NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable - Operation Sports

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NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

Submitted on: 09/25/2010 by

1. Best thing in the demo?

Christian McLeod - Kevin Durant's intro movie. While watching this all I could think was, "Why can't Elite actually look like this?" Durant is one of my favorite young talents, so it was nice to see him get a chance to showcase his virtual skills as the game begins.

Steve Bartlett - I'm thinking the same as Christian here. The intro movie with Durant throwing one down is sick. I would have to say that the J. Cole official theme song to NBA Elite is nice, too. I was actually having a good time shooting jumpers in the practice gym while listening to it.

2. Biggest Disappointment?

Christian McLeod - Everything else. Honestly, the last time I was this disappointed in a basketball game was after I played NBA Live 07 for the first time on Xbox 360. I absolutely loved NBA Live 10, and I was extremely excited when I heard about the new physics additions and control scheme. l figured that the solid core of Live 10 would have been kept intact, and these new elements would have been added to that foundation. Boy was I wrong. The controls don't work, the physics are terrible, the graphics are nothing special, and even the ESPN presentation looks to be hastily thrown in.

Steve Bartlett - J. Cole delivers some truth in the chorus of his theme song: "We ain’t on but we try, now holla back and reply." NBA Live is gone. As sim ballers, I think we're all disappointed. There are some remnants of Live left in this NBA Elite title, but I was feeling NBA Live last year. It's interesting to me how EA Sports can put out some quality arcade basketball titles in NBA Street Homecourt and NBA Jam, and then throw up a brick with this title.

3. The gameplay is _______ (fill in the blank).

Christian McLeod - Frustrating. Who thought it would be a good idea to change the default pass button to the right trigger? What's even worse is that there seems to be an extreme amount of lag between when you pull the trigger and when your player actually passes the ball. Dribbling and taking jumpers feels good, but everything else feels like I'm playing a basketball game for the original PlayStation. I had to force myself to play this demo for this article -- even with this in mind I found myself shutting the demo off three or four times in utter disappointment. The gameplay is that bad.

Steve Bartlett - Awkward. Disappointing. Lacking signature style and personality. I do like the creativity behind the controls. Shooting feels nice and fluid on the right stick. I just don't think the rest of the controls make much sense for a basketball title. This title plays into an isolation one-on-one style of game. The teams are not acting in concert out there. The spacing is off. Should I go on?

4. Any other things catch your eye?

Christian McLeod - I really like the idea of the Become Legendary modes, specifically the matchups portion where you need to shut down an opponent. Unfortunately, the demo plays so terrible on the court that I wouldn't even consider investing time into this mode unless I was a complete masochist. Also, defense is downright impossible to play against the CPU. Every attempt I had to man up against my opponent led to the game's clunky physics engine forcing me to overcommit -- or the laggy button commands would cost me a chance at a block.

Steve Bartlett - The Become Legendary mode is straight out of the NBA Street Homecourt campaign mode mixed with a bit of 2K My Player. The hip-hop instrumentals, the presentation and graphics, all of it is done with a dramatic theme. A journey from the streets to the bright lights. It's cool.

5. Overall is Elite's stock up or down?

Christian McLeod - Neither, the stock has completely crashed. If this demo is any indication of the final product, I have a hard time believing the title will garner enough sales to stay alive for NBA Elite 12. Based on the demo, this is quite possibly the worst basketball game I have played this generation. Here's hoping, as a fan of EA hoops, that drastic changes are found in the final build of this game.

Steve Bartlett - The Elite stock is crashing fast. EA's marketing team is the only reason why this game will sell.

NBA Elite 11 Videos

Member Comments

# 41 Kaanyr Vhok @ 09/25/10 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fngb3


	It's easier to stay the same. Not to get all dramatic but it's true in business, and society and everywhere else. Familiar is easier. New is scary. I think the change of the name is being undervalued. We have been told from the very start that all of this is a reboot. If we look at reasoning you really have to be honest and say, real-time physics is eventually going to be a must in sports games. EAs been working hard to keep up but doing it with a system that at it's very core couldn't compete. At some point they needed to bite the bullet and start over and they gave us ample warning of that. I've heard people on youtube say "why did they release this demo? they could have gotten more people to buy it if they hadn't." Really? And if you got blind sided buy this game AFTER you dropped $60 on it you'd be happier? Listen, these people aren't stupid, despite what so many are saying. They new they were starting over, and that it was going to be ugly. Much respect to them for pullin the trigger and doing it, AND not suckering us into it. Thank you for this demo EA. I'm not gonna buy your game this year, but it's nothing personal. You can bet that I'll be followin, and a few years from now I'll be back because you guys were stand up enough to tell it like it is. Interesting side note: In 3, maybe 4 years, when 2K has to make the inevitable leap to real-time physics, who do you think is gonna be ahead then??

If you call this real time physics you need to fly to Britain and apologize to the devs of Backbreaker. 2k11 updated its collision detection with a system thats similar to Fifa's. The game has much better collision detection than 2k10 and I'm sure there are real time trig calculations going on. Its like a simpler version of what NHL has. They could have marketed that as real time physics too and it would have been no less of an exaggeration.

# 42 poilbrun @ 09/25/10 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rEAnimator


	You know, I hear you and that's something that could easily be patched. But I get the sense that that's not the thing that's going to win over everyone on OS. I'm having a hard time figuring out what the biggest problem people have with the game is. Why are we getting such a sky is falling, doom and gloom, worst sports game ever reaction from people, like in this round table? The specific things people bring up seem fair and accurate, but I can't figure out why the reaction is so bad. And I need to. It's part of my job. I went back and played the game, and there are rough edges, but I just don't see where the extreme negativity is coming from. I don't want to argue or debate it, I want to understand it. That's why I asked what 5v5 dynamics were missing in response to that previous post. I can't think of any.

rEAnimator, thanks for taking the time to come and post in such negative threads, must not be easy.

My opinion on the reasons for this negativity is simple: you gave us a game last year that was very good and on par with the competition and then threw it away to give us what *you* think is better. That's the reason for the level of negativity.

As far as I'm concerned, it's the teamplay that bothers me, especially on defense. It does not feel like the five players are playing as a team, and given the level of control the user has in offense, it feels like there's no control at all in defense.

As far as the offensive controls go, the negative is for me that any player seems to be able to pull all the moves and the fact that the success of shots is dictated by the stick skills of the user rather than the shooting skills of the player.

I don't know how the game compares to the competition, because the 2k11 demo is not available in my country, but given what I have seen from Elite, it's not a buy from me, contrary to last year, when I bought both games, playing 2k10 only is My Player mode.

# 43 rEAnimator @ 09/25/10 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Truth 101


	Signature animations seems to be the biggest issue over here to me.

Before the demo came out I would have agreed for sure, but I haven't heard much about them since.

# 44 Fngb3 @ 09/25/10 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtq


	You assumed that the result, when 2K does make the move to real physics, is going to be as atrocious as EA's offering this year. 2K has a history of listening to their fan-base so much more than EA ever had. Beside, I doubt they would stay idle if they know that the future is going to be where real-time physics is; there is such a thing called being proactive.

Oh no doubt no doubt. The technology won't be as new, for sure. And knowing 2K they won't do it until they're sure they can do it right. I just mean from EAs perspective, being well behind as they were (are), this was their chance to try and really be more polished regarding the next sort of manifestation of basketball sims, than 2K. I just think it's pretty clear that for the next 3 years at least, 2K aint gon have any other bball games climbin up their arse, and it's pretty typical for something to not progress as rapidly without conflict. I wouldn't even blame them for not improving greatly while EAs rebuilding... I'm just excited to see what happens a few years from now, once EA builds around this new core...

# 45 rEAnimator @ 09/25/10 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaanyr Vhok


	If you call this real time physics you need to fly to Britain and apologize to the devs of Backbreaker. 2k11 updated its collision detection with a system thats similar to Fifa's. The game has much better collision detection than 2k10 and I'm sure there are real time trig calculations going on. Its like a simpler version of what NHL has. They could have marketed that as real time physics too and it would have been no less of an exaggeration.

So are you upset about the way it was marketed, or about the game itself?

You seem more upset about the marketing, which I can kind of understand, although I was extremely open about what we were delivering and never claimed anything like backbreaker.

But let's get to the heart of the problem in the game itself.

And thanks for helping out.

# 46 ccoaxum @ 09/25/10 08:25 PM

i totally disagree with yall review but everybody have their own opinion, and every like different things. An the person who said that you can dribble with any body on the game like their a pg, is a lie you can not dribble the ball with your center like a pg, hack he will lose control of the ball and they dribble slower then a pg at that. To make it worse on that comment, EA put a video out on that exaxt situation with Andrew Bynum trying to dribble on the game. smh...this game is clearly not for everyone and they said from way b4 the game came out that this game wasn't going to be for everyone, hack some the ppl on here, not calling names but the ones who went to that event at the beach said it themselves that this game was not going to be for everyone. An just because good bit of ppl(lol which is alot not going to lie) don't like dose not mean the game is not good. If thats the case no game in the world is could because every game have that group ppl who do not like a certain game that another person might like. 2k 11 demo is good but they didn't put enough out, but i did like the gameplay, Elite 11 need to work on certain things but i love it and once i got use to the controls, honestly i'm having alot of fun with it. I'm getting both games but for different reason for each.

# 47 jr2424 @ 09/25/10 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rEAnimator


	You know, I hear you and that's something that could easily be patched. But I get the sense that that's not the thing that's going to win over everyone on OS. I'm having a hard time figuring out what the biggest problem people have with the game is. Why are we getting such a sky is falling, doom and gloom, worst sports game ever reaction from people, like in this round table? The specific things people bring up seem fair and accurate, but I can't figure out why the reaction is so bad. And I need to. It's part of my job. I went back and played the game, and there are rough edges, but I just don't see where the extreme negativity is coming from. I don't want to argue or debate it, I want to understand it. That's why I asked what 5v5 dynamics were missing in response to that previous post. I can't think of any.

With this audience (and I'm part of it) it comes down to the movement and authenticity. I know you stated that this game was to capture a feeling of playing at the "Y" (Sorry, I know I'm not quoting you directly.) and as you know, when it comes to this community, it comes down to every aspect.

The herky-jerky nature of the movement (especially when jumping). I'm big into rebounding, and to me, the demo fails to capture the feeling of boxing someone out and leaping with the fluidity NBA players use to grab a rebound. It comes down to the collision annimations that feel very stiff and almost spastic when collision is made mid-air (I hope I'm not being mean, but I know you said you wanted to hear this, and this is my perspective).

For us (and I hope I'm conveying what the community is saying), it comes down to feeling authentic. NBA players are some of the most athletic in sports, but this game fails to capture that fluidity (I don't have a specific way of explaining fluidity but it's kind of like how the Supreme Court defined pornography, you know it when you see it.) And we don't see it or really feel it. I want to be immersed. That's what video games do for me that no other medium can capture. When I'm playing an NBA game, I want to think I'm controlling Dwyane Wade, LeBron James, Tim Duncan, Kevin Durant, etc. There need to be some difference between how each of these players feel, look, react.

I hope this does not come off as an attack. You have been really great answering the community despite it being very negative. Thank you for listening.

# 48 Fngb3 @ 09/25/10 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rEAnimator


	Why are we getting such a sky is falling, doom and gloom, worst sports game ever reaction from people, like in this round table?

Just want to say you being here makes this thread so much more interesting and important.

I really want to try and help with a level-headed outsiders perspective on the doom and gloom malaise.

I think, first and foremost, this is a result of contrast. If this had gone down in a year in which your competitor didn't have a certain individual on their conver; if this had gone down in a year where your competitor didn't seem to have made solid strides in their own product; if this hadn't come a year after your product seemed to be in as good a position as it had in a decade; if EA hadn't hyped up these new implimentations as "Revolutionary" (and believe me, I understand the need to market, and to put a good face on for things, I'm not saying take out an add in the local paper and remind everyone you weren't really competing for the championship this year anyway. Continuing that T'wolves metaphor, if you hadn't described the hands-on-control and RTP as "mana from heaven"), then I don't think people would be reacting so strongly to the demo.

# 49 rEAnimator @ 09/25/10 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by poilbrun


	My opinion on the reasons for this negativity is simple: you gave us a game last year that was very good and on par with the competition and then threw it away to give us what you think is better. That's the reason for the level of negativity.

OK, this makes a lot of sense to me if it's true.

Unfortunately there's not a whole lot that can be done about it at this point, and it means that extracting objective feedback is going to be extremely difficult.

It does explain why some people are not giving profound reasons for the dislike, and it keeps coming back to the fact that it didn't build off live, or it didn't come from the community.

# 50 rEAnimator @ 09/25/10 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jr2424


	With this audience (and I'm part of it) it comes down to the movement and authenticity. I know you stated that this game was to capture a feeling of playing at the "Y" (Sorry, I know I'm not quoting you directly.) and as you know, when it comes to this community, it comes down to every aspect. The herky-jerky nature of the movement (especially when jumping). I'm big into rebounding, and to me, the demo fails to capture the feeling of boxing someone out and leaping with the fluidity NBA players use to grab a rebound. It comes down to the collision annimations that feel very stiff and almost spastic when collision is made mid-air (I hope I'm not being mean, but I know you said you wanted to hear this, and this is my perspective). For us (and I hope I'm conveying what the community is saying), it comes down to feeling authentic. NBA players are some of the most athletic in sports, but this game fails to capture that fluidity (I don't have a specific way of explaining fluidity but it's kind of like how the Supreme Court defined pornography, you know it when you see it.) And we don't see it or really feel it. I want to be immersed. That's what video games do for me that no other medium can capture. When I'm playing an NBA game, I want to think I'm controlling Dwyane Wade, LeBron James, Tim Duncan, Kevin Durant, etc. There need to be some difference between how each of these players feel, look, react. I hope this does not come off as an attack. You have been really great answering the community despite it being very negative. Thank you for listening.

Thank you very much.

This is one of the better explanation as to why the visual quality and authenticity of the animations matters so much toy ou.

You're basically saying it's causing you to break that suspension of disbelief very quickly when you play the game, and that prevents you from enjoying any other aspect of the game.

I get it.

I think this might be the answer I was looking for.

# 51 dirtypuppet @ 09/25/10 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rEAnimator


	Before the demo came out I would have agreed for sure, but I haven't heard much about them since.

I'd say it's animation quality first and foremost, and after that the lack of contextual animations, and after that, lack of player differentiation through animation (sig style).

# 52 Boilerbuzz @ 09/25/10 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtq


	You assumed that the result, when 2K does make the move to real physics, is going to be as atrocious as EA's offering this year. 2K has a history of listening to their fan-base so much more than EA ever had. Beside, I doubt they would stay idle if they know that the future is going to be where real-time physics is; there is such a thing called being proactive.

He's also assuming 2K doesn't already do what EA is calling RTP...

# 53 jr2424 @ 09/25/10 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rEAnimator


	Thank you very much. This is one of the better explanation as to why the visual quality and authenticity of the animations matters so much toy ou. You're basically saying it's causing you to break that suspension of disbelief very quickly when you play the game, and that prevents you from enjoying any other aspect of the game. I get it. I think this might be the answer I was looking for.

Happy I could help. No matter what people say here, we all want two excellent basketball games. I WANT NBA ELITE TO BE GREAT. The reason: Competition breads innovation. I do give you guys props for trying something new. I think guys here (including me) really saw the jump in authenticity last year and were hoping for it to continue. The harshness of the reaction I think has more to do with disappointment. I know you guys put your heart and soul into this game, so it hurts me to say anything negative toward an endeavor like that. But you will get honesty from these boards (for the most part).

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm rooting for you guys because I want to see my once-beloved basketball franchise get back to what made it really great. Again, thank you for listening.

# 54 dtq @ 09/25/10 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fngb3


	Oh no doubt no doubt. The technology won't be as new, for sure. And knowing 2K they won't do it until they're sure they can do it right. I just mean from EAs perspective, being well behind as they were (are), this was their chance to try and really be more polished regarding the next sort of manifestation of basketball sims, than 2K. I just think it's pretty clear that for the next 3 years at least, 2K aint gon have any other bball games climbin up their arse, and it's pretty typical for something to not progress as rapidly without conflict. I wouldn't even blame them for not improving greatly while EAs rebuilding... I'm just excited to see what happens a few years from now, once EA builds around this new core...

Fair enough. I see your point.

# 55 Live_4real @ 09/25/10 08:47 PM

You can�t forget that this game is not the first one in the Live/Elite franchise

People have burned money on this franchise for years in this generation of consoles, last year they saw a light, and because they felt that this year the game took a step backwards, they feel like the old days

Some are acting like bashing machines, but in fact they care about the game, and all they want is a good product

2 of the biggest issues that I can understand the Sim nation could have with the game are:

- People feel that this game as nothing to do with NBA, they don�t feel LBJ when playing with LBJ, they wan�t NBA and not b-ball

- And the other aspect (that I guess sim ballers are stressing), is the fact that you have to many control over your player offensively, that you almost feel like the play-calling/exploit of missmatches are almost useless, because when playing one on one, you can almost guarantee if you use screens/drible moves with skill, 90% of the times you will be successful

This is a problem that I think Elite will have to figure out in every single game going forward.

How to keep the strategic aspect of basketball as important as is the Stick skill already in this game

PeAcE

# 56 Fngb3 @ 09/25/10 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rEAnimator


	That's why I asked what 5v5 dynamics were missing in response to that previous post. I can't think of any.

I said in an earlier post of mine that I was actually diggin most of the controls in practice mode, but that once it came to 5v5 I did a complete 180 on the game. I've also said in a post of mine that for me, it's not so much jerky animations or warping or half-time shows, or anything like that, that get's me interested in a basketball game. So from my end, signature styles, people looking plasticky, realistic collisions, smooth animations, etc. is not what I look for. Sure, it makes it a tad harder to swallow when those things are all off but for me it comes down to this: Is the way to be succesful in this game to use the strategies that real basketball teams need to use to be succesful?

So this is obviously a majorly huge topic but let's see if I can break this down with brevity.

Offensively:
Ball and player movement is the mechanism real teams use to get open, high percentage shots.
In the instance of super-star players, this is occasionally unecessary because they can produce their own offense.

Defensively:
Defense is always about position.
On Ball defenders are succesful when they keep their man in front of them or at least force them away from the paint. And stay close enough to contest or alter shots.
Off-ball defenders look to be in position to help if the on ball defender gets beat, but close enough to get back to their man if he gets the ball.
Defense is about regression to the mean. And by that I mean, you make the highest amount of shots the other team takes, as difficult as possible. Some will go in, but if a defense is sound, the percentage of succesful conversions from the offensive team is reduce. This is why the Celtics are succesful. They have a system. There are easy looks sometimes, but in the long run, the opposing teams shoot a low FG% against them.

I don't mean to sound condescending like you've never studied basketball before, but these are basic precepts that make teams succesful on both sides of the ball.

The only thing I see in the Elite 11 demo from that small list is: "...the instance of super-star players [producing] their own offense." I don't see any of those other fundamental aspects of basketball.

Defensive rotation and position is something both 2K and EA struggle with. I imagine that is because it's difficult to replicate... Nonetheless, because Elite is starting over, that system is suddenly massively underdeveloped.

# 57 Kaanyr Vhok @ 09/25/10 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rEAnimator


	Before the demo came out I would have agreed for sure, but I haven't heard much about them since.

The CPU AI on offense, the shot blocking, too many steals, the lack of fouls being called, and the animations as a whole specially the dribble and dunk animations.

Its just a lot of little things too like the location of the stance. One easy way to give unprecedented control is to use the range of motion of the trigger for the stance.

I feel like a ham linking my video but I made it because it speaks louder than words. These are the little things that people care about.

On a good note the physics system has wipped out full body clipping.

# 58 ccoaxum @ 09/25/10 08:56 PM

rEAnimator , honestly i like the game and i am going to buy it. But if you can put anything into a patch this is what i recommend, give each player more signature style play(dribbles, movement, shots) like i see u did a lil with the shots but i just notice it with there hands and not as much of the whole style if you knowing what im saying. Another thing is the team play, it does feel at times as if every one on the court is not doing there job or they are not paying any attention to the game.(manily on d-fense of course). graphics can be better but i really do not care because honestly all the people in the game looks like themselves but their skin texture kinda looks like a cartoon style. Other then that for me i love it. So if you can put that in a patch soon around the time of the release of the game, man that will help this game out a whole lot.

# 59 rEAnimator @ 09/25/10 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fngb3


	I said in an earlier post of mine that I was actually diggin most of the controls in practice mode, but that once it came to 5v5 I did a complete 180 on the game. I've also said in a post of mine that for me, it's not so much jerky animations or warping or half-time shows, or anything like that, that get's me interested in a basketball game. So from my end, signature styles, people looking plasticky, realistic collisions, smooth animations, etc. is not what I look for. Sure, it makes it a tad harder to swallow when those things are all off but for me it comes down to this: Is the way to be succesful in this game to use the strategies that real basketball teams need to use to be succesful? So this is obviously a majorly huge topic but let's see if I can break this down with brevity. Offensively: Ball and player movement is the mechanism real teams use to get open, high percentage shots. In the instance of super-star players, this is occasionally unecessary because they can produce their own offense. Defensively: Defense is always about position. On Ball defenders are succesful when they keep their man in front of them or at least force them away from the paint. And stay close enough to contest or alter shots. Off-ball defenders look to be in position to help if the on ball defender gets beat, but close enough to get back to their man if he gets the ball. Defense is about regression to the mean. And by that I mean, you make the highest amount of shots the other team takes, as difficult as possible. Some will go in, but if a defense is sound, the percentage of succesful conversions from the offensive team is reduce. This is why the Celtics are succesful. They have a system. There are easy looks sometimes, but in the long run, the opposing teams shoot a low FG% against them. I don't mean to sound condescending like you've never studied basketball before, but these are basic precepts that make teams succesful on both sides of the ball. What I see in the Elite 11 demo from that small list is: "...the instance of super-star players [producing] their own offense." I don't see movement away from the ball. Defensive rotation and position is something both 2K and EA struggle with. I imagine that is because it's difficult to replicate... Nonetheless, because Elite is starting over, that system is suddenly massively underdeveloped.

OK, like you said nothing new there. I play and watch basketball, I get it.

The part I'm still struggling with is why people don't see these things in Elite when I do.

I'll admit to having not played against the CPU very much this year, but I played many a game against Connor, and the way I'd win or play defense is exactly as you describe.

I'm not saying that in defense of the game or to change anyone's mind, but simply as an observation and explanation of why I'm struggling with the feedback.

Perhaps, as others have stated, the level of control you have and the learning curve, means your first experience with the game is radically less authentic than your first experience with a game that gives you less freedom simply because that game restricts you more to be within the confines of authenticity, whereas Elite allows to to venture far off into Wonderland, but also allows you to play an authentic and rewarding game of basketball.

Unfortunately most people see Wonderland as their first experience.

Another piece of the puzzle perhaps.

# 60 Fngb3 @ 09/25/10 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Live_4real


	You can�t forget that this game is not the first one in the Live/Elite franchise ... - People feel that this game as nothing to do with NBA, they don�t feel LBJ when playing with LBJ, they wan�t NBA and not b-ball

Top part of that; yes it's true, this isn't their first rodeo. I'd venture to guess the knowledge of the game of basketball is alive a well in the minds of the team over at EA. But for all intents and purposes (just as the name implies) things are completely new. And there's just no way to stuff all that they know into a new game in 12 months. I would imagine the pressure to put a game out every year is the reason they put this out at all. That starts at the top in EAs management. If you asked the dev team and they were allowed to be frank with us, I bet they'd say they'd liked to have had another year or maybe even two, to get this game ready for us.

The bottom part; I want to separate two very distinct aspects of what you're talking about here. A sim baller doesn't necessarily need LBJ to look like LBJ or shoot like LBJ. Undeniably, it makes the immersion much greater. But at the heart of things, what a sim baller needs is for whatever avatar on screen representing LBJ, to DO what LBJ can do, and not do what he can't. I don't want to see him shooting better from 3 than Eddie House. I don't care if he's a super star. I don't want to see him ever effectively execute a post move. I want to see the dude pass like he can see the future like Nick Cage from "Next" and just in general be more physically gifted than every other person around him.

I don't need a v-player to look or move like their real life counter part. I just need to say, "OK this is how the real LBJ is succesful, so baring my ability to properly cultivate similar opportunities and execute, I should be succesful that way too."

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