NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable - Operation Sports

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NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

Submitted on: 09/25/2010 by

1. Best thing in the demo?

Christian McLeod - Kevin Durant's intro movie. While watching this all I could think was, "Why can't Elite actually look like this?" Durant is one of my favorite young talents, so it was nice to see him get a chance to showcase his virtual skills as the game begins.

Steve Bartlett - I'm thinking the same as Christian here. The intro movie with Durant throwing one down is sick. I would have to say that the J. Cole official theme song to NBA Elite is nice, too. I was actually having a good time shooting jumpers in the practice gym while listening to it.

2. Biggest Disappointment?

Christian McLeod - Everything else. Honestly, the last time I was this disappointed in a basketball game was after I played NBA Live 07 for the first time on Xbox 360. I absolutely loved NBA Live 10, and I was extremely excited when I heard about the new physics additions and control scheme. l figured that the solid core of Live 10 would have been kept intact, and these new elements would have been added to that foundation. Boy was I wrong. The controls don't work, the physics are terrible, the graphics are nothing special, and even the ESPN presentation looks to be hastily thrown in.

Steve Bartlett - J. Cole delivers some truth in the chorus of his theme song: "We ain’t on but we try, now holla back and reply." NBA Live is gone. As sim ballers, I think we're all disappointed. There are some remnants of Live left in this NBA Elite title, but I was feeling NBA Live last year. It's interesting to me how EA Sports can put out some quality arcade basketball titles in NBA Street Homecourt and NBA Jam, and then throw up a brick with this title.

3. The gameplay is _______ (fill in the blank).

Christian McLeod - Frustrating. Who thought it would be a good idea to change the default pass button to the right trigger? What's even worse is that there seems to be an extreme amount of lag between when you pull the trigger and when your player actually passes the ball. Dribbling and taking jumpers feels good, but everything else feels like I'm playing a basketball game for the original PlayStation. I had to force myself to play this demo for this article -- even with this in mind I found myself shutting the demo off three or four times in utter disappointment. The gameplay is that bad.

Steve Bartlett - Awkward. Disappointing. Lacking signature style and personality. I do like the creativity behind the controls. Shooting feels nice and fluid on the right stick. I just don't think the rest of the controls make much sense for a basketball title. This title plays into an isolation one-on-one style of game. The teams are not acting in concert out there. The spacing is off. Should I go on?

4. Any other things catch your eye?

Christian McLeod - I really like the idea of the Become Legendary modes, specifically the matchups portion where you need to shut down an opponent. Unfortunately, the demo plays so terrible on the court that I wouldn't even consider investing time into this mode unless I was a complete masochist. Also, defense is downright impossible to play against the CPU. Every attempt I had to man up against my opponent led to the game's clunky physics engine forcing me to overcommit -- or the laggy button commands would cost me a chance at a block.

Steve Bartlett - The Become Legendary mode is straight out of the NBA Street Homecourt campaign mode mixed with a bit of 2K My Player. The hip-hop instrumentals, the presentation and graphics, all of it is done with a dramatic theme. A journey from the streets to the bright lights. It's cool.

5. Overall is Elite's stock up or down?

Christian McLeod - Neither, the stock has completely crashed. If this demo is any indication of the final product, I have a hard time believing the title will garner enough sales to stay alive for NBA Elite 12. Based on the demo, this is quite possibly the worst basketball game I have played this generation. Here's hoping, as a fan of EA hoops, that drastic changes are found in the final build of this game.

Steve Bartlett - The Elite stock is crashing fast. EA's marketing team is the only reason why this game will sell.

NBA Elite 11 Videos

Member Comments

# 101 Fngb3 @ 09/26/10 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiffyjustus


	I want a game where someone with superior basketball knowledge will generally beat a 12yo kid who plays games 24/7 and is a dynamo on the sticks. Yes, I admit having the ball in the right hand at the right time is important bball knowledge. I am looking bigger picture I suppose... finding the open shooter, knowing when to run a fast break or when to slow it down, running a play and reacting to what the defense gives you. With all this micro control I just see myself getting so frustrated with the game just trying to bring the ball up the court, let alone running a play.

Sure sure I'm with ya there 100%. I guess I would say to that that each of those things you mentioned could also be considered micro managed aspects and that the bigger picture is the interaction of all of them... That's a broad and vague enough statement that I think I'm safe from you disagreeing with me on that hahah.
I guess I mean, yes, agreed, all those things you said are just as important but that protecting the ball should just be added to your list as one of those things that's really actually part of the bigger picture, just like finding open guys, etc.

# 102 Kaanyr Vhok @ 09/26/10 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fngb3


	If I'm on the right wing and get passed, or level with my defender, and move the left stick up and left towards the hoop, and my defender is on my left hip, I don't want the ball in my left hand. I want it in my right. Now, this could be context sensitive, which it probably is in 2K, but I'm totally down with the responsability of putting the ball in the safest place (in my players right hand, with his body between the defender and the ball). If I'm playing against someone too lazy to do that, they should pay. This is exactly the kind of thing I like about the controls.

Ive had Rondo ripped when I was just bringing the ball up facing the defender. It didnt matter what hand it was in. And it shouldn�t because this isn�t something you cant accomplish in one year or maybe even 10. Basketball players protect the dribble with very intuitive, and subtle skills that you cant possibly imitate with a controller unless you cheapen it to something like Madden�s protect the ball function. I have another idea that might be more complex but still nothing like real life and even then on ball steals on a PG should be rare when you are just bringing it up one on one.

Its stuff like that, that cheapens the team game. If the PG has to do through the leg and around the back dribbles to protect the ball at risk of it getting stolen how are you going to run an offense without something that looks like an And1 game? That was one of the main beefs with 2k10 online was that I couldn�t play a slow paced game and run plays because in increased the risk of on ball steals.

# 103 Fngb3 @ 09/26/10 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drss


	No surprises in this roundtable: extreme hate and bias. When someone whines about RT/R2 for passing, I know the person never gave it a chance in the first place (even if the person thought he did; he didn't). It's basically "it sucks because they didn't do it in a way I am used to". Basically, Skate sucks because it aint like Tony Hawk. That's bull. RT makes sense in the context of the right stick control scheme they have. Yet this blogger here insist that it is objectively stupid, because he is subjectively more used to the traditional controls. Someone THAT stubborn about the traditional control schemes is the WORST judge of a game that's trying something different with the control schemes. I wouldnt ask a Tony Hawk hardcore fan to judge Skate 1's demo either. Times like these shows OS's weakness. It is a very specific site for a very specific audience.

I dunno I feel like we've been pretty good on this thread. Most people are being pretty civil.

and to cmehustle, we haven't heard from rEAnimator for hours. Let's assume he had to go to bed or something. I hope he comes back I feel like we've had some solid content for EA to chew on...

# 104 btrapp @ 09/26/10 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fngb3


	It's easier to stay the same. Not to get all dramatic but it's true in business, and society and everywhere else. Familiar is easier. New is scary. I think the change of the name is being undervalued. We have been told from the very start that all of this is a reboot. If we look at reasoning you really have to be honest and say, real-time physics is eventually going to be a must in sports games. EAs been working hard to keep up but doing it with a system that at it's very core couldn't compete. At some point they needed to bite the bullet and start over and they gave us ample warning of that. I've heard people on youtube say "why did they release this demo? they could have gotten more people to buy it if they hadn't." Really? And if you got blind sided buy this game AFTER you dropped $60 on it you'd be happier? Listen, these people aren't stupid, despite what so many are saying. They knew they were starting over, and that it was going to be ugly. Much respect to them for pullin the trigger and doing it, AND not suckering us into it. Thank you for this demo EA. I'm not gonna buy your game this year, but it's nothing personal. You can bet that I'll be followin, and a few years from now I'll be back because you guys were stand up enough to tell it like it is. Interesting side note: In 3, maybe 4 years, when 2K has to make the inevitable leap to real-time physics, who do you think is gonna be ahead then??

2k, probably. They seem to be good at introducing new concepts without alienating their fan base.

# 105 Fngb3 @ 09/26/10 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaanyr Vhok


	If the PG has to do through the leg and around the back dribbles to protect the ball at risk of it getting stolen how are you going to run an offense without something that looks like an And1 game? That was one of the main beefs with 2k10 online was that I couldn’t play a slow paced game and run plays because in increased the risk of on ball steals.

I hear that. One of my next posts I said pretty much the same thing. It's ridiculous to have to sit at the top of the arc and dribble like a madman just to protect the ball. That's tiring AND unrealistic. But, that said, I still don't have a problem with the act of properly protecting the ball being under our control. In the NBA, those savvy vets just turn their bodies and put the ball out of reach. That's a pretty simple command to add.

Heck, we have a post up button, maybe that works fine for protecting the ball....

# 106 StankonYa @ 09/26/10 01:03 AM

I also would like to say that i buy live and 2k every year because i always find something the other game does better.

And after all the time i put in on this demo, i will buy this also. but see i'm a guy who likes to be challenged.....and when im playing with the Lakers, i feel like Ray Ray is really challenging me, even more so than Kobe, he's challenging me....my stick skills.
And boy it feels good to bust that A....like when you know you should while Mr. Breem and the guys call the action.

Those are the reasons why i will buy this game this year....... even though when i first played the Elite demo i seriously thought that Ashton Kutcher was going to pop out somewhere like hey " you've been punked" because i felt like i had just been punked.

Devs please patch things up quick and if it's possible bring back the size up animations, more signature stuff.

# 107 Kaanyr Vhok @ 09/26/10 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Truth 101


	I doubt it because every 2 player aniamation and sequenced animation will have to be removed and we know 2k have a lot of them.

You can use two player animations with physics reserved for collisions. They have to stop playing off of an assumed weakness. Who knows what 2k12 could plug into that new collision detection system? Thats the cheap cowardly way out. If EA wants the best basketball game they need to stop looking for the quick fix, quick buy, or panacea technology and appreciate game design for the complex craft that it is. They should assume that 2k12 will be an incredible game with remarkable physics, jaw dropping presentation and still believe they can top it. If they dont have that attitude they need to sit out a year.

# 108 parkinson @ 09/26/10 01:32 AM

New control is no problem to me except subtle issues like delayed icon pass and offball pass to be initiated.

Now I am supporting Devs direction. Literally it gives you "real-time" gameplay and it's amazing to have this kind of experience. I feel much more freedom on offense and defense than ever and at the same time i have a feeling like i have to be careful more to protect the ball and concentrate on an offender more. Very intense gameplay.

I think the main reason the most ppl dislike the game is alot of unrealistic motion and lack of signature(maybe i could be wrong). They get feeling "WTF, this horrible motion. Why they are acting all the same?" at first and start to irritate "WTF, this weird control. I wanted turbo but why is it pass? What? No turbo? LOL" later and conclude "this game is suck and the worst ever made" finally.

Devs've already said they didn't have time to handle motion and signature before the demo came out. Honestly I got a quasi-shock when i played the Demo at first time. But after getting used to new control, I realized by myself what Devs said about new direction in the board before.

It could be said Elite 11 is a kind of experimental work and there are many issues but ppl who play the demo enough must admit there is amazing potential to be leveled up though year after year.

Most people who are a bit conservative wanted a upgraded LIVE 10 with more natural animation and the same control scheme. But unfortunately to them, the dice has been thrown. There is no return. I hope we get more natural motion and signature next year to make them happy.

# 109 StankonYa @ 09/26/10 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fngb3


	I really don't have a problem with needing to be vigilent in guarding the basketball. I think this is exactly the kind of thing we take for granted with 2K. There's nothing wrong with asking the player to make sure the ball stays out of reach of the defender. As you just said, when you relax the ball gets poked away. I do agree that it can be tiresome to have to dribble between your legs constantly, though. Maybe instead there can be a button that simply switches you into a guarded position with your body and non-dribbling hand out and between the ball and the defender. It can be the same button as post up but be context sensitive to the perimeter. I know we can post up anywhere on the floor and thats a good thing but I don't know maybe while out on the perimeter a tap puts you into/out of a guarded position (not all moves should be available to you while you're focusing on guarding the ball afterall), but Holding it down while on the perimeter puts you into the post up. I think it's correct as is to just tap the button when near the paint to post up, and that having to hold it that often could be annoying. But out on the perimeter where you will post up less often, having to hold it down wouldn't be so bad.

Yeah i get what your saying but after a while things get tricky sort of speak and starts to look forced at times ,even when i'm not trying to force the action.

Overall i miss the size up animation from nba live 10 and i think bringing it back here wouldn't be so bad.

# 110 Blak_Baki_Hanma @ 09/26/10 01:55 AM

Ultimate, EA came to Sim Nation with a fantasy game... two, actually.
Shouldn't take much to understand why it's not well received.
Some of the simpler questions are:
1. What was the point of the nba license if there's no player differentiation?
2. Why the deviation from the Live 10 foundation?
3. Why deliver two non-authentic basketball titles in one package?... both games have nba licensing... neither display real-world basketball recreations or scenarios.

I'm not sure what the expected reaction was when Elite is so outlandishly exaggerating the laws of physics and more closely resembles Jams than a simulation. Should anyone be able to hop step from beyond the arc and then take off (from a two-foot gather) from the foul line?

Why are the players weightless? (Regardless of size or position)

Why claim "Total Control"... but remove user input for sprinting?

Why not test for 3pt glitches after 3pointers destroyed Live 10's playability?

Why the buzzword marketing for features that have to be explained but are seemingly never experienced? (Real time physics... haven't seen it in action)

Tv commercial with no product footage? (The message is clear)

I guess it's pretty obvious this year's offering may not be salvageable... but when there was documentation posted after the release of Live 10 that "simulation elements would be addressed in the next installment" (which is Elite)... and then you present this game with the fewest sim elements of this generation, what should the community's reaction be?

Also, rEAnim mentioned that he played the game and noticed some rough edges... can you give us some details on the rough edges you noticed? I would like to know what you specifically see that needs improvment.

Thanks.

# 111 Boilerbuzz @ 09/26/10 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Truth 101


	Two player animations have to play back the same way they are recorded.

That is not true. But why is this even a discussion? Why don't you guys stay on topic and off of 2K?

# 112 Boilerbuzz @ 09/26/10 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Truth 101


	Currently, most 3D animation is canned. It is produced manually and then played back in essentially fixed form. As a consequence, current animation assets are not fully interactive; thus putting major limitations on realism, believability and gameplay. For example, despite the availability of high-quality motion capture data, it is not possible to create believable and coherent American football tackles as the infinite number of possible character interactions cannot be predicted or produced beforehand. Done with it.

Thank you. That's all I ask.

# 113 Kaanyr Vhok @ 09/26/10 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Truth 101


	I have no problem with this, its called protecting the ball with your body like dribbling the ball in your right hand with the left side of your body facing your defender. Of course if you do dribble moves in the face of your defender his chances of stealing the ball is higher.

You can still get the ball stolen which is also true in real life. The problem is how often it happens, the player it happens to, when it happens, and the reach foul ratio.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Truth 101


	Two player animations have to play back the same way they are recorded.

They don't have to be triggered at the same time as the collision and you can shorten the break in the animation which 2k11 already did. They also removed a bunch too. All animations are canned its just a matter of how long. You shorten them add more breaks and they are easier to work with. Matter of fact I can tell you right now the 2k11 demo has realtime unmotioncaptured physical interations. They could have advertised it. This is a strawman weakness. Its bad enough to build off your own weakness. Building off an oponents weakness that they already fixed is just

Really I'll take that back. Right now the two-players animations are a strength twisted into a strawman weakness. I'm not going to go into 2k11's strengths. If anyone wants to know why I feel they work they can PM me.

# 114 23 @ 09/26/10 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Truth 101


	Currently, most 3D animation is canned. It is produced manually and then played back in essentially fixed form. As a consequence, current animation assets are not fully interactive; thus putting major limitations on realism, believability and gameplay. For example, despite the availability of high-quality motion capture data, it is not possible to create believable and coherent American football tackles as the infinite number of possible character interactions cannot be predicted or produced beforehand. Done with it.

Agenda.. thats what it is. You're a previously banned user

# 115 Boilerbuzz @ 09/26/10 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 23


	Agenda.. thats what it is. You're a previously banned user

I found it funny how he tried to "talk over" folks, and then drew wild conclusions from his babble. But, I digress.

Sorry. I'm not one to pile on, but I agree that many people are upset with the changes because they felt the decisions were made a vacuum. But, you just don't know. Human emotions are the one thing you can't predict or manage. I know. I have a wife and 4 daughters.

# 116 Jano @ 09/26/10 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fngb3


	I hear that. One of my next posts I said pretty much the same thing. It's ridiculous to have to sit at the top of the arc and dribble like a madman just to protect the ball. That's tiring AND unrealistic. But, that said, I still don't have a problem with the act of properly protecting the ball being under our control. In the NBA, those savvy vets just turn their bodies and put the ball out of reach. That's a pretty simple command to add. Heck, we have a post up button, maybe that works fine for protecting the ball....

A button would be fine but where this game needs the most improvement in is contextual animations. Right now when you dribble the ball is exposed all the time unless you press the post up button.

What needs to happen is players need to respond to the defender by always moving in relation to what he does. The game allowing you to be in control of your dribble is nice but what it also needs is a more expansive protect the ball system.

Not only should we be able to move with the ball exposed but we also should have the option to move quickly with the ball protected to. This will help out on fastbreaks where you need to protect the ball and dribble forward at the same time. As of right now the game only allows you to move quickly with ball exposed for next year the devs need to add more contextual animations for the protect the ball stance too.

# 117 Kaanyr Vhok @ 09/26/10 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Truth 101


	Currently, most 3D animation is canned. It is produced manually and then played back in essentially fixed form. As a consequence, current animation assets are not fully interactive; thus putting major limitations on realism, believability and gameplay. For example, despite the availability of high-quality motion capture data, it is not possible to create believable and coherent American football tackles as the infinite number of possible character interactions cannot be predicted or produced beforehand. Done with it.

I wonder where you got that from
http://www.naturalmotion.com/files/white_paper_dms.pdf

# 118 Jano @ 09/26/10 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boilerbuzz


	That is not true. But why is this even a discussion? Why don't you guys stay on topic and off of 2K?

It's not, it seems like it would? In that however many variations of a certain situation a game has is always how they are going to play out.

So if I'm playing a game and I steal the ball and its a 2P anim steal isn't the animation always going to be the same set of sequences all the time. I'm not sure if I'm talking about the same thing he was but whatever im interested anyway lol!

# 119 Fngb3 @ 09/26/10 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boilerbuzz


	That is not true. But why is this even a discussion? Why don't you guys stay on topic and off of 2K?

Woah now, woooaaah just a second here. 2 man animations is not the exclusive property of 2K. Just because my man is talkin about recorded animations does not mean is talking about 2K and not Elite. This is a comment about the technology of these games... Did he really get banned for that comment? It says he's banned now and that was the last comment he made.

# 120 Jasong7777 @ 09/26/10 11:15 AM

In the end the consumer just wants a NBA game that plays like the NBA. With it being as close to sim as possible. It is like EA forgot to put the NBA in the game. Elite is more like a good pick up game of basketball. Nothing wrong with that. It's just not NBA basketball. Smooth out the gameplay and make the NBA players play like themselves and you got a game. Hopefully it does not take 5 years.

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