08 01:49 AM

It's still a lot of one-on-one tackles. Not a lot of football "swarming" going on here.

# 49 PVarck31 @ 05/15/08 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott


	Shearer does an impression of Vin Scully in that episode, but its not Vin Scully himself

AHH Gotcha.

# 50 Sef0r @ 05/15/08 02:05 AM

Nza.

I agreed with everything you say. They had a similar blog video from last year which was edited to show some "great" tackles and animation.

"Fool me once, shame on you....fool me twice.....umm......umm......you can't fool me twice" G.W Bush.

The tackle system has not changed, pure and simple. I am complaining, yes...but only because I am hoping they change to a new engine altogether.

For now I have to live with what we are given so here is to next year. This year is in the bag.
I don't want to argue with those who are going to tell me to pee off but those people will see come August that the product they will be playing is the same as 2008 with few changes in the core gameplay engine to make that much of a difference from 2008.

Disclaimer:
* Not a 2k Fanboy
* Not an EA *****
* A realist
* Loves NFL

# 51 BezO @ 05/15/08 02:11 AM

Sweet! At the least, EA has improved their 1-on-1 tackling. They looked great. I saw exactly what the rep was referring to regarding momentum of the "victim". When the ball carrier had momentum, the tackle moved forward. When the tackler had the advantage, the tackle went backward.

For not having a true physic engine, it looks like they're doing a good job this year. But...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nza


	...but the video clearly shows the phenomena remains in 2 or more vs 1 situations. About a quarter through, Jacobs is down the sideline and a Pats defender takes out his legs, while the other is knocked over like a bowling pin. Hey, it can happen in real life. But what also happens in real life is the 2nd defender hits the free falling body in mid air and changes its direction with a collision.

And this was apparent in earlier videos too. I hope they paid as much attention to the mult-tackler situations as they did the 1-on-1, as well as blocking. Earlier videos say no, but I didn't notice the improved 1-on-1 tackling in those videos either. That would be a pleasant surprise.

# 52 sva91 @ 05/15/08 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sef0r


	Nza. I agreed with everything you say. They had a similar blog video from last year which was edited to show some "great" tackles and animation. "Fool me once, shame on you....fool me twice.....umm......umm......you can't fool me twice" G.W Bush. The tackle system has not changed, pure and simple. I am complaining, yes...but only because I am hoping they change to a new engine altogether. For now I have to live with what we are given so here is to next year. This year is in the bag. I don't want to argue with those who are going to tell me to pee off but those people will see come August that the product they will be playing is the same as 2008 with few changes in the core gameplay engine to make that much of a difference from 2008. Disclaimer: * Not a 2k Fanboy * Not an EA ***** * A realist * Loves NFL

Could not have said it better myself. Also the lighting looks cool, but not lifelike. It seems as if they put a gray filter to make it look a little more cinematic. Some of the shots look like the movie Invincible. Still looks much better than last year though.

# 53 Deltron @ 05/15/08 02:21 AM

I'm happy to hear that the runner should be able to break tackles easier and it looks like jukes can be executed from a shorter distance too. Those are good things but I'll remain skeptical about this until I actually try it for myself.

I feel as if this article is a subtle or not so subtle attempt to undermine Backbreaker's newly touted ragdoll animations. While that game won't be a true competitor to EA, it does seem like an EA practice to preempt any competition in their sector which may be burgeoning.

The explanation offered for how this is a new animation system doesn't really sell me on the fact that it is truly a new system. If anything it states that motion captured animations are still present, but they are 'physics informed' -- whatever that actually means. For my money, it sounds as if the motion capture animation code was simply optimized to be faster and do away with some of the delay. The article also didn't really delve into how suction tackling figures into the gameplay mechanic other than stating it occurred via stalling out one player's momentum while a canned tackling animation was being searched for.

The fact of the matter is there still appears to be no gang tackling in the sense that other players can "add-on" to the tackling animation and change or shift the momentum of the pile and the runner. Until that update occurs, we will have to be satisfied with optimizations of their current mechanic. Which realistically, that's all I'm expecting after reading this article.

In reference to suction blocking, I'm also hoping that will be gone but the article doesn't really get specific about it. From the videos which are out, the pass blocking and the pocket formation look very similar to previous versions and the interactions between the dline and the oline still appear to be very stagnant and Tecmo Bowl like. In other words, I'm not getting my hopes up too high about improvements here. And I still feel as if this game will never really come close to replicating X's and O's football until they allow defenders to take on more than one blocker. You can pretty much throw out most real life defensive fronts until this change is present in the game.

All in all, it's nice to see the game becoming more responsive because that was one of my main gripes over the years. Running backs like Barry Sanders simply couldn't run they they could in real life because the tackling animations almost always started to take over when they were within 3 yards of any defender.

# 54 buttsakk @ 05/15/08 02:21 AM

Two things...

1) Patrick Willis will be Awesome to play with this year!

2) With all the LT tackle breaking animations, I wonder how GODLY Marion Barber will be. *thinks about 2k5 and Ricky Williams*

# 55 spankdatazz22 @ 05/15/08 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sef0r


	The tackle system has not changed, pure and simple. I am complaining, yes...but only because I am hoping they change to a new engine altogether.

I'm not a fan of the engine myself. The system looks improved; there's just something about it all that still looks off. It'll be interesting to see extended gameplay video - what was shown was a compilation, and so they were trying to show cool stuff. For me it's weird seeing so many of those flip tackles they seem to be in love with. I don't think every play needs some ESPN-highlight occurring regularly; sometimes the most remarkable things are better when they're subtle and more lifelike.

I also want to see if the system addresses player interaction on the whole. Figures they'd go with their own proprietary system versus implementing Euphoria; in the right hands something truly special could've been created w/that imo

# 56 SageInfinite @ 05/15/08 02:38 AM

Yea there's still too many 1 on 1 tackles for a next gen football game. They do look improved tho. Also I understand the hit stick is supposed to deliver those hard hits, but those WWE style flying clotheslines and shoulder tackles have got to go EA, lol. Overall the player interaction just needs to be overhauled. They are going in the right direction tho. I still can't wait to play 09.

# 57 Vikes1 @ 05/15/08 02:49 AM

Maybe it's just me...but it did kinda look like overall, the players movements seemed more fluid than last year.

I agree with the statements about the "Flip tackles". I'm hoping their more of a rarity...than the norm. Pretty pleased though with what we're seeing.

# 58 SteelerSpartan @ 05/15/08 03:20 AM

I don't know.....Im happy but Im not

Its definitely better then 08 but its still not in 2k5's league and certainly cant even begin to touch a Euphoria system.

I just hope all the damm "highlight hits" are toned down.....people who try and tackle that way in real life usually are riding the pine pony.

And nothing from FWP

Still holding out hope though

# 59 Sef0r @ 05/15/08 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BezO


	I saw exactly what the rep was referring to regarding momentum of the "victim". When the ball carrier had momentum, the tackle moved forward. When the tackler had the advantage, the tackle went backward.

This was in last year and the year before that.
None of this is new.
You must be refering to the specifics situations as follows:

@00.21 second mark a RB gets tackled and looks to fall forward for extra yards (last year).
@00.23 second mark the LB knocks runner on his a$$ (last year).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltron


	The explanation offered for how this is a new animation system doesn't really sell me on the fact that it is truly a new system. If anything it states that motion captured animations are still present, but they are 'physics informed' -- whatever that actually means. For my money, it sounds as if the motion capture animation code was simply optimized to be faster and do away with some of the delay. The article also didn't really delve into how suction tackling figures into the gameplay mechanic other than stating it occurred via stalling out one player's momentum while a canned tackling animation was being searched for. ..****nning backs like Barry Sanders simply couldn't run they they could in real life because the tackling animations almost always started to take over when they were within 3 yards of any defender.

Look at 00.37 second mark where LT is about to get tackled. If you have a way to watch frame by frame have a look at how LT goes from looking like he is going to run full speed to the outside before an animation takes over roughly 2 yards before the defender tackles him. That is what I like to call a "pre-determined tackle animation/interaction".

Lets be honest here, you can almost tell the outcome (i.e. the animation to be played) of a tackle/interaction before it happens. I've played Madden 2008 a lot and it didn't take me long playing the game to know what was going to happen to my RB almost everytime I ran with the ball and a defender was close by.

Why do they even bother telling us this crap? Its new? No it is NOT.
If they really didn't care about the hardcore sim gamers (who are in the minority) they would not be going into depth on most of this stuff. They know their game will sell on name alone. Yet the last few years have been spent on telling people very specific things that are suppose to make "SIM" fans love the game.

Message to Tiburon. Fire your marketing people and your financial controller. Get EA to loosen the purse strings so you can do what I am sure you've always wanted to do...make a new engine, not revamp the same crappy animation system thats been around since 2002 (Madden PS2). PS: I am impressed with what you have done with the graphics this year.

NB: Please don't attack SteelerSpartan for his comments, I can understand what he is talking about with the 2k5 game. But SteelerSpartan, you realise that they had the same animation system. Motion captured interactions. Madden 2008 showed it could do similar break out animations to 2k5 aswell. Hell, even all pro 2k8 had the same system so really neither developer has gone away from what they know..."what they are comfortable with"

Disclaimer:
* Not a 2k Fanboy
* Not an EA *****
* A realist
* Loves NFL

# 60 WDOgF0reL1fe @ 05/15/08 04:05 AM

Looked good. But what about at 55 seconds? That kinda looked like an explosion animation...

Doesnt matter, im still gonna buy it!

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