Madden 09 News Post

Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

11:17 PM - May 14, 2008 by beau21

EA Sports have updated their Madden NFL 09 blog with tackling engine details and a video clip.

Quote:


	"One of our primary pet-peeves in Madden NFL has been in the responsiveness of tackling. We wanted to feel like as a ballcarrier or defender you are always in more control. The feeling of delay before a tackle started really took away from responsiveness. Also the "suction" you get when being pulled into tackles, well, sucks. We found that the cause of the delay was searching through our 300 and some odd tackles for one that "matched" the current scenario as close as we can, and while this may only take 1/10th to 1/4th of second, I found that delay un-acceptable. So we invented a whole new way to tackle this year."

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Member Comments

# 81 BrianFifaFan @ 05/15/08 10:20 AM

I will give props to the animations, they are much better and do have that NFL-level sense of violence to them. But I'd trade 90% of them for good fundimental form tackles in the flow of a realistic defensive scheme. But I'll try to make some peace. We really haven't seen much in the way of gameplay to give context to all of this. Just a couple of vids off of at best BETA builds. There is a lot of good. Maybe they'll have everything flow faster and more naturally. Offense and Defense. Maybe they got good feedback on tuning that made them decide to keep tweaking. Hoping.....

# 82 roadman @ 05/15/08 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeler99


	Clearly every one of us on this forum have stated time and time again that the gameplay glitches should be the #1 priority to be fixed. If they have in fact eliminated the vast array of glitches that made 08' the horrible game it is, then yes, I would say in-game saves and accelerated clock would be more important to me than anything I see in that video. As I stated in my above post I do not see any dramatic difference between that video and a video of 08, which is why I made my statement. If the video had shown dramatic improvements such as accurate gang-tackling, etc, then my opinion might differ. As many of the adult gamers have stated previously, IN-GAME SAVES is a significant option that makes the game much more playable because most of us don't have the time available to play complete one hour games at one setting (time required for accurately game) . The ability to play one quarter or one half at a time, or just being able to stop when an issue arises is a huge option for me and would definitely make for a much greater improvement than anything I see in that video!

I agree with in-game saves and accelerated clock, and more so, accelerated clock.

However, since EA has been putting on the marketing blitz for this years version, people from here want better OL/DL interaction, better pocket formation, etc........

By the time EA is putting on the marketing blitz, it's probably too late to incorporate those suggestions. The game is probably at 80% build or higher at that point.

Last year at OS, at EA marketing blitz time, people around here were suggesting better presentation and get rid of radio guy. This was more important to the users last year. They upped the ante in presentation this year and brought back the announcer booth.

My point is, this might be too little too late regarding OL/DL interaction and QB pocket for this upcoming title, but now is the time to let EA know about this for next year.

I think EA invites some reps from internet sites prior to the release of the game and looks for suggestions for next season's game.

# 83 LBzrule @ 05/15/08 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltron


	I'm happy to hear that the runner should be able to break tackles easier and it looks like jukes can be executed from a shorter distance too. Those are good things but I'll remain skeptical about this until I actually try it for myself. I feel as if this article is a subtle or not so subtle attempt to undermine Backbreaker's newly touted ragdoll animations. While that game won't be a true competitor to EA, it does seem like an EA practice to preempt any competition in their sector which may be burgeoning. The explanation offered for how this is a new animation system doesn't really sell me on the fact that it is truly a new system. If anything it states that motion captured animations are still present, but they are 'physics informed' -- whatever that actually means. For my money, it sounds as if the motion capture animation code was simply optimized to be faster and do away with some of the delay. The article also didn't really delve into how suction tackling figures into the gameplay mechanic other than stating it occurred via stalling out one player's momentum while a canned tackling animation was being searched for. The fact of the matter is there still appears to be no gang tackling in the sense that other players can "add-on" to the tackling animation and change or shift the momentum of the pile and the runner. Until that update occurs, we will have to be satisfied with optimizations of their current mechanic. Which realistically, that's all I'm expecting after reading this article. In reference to suction blocking, I'm also hoping that will be gone but the article doesn't really get specific about it. From the videos which are out, the pass blocking and the pocket formation look very similar to previous versions and the interactions between the dline and the oline still appear to be very stagnant and Tecmo Bowl like. In other words, I'm not getting my hopes up too high about improvements here. And I still feel as if this game will never really come close to replicating X's and O's football until they allow defenders to take on more than one blocker. You can pretty much throw out most real life defensive fronts until this change is present in the game. All in all, it's nice to see the game becoming more responsive because that was one of my main gripes over the years. Running backs like Barry Sanders simply couldn't run they they could in real life because the tackling animations almost always started to take over when they were within 3 yards of any defender.

I agree with this. There is no add on tackling, which is gonna be a problem IMO with the way the backs break out of tackles, but I'm just not in the mood to take these things to task anymore. And I think you are correct there is nothing innocent here in their mentioning of ragdoll ect., it was a jab. That's what people are asking for and that's what people on boards are expecting to be the next big thing and EA does not have it in their game, so they come out and say mehhh, "we've done something better than that." And I'll say this right now, I know for a fact there will be nano blitzes.

# 84 LBzrule @ 05/15/08 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rashad19


	. Simply put this game needs a NEW engine altogether!!

And this will never happen. What you call engine in this statement game developers call a Library. When sports game developers start up they create a library that houses ALL of their games. This is why it is easy for them to move people off one game and work on another one. While they have to code for a different game, they are still coding within the same library. That's why EA was able to get this guy. The Library/Engine is the same engine in every game, it's just a different sport. They are not going to get a new library for one game under their umbrella. It would have to be for all of them. So the only thing you and I can hope for is that the current library is flexible enough for the desired changes that we want to see.

# 85 BrianFifaFan @ 05/15/08 10:44 AM

I just re-read the blog now that I'm more awake and started thinking. They are using the same animation system as Fifa08 and NBAStreet. As well as it seems the collison detection physics system from Fifa. I don't know how many of you guys have played Fifa, if you haven't you'll be pleased. The tackling engine is awesome. Depending on how you hit them it really does vary the animations. I've seen guys tumble end over end, sideways and face first. There are really a ton of different ways that animate over the course of a match. And it isn't always just you and the defender. It's other players interacting around the direct action, too. It feels more organic, less "canned." Can't really explain it. Of course there are the same basic 1 on 1 scenarios vs. the gang interaction of football. But I will say that it is cool to see different EA studios sharing tech that advances the quality of EA titles. I am waiting until late June when we get to see the final build. But I will say that Tiburon has added a BIG addition with this new toy!

# 86 BezO @ 05/15/08 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sef0r


	This was in last year and the year before that. None of this is new. You must be refering to the specifics situations as follows: @00.21 second mark a RB gets tackled and looks to fall forward for extra yards (last year). @00.23 second mark the LB knocks runner on his a$$ (last year).

Yeah, but there were plenty of times the momentum of a tackle would be off in '08. A ball carrier would appear to have the momentum advantage but still get stopped in his tracks. In this vid at least, all the momentum in the tackles seemed right. Tackles seemed to end the way momentum dictated.

The blog is still puzzling though. He mentions solving the "explosion" problem, but didn't show any gang tackles. A couple of times the perfect situation was unfolding to show off their solution, and instead they cut the scene. AND I saw at least one explosion. I think EA's definition of solved is a bit different than most dictionaries.

I'd like to see blocking & gang tackling blogs.

# 87 Goffs @ 05/15/08 10:45 AM

meh trailers, pics wont sway me...though this does look good im just going to wait for impressions from you guys

# 88 RGiles36 @ 05/15/08 10:56 AM

No offense to anyone, but a lot of you guys are brutal lol.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with having high expectations. But, did you really, in your heart of hearts, expect a 180 degree turn from Madden 08? What I expected to see is improvment and that's what I see in this video.

It's amazing that some of you are in a uproar about this not being a whole new engine. Honestly, what did you expect? Would it be nice to have an entire new physics engine? Of course it would! But it's impractical to think it would happen with Madden 2009. After all, isn't Madden 2008 a revamped engine from the 2006 & 2007 editions? I'm not certain, but that's been my understanding. If that is the case, then I would not expect them abandon the engine after one year's use.

I'm not saying to dumb down expectations of what a next gen football game should be. I have expectations of my own, believe me and there is still LOTS of room for improvment. But after Madden '06, '07, and '08, again, what did you really expect.

On another note, I know I'll catch flack for this, but I'm not all that impressed with Euphoria. Yes, I have GTA IV, and have seen the Backbreaker vid diaries. But, it's not anything that you don't get used to. I mean, it's nice when you get hit by a train or freefall from a building. But other than that, I hardly notice it. Again, would it be nice to have Euphoria? Of course! But I don't think it's everything that everyone makes it out to be. Give me a healthy variety of animations a la NFL2K5 and I'm good.

# 89 jfsolo @ 05/15/08 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Briankingsfan


	I am happy that they've brought in a guy who worked with Fia and Homecourt. Now I don't know if he worked with the guys on Fifa08, but if he did, that is the best animated EA Sports title to date. And I can see the differences that the new animation system has made. Now I gotta agree with the guys who are rightly bringing up where it is still the same tackling AI with a animation upgrade. Since they've made it know that they have given up trying to implement In-game saves to tune instead, they really need to optimize the tackling/defensive pursuit AI. The fundimental problem is that it's too many 1 on 1 scenarios where the defenders have to get in line to take their turn at the ball carrier. They have to get it where 5 guys can all converge at the same point of attack at the same time. On the vid I actually saw where there were guys who had converged in the area in a realistic looking way. But they have to stand around or seem distracted by their offensive counterparts that are nearby. They are supposed to ALL go get the ball carrier. But it seems they can't. Of course Tiburon finally figured out how to get 2 man tackles right last year. (won't go there...) I think at my "sim" anal heart, this is the kind of approach that Madden takes that just erks me. Football is a team sport, not a glorified set of 1 on 1's. Most decent power runners are going to win those battles. OK they seem to have gotten it where a runner can break those tackles now. But it just amplifies how bad Madden's team defensive AI is. Things like the fact that a safety comes all the way over to get in the conga line on a breakaway run instead of heading on an angle for the pylon just looks terrible and "high school." And that you can easily break the pocket because the DL can't get out of the suction block and seems to only be able to focus on the battle with the OL. He's always supposed to be in pursuit of the ball and has to read and react. Same thing with LB's and safeties. This is why they made play action. To confuse those reads. Otherwise the D will have a natural advantage. There's just so much of Madden that is flawed. Down and distance don't matter. Fundimental coaching and football strategy don't. They have jukes to make every player into another Barry Sanders. And WWE-style hit sticks. You don't need all of that if you get the basics right. With proper blocking you can have the time for a decent receiver to get open. And with proper defensive AI you don't need every play to be a Ray Lewis highlight film. Please, I don't want everything now. Just use the time remaining to figure out how to get those guys from 2 yards away to where they need to be at the point of attack, and I'll be happy. And yes I know that they can't truly gang tackle yet..... But get it as close to "real" as possible.

Great Post.

This is the thing that I have always felt about the basketball video games. The A.I. "understood" and played the game in a manner that was equivalent to a 10 or 11 year old just learning the rudimentary aspects of the game. The high level strategy and tactics that you would see in college or the pros weren't present. This past year I felt that NBA 2k8 and CHoops 2k8 made a quantum leap in the way the A.I. played the game, playing more like an average high school team, although of course it could still get much, much better.

The football game's are still at the Pop Warner level as far as A.I. is concerned, and maybe that is intentional so as not to alienate the casual fan. This is what the higher difficulty levels should be about, advanced football strategy by the A.I., and not boosted strength and speed ratings. They're slowly(much too slowly for a lot of people here) getting the animation and collision detection issues ironed out, but A.I. still is lagging behind.

We'll see if the Madden I.Q. feature gives us any positive improvements in terms of how the A.I. plays.

# 90 BrianFifaFan @ 05/15/08 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	And this will never happen. What you call engine in this statement game developers call a Library. When sports game developers start up they create a library that houses ALL of their games. This is why it is easy for them to move people off one game and work on another one. While they have to code for a different game, they are still coding within the same library. That's why EA was able to get this guy. The Library/Engine is the same engine in every game, it's just a different sport. They are not going to get a new library for one game under their umbrella. It would have to be for all of them. So the only thing you and I can hope for is that the current library is flexible enough for the desired changes that we want to see.

I see what you're saying regarding what he said, but I think he was referring more to the underlying AI governing gameplay vs. the middleware. Middleware is a part of the general library that each team shares. And can be manipulated easily by anyone off any team. It's the guys who write the code for each specific game that need new toys. The underlying AI for Madden/NCAA is what's broken in many of our opinions. The coding that governs OL/DL interaction and responsibility needs re-written. It's old,old code.

And that brings up a question as to whether or not it is fixable. Is the code able to be re-written as part of the core gameplay AI? Does the basic engine allow for specific OL/DL coding or is it just a variation of the same general rules that all players share? It seems many times that players aren't really all that different in their actions, they just have different ratings that don't allow them to do things well. That works well for "skilled" players, but not Lineman. They play the game totally differently. And you can't just cover what they do with captured animations. They have to run totally different AI routines. Really an LB has to have his own set as well as DB's. The reason that we never get a really authentic looking game is that they don't have a deep decision engine for the various positions. Now that EACA is sharing tech, how about the 35-point decision engine form Fifa? Maybe it can be cut and pasted, maybe not. But there are games in EA's own portfolio that are making great strides in "smartening" up their players.

# 91 spankdatazz22 @ 05/15/08 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	And this will never happen. What you call engine in this statement game developers call a Library. When sports game developers start up they create a library that houses ALL of their games. This is why it is easy for them to move people off one game and work on another one. While they have to code for a different game, they are still coding within the same library. That's why EA was able to get this guy. The Library/Engine is the same engine in every game, it's just a different sport. They are not going to get a new library for one game under their umbrella. It would have to be for all of them. So the only thing you and I can hope for is that the current library is flexible enough for the desired changes that we want to see.

Very good points

# 92 ewto16 @ 05/15/08 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ODogg


	Just curious...how is no suction tackling, faster and more varied animation collisions and the ability to have multiple ways of breaking tackles no difference?

I think his point is that he doesn't see any of that stuff in the video. Personally, I don't either. I see the same exact tackle/juke/missed tackle animations that I've seen for the last 8 years. I still don't see gang tackles. I still see defenders getting blown out of the play. I still see defenders just stopping as soon as the animation declares it is a tackle instead of following through on the play.

Really, it is the same thing we hear every single year. I just don't see the difference.

# 93 TurboTitan @ 05/15/08 11:33 AM

Its a bit suprising how easily some people are swayed or impressed. That is exactly why EA has started advertising so early this year. Considering their track record on the 360/PS3, there is NOWAY I am getting my hopes up or commiting to buying this thing. Its kinda like "tackling looks a bit better..... Im buying it!!!" Did we forget about all the bugs/glitches that infested 08? One thing that has been missing from Madden forever animation-wise, that I think there is no excuse for, is a tripping/stumbling animation. How many times in a game do you almost see a LB get juked, but he sticks out his hand and barely is able to trip the runner up......or a back is going around the edge and just loses his footing and stumbles. it happens almost every play, but you never see it "in the game".

# 94 NYG_Meth @ 05/15/08 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltron


	I feel as if this article is a subtle or not so subtle attempt to undermine Backbreaker's newly touted ragdoll animations. While that game won't be a true competitor to EA, it does seem like an EA practice to preempt any competition in their sector which may be burgeoning.

Backbreaker uses NaturalMotion, NOT ragdoll physics.

# 95 Deltron @ 05/15/08 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYG_Meth


	Backbreaker uses NaturalMotion, NOT ragdoll physics.

Probably a semantics debate.

The definition from the article appears to align with what I've seen of Backbreaker:

"Ragdoll: When physics are used to take over posing a 3D character, usually with a system that behaves like a crash test dummy, or a dummy with springs attached called "Powered Ragdoll".

# 96 NYG_Meth @ 05/15/08 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltron


	Probably a semantics debate. The definition from the article appears to align with what I've seen of Backbreaker: "Ragdoll: When physics are used to take over posing a 3D character, usually with a system that behaves like a crash test dummy, or a dummy with springs attached called "Powered Ragdoll".

Trust me, there's a big difference.

# 97 Deltron @ 05/15/08 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	I agree with this. There is no add on tackling, which is gonna be a problem IMO with the way the backs break out of tackles, but I'm just not in the mood to take these things to task anymore.

That's a great point. Without add on tackling more freedom in the running game and broken tackles could be tough to stop. Hopefully they at least do away with the falling down animation defenders tended to have when they come into contact with a tackling animation taking place that they are not a part of.

# 98 Deltron @ 05/15/08 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYG_Meth


	Trust me, there's a big difference.

Could you explain?

I don't really expect an EA blog to come out and say NaturalMotion but the way they went about taking a jab at newer physics systems in football games is apparent to me at least.

# 99 Rashad19 @ 05/15/08 12:02 PM

Quote:


	I see what you're saying regarding what he said, but I think he was referring more to the underlying AI governing gameplay vs. the middleware. Middleware is a part of the general library that each team shares. And can be manipulated easily by anyone off any team. It's the guys who write the code for each specific game that need new toys. The underlying AI for Madden/NCAA is what's broken in many of our opinions. The coding that governs OL/DL interaction and responsibility needs re-written. It's old,old code. And that brings up a question as to whether or not it is fixable. Is the code able to be re-written as part of the core gameplay AI? Does the basic engine allow for specific OL/DL coding or is it just a variation of the same general rules that all players share? It seems many times that players aren't really all that different in their actions, they just have different ratings that don't allow them to do things well. That works well for "skilled" players, but not Lineman. They play the game totally differently. And you can't just cover what they do with captured animations. They have to run totally different AI routines. Really an LB has to have his own set as well as DB's. The reason that we never get a really authentic looking game is that they don't have a deep decision engine for the various positions. Now that EACA is sharing tech, how about the 35-point decision engine form Fifa? Maybe it can be cut and pasted, maybe not. But there are games in EA's own portfolio that are making great strides in "smartening" up their players.

This is exactly what I meant Briankingsfan!! Why applaud EA for submitting a blog that barely scratches the surface on truly improving gameplay. After reading these new feature blogs and seeing them in action in teaser films we should be chomping at the bit to get our hands on the game. Why? Because they are showing us ground breaking and new innovative features that we have not experienced before. If they can't reach that level atleast give us so many new animations that it appears to be a new game even if the engine is the same. Right now the gameplay is stale!! If they would have shown LT hit the hole get tripped up by a diving defender and go into an animation where he put his third leg down(his arm) and continue to fight to regain his balance all while diving forward to reach the first down marker this board would have gone wild!!

My entire point here is bring a new freshness to the game and not the same old animations we have been seeing for the last few years. Go in create a ton of new animations if your not going to change the physics engine and re-program the players to behave according to the responsibilities of thier positions!!! Is that so hard?

# 100 BrianFifaFan @ 05/15/08 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rashad19


	This is exactly what I meant Briankingsfan!! Why applaud EA for submitting a blog that barely scratches the surface on truly improving gameplay. After reading these new feature blogs and seeing them in action in teaser films we should be chomping at the bit to get our hands on the game. Why? Because they are showing us ground breaking and new innovative features that we have not experienced before. If they can't reach that level atleast give us so many new animations that it appears to be a new game even if the engine is the same. Right now the gameplay is stale!! If they would have shown LT hit the hole get tripped up by a diving defender and go into an animation where he put his third leg down(his arm) and continue to fight to regain his balance all while diving forward to reach the first down marker this board would have gone wild!!My entire point here is bring a new freshness to the game and not the same old animations we have been seeing for the last few years. Go in create a ton of new animations if your not going to change the physics engine and re-program the players to behave according to the responsibilities of thier positions!!! Is that so hard?

I like that! And while he's fighting forward have another defender come in to finish the tackle or, at least have all the guys on that side of the field be in bound to crack his skull. Even if the engine won't support the gang tackle. I have seen some promise in the vid but it still seems that they can't into situations like that. The other players don't seem involved enough in the overall concept, be it offense or defense. They are in their own little world until too late. It's like the cornerback who comes in to throw himself on the pile after the plays dead.

I was a SS, so I like to crack on Sissybacks!

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