NBA Live Needs the Dream - Operation Sports

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NBA Live Needs the Dream

Submitted on: 02/15/2010 by Steven Bartlett

"Was it all a dream?"

Those were the famous words sung by Faith Evans on the classic Jay-Z album Blueprint 2.

They also happen to be the same words some NBA Live fans are repeating after recently learning that producer Mike Wang is migrating back over to 2K Sports. Obviously, questions remain about the direction of the franchise after the latest news.

While Live fans keep praying for another breakthrough in next year’s release, here are some ideas to ponder.

Footwork

EA Sports runs a lot of their games off similar animation-technology (ANT) engines that are shared amongst their titles. So some of the footwork and momentum issues you see in Madden also exist in Live, but not to the same degree.

Nevertheless, footwork is a critical part of the post game, and Live 10 does not deliver quick, intuitive controls complete with foot pivots, fakes and the leans we all are looking for.

Right around when Live 10 was released, Mike Wang at EA Canada told me his team utilized the FIFA locomotion engine quite a bit when working on the Live 10 footwork. While he said it was very difficult to strike a balance between responsiveness and realistic momentum, he believed Live had achieved this goal.

Here is my issue with using FIFA's locomotion engine for the game of basketball: Soccer is played on enormous playing surface with players covering many yards in longer strides.

So, while you can learn a great deal of footwork by playing soccer and apply it to basketball, it is still a different sport with different athlete skill sets and running styles.

And when I look at Live, the footwork resembles players dribbling a soccer ball on a giant playing field rather than a dribbling a basketball in an NBA arena. I feel like the players are in a constant state of evasiveness instead of protecting the ball while they dribble through traffic and around defenders.

As you play through NBA Live 10, throw an outlet pass and try to turn it up court. You will find that players take a long period of time and space to make their initial turn towards the opposing hoop. These moves should be quick and explosive from start to stop. These issues carry over to the low post.

Why EA Can Succeed

To EA Canada’s credit, the foot-planting technology in the NBA Live engine was improved, with much of the credit going to the development team's ability to recognize the natural footwork issues in the game. EA Canada added animations this year to make the moves tighter and improved the momentum.

Also, Live 10 differentiates players based on their first step, acceleration, top speed in the open court, ability to change directions and ability to stop on a dime.

In theory, this sounds like an amazing approach to bring solid footwork to the game of basketball –- but theories do not always translate into realistic gameplay, especially on the low blocks.

Still, the strategy is in place, EA Canada just has to execute it now.

The Dream

The locomotion issues I stated above affect a lot of the small adjustments in attributes that were added to the game. I feel as though this is one of the main reasons why the post game struggles.

I also find a lack of weight and balance on the blocks in Live 10; the offensive players in the post take big steps -- too big to make any sort of tight, quick pivots down in the post.

Instead of using Hakeem Olajuwon footwork, we are forced to use back downs and baby jump hooks the majority of the time. I feel like there is no inherent sense of methodology going on in the madness of the paint.

Live 10 needs to hit the gym with The Dream himself -- similar to what Kobe did this past summer -- and get the post game down. Sure, getting a guy like Dwight Howard in the motion-capture studio will get you the flashy dunks, but not the fundamentals. And after what the development team did this year, the game still has so much potential to be a great basketball title.

Therefore, motion capturing for bigs, forwards and guards is needed. Get all their footwork into the game to distinguish the different playing styles for each position.

And the great part is that The Dream can instruct motion capturing of athletes for all of these positions -- that is what made him such a wonder to watch.

His unique blend of size, style, agility and elegant grace re-invented and reborn in a basketball video game would help Live take the crown without question.

Follow my OS stories and more on Twitter @Hurricane414

Member Comments

# 21 SBartlett @ 02/15/10 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bustahymes


	Id like to start of by saying that basing the locomotion aspects of live on soccer is not a bad thing. If you know anything about sports you would know that Steve Nash plays soccer and his footwork is, Ill let you fill in those blanks. Im sure other basketball players play soccer and it only serves to improve their footwork. Live was great this year IMO just lacking some animations. If you ask me Mr.Wang just wants money and is using whatever he learned from working on Live to improve 2K playing both sides of the fence make that money baby, its recession. As ive always said these games are practically identical just different approaches. It all depends on what you prefer shot stick vs. freestyle dribble. I choose Live because its literally in the game. if you get into the motions of the players combined with the analog stick work, I actually feel like Im on the court myself. The execution factor of 2K is enjoyable Live is just more fun to play. In closing Live needs to make the usual overall improvements and try to break the bank with animations and Id be satisfied.

yeah some of the best basketball players have great soccer skills. in my article though, i was trying to state that the running styles (lengthier and longer) from soccer are a bit flawed for a basketball title. look at madden 10 and try doing a screen pass - the wr will run backwards before forwards, almost the same thing in live. interesting how they can't get this fixed when they use the same base for their games ( as it would appear).

# 22 TreyIM2 @ 02/15/10 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bustahymes


	I choose Live because its literally in the game. if you get into the motions of the players combined with the analog stick work, I actually feel like Im on the court myself. The execution factor of 2K is enjoyable Live is just more fun to play. In closing Live needs to make the usual overall improvements and try to break the bank with animations and Id be satisfied.

Another part of my sentiments. I dealt with the shot stick but thought it was not lending itself to making me feel I was "actually on the court" when I played 2K. To me, the most exciting part of playing/watching basketball are the moves made, not the shot, so mapping the stick for shooting was not a good move, in my eyes. Using the right stick should be apart of the excitement and utilized for the most exciting part of playing/watching basketball, imo.

# 23 23 @ 02/15/10 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockchisler


	I can get to the paint draw contact and get the and 1, It just is very difficult, maybe me and u can get a game in and I can show u a thing or 2...

You arent answering rock, and im not talking about online. Single player is not balanced at all. Its horrendous between some players. The CPU cant score because of your Defense then it'll use the cheap momentum advantage I described for a cheap chest bump foul.

That trash gets old, and one reason its like that because once again there just arent nearly enough animations in this game.

...but what tweaks are you talking about I want to know

# 24 rockchisler @ 02/15/10 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 23


	You arent answering rock, and im not talking about online. Single player is not balanced at all. Its horrendous between some players. The CPU cant score because of your Defense then it'll use the cheap momentum advantage I described for a cheap chest bump foul. That trash gets old, and one reason its like that because once again there just arent nearly enough animations in this game. ...but what tweaks are you talking about I want to know

More off the ball fouls, I actually saw it one time where a guy was coming off a screen he got bumped and they called it, I was like what the hell? More animations in the paint, (Contact), U right about the chest bump animation, get rid of it or make that particular animation very few and far between.

# 25 The 24th Letter @ 02/15/10 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 23


	You can't throw a decent alley opp unless the guy is 2 feet from the rim and even then he'll brick those for no reason The CPU can take a guy like Dwight and bring the ball up the court on a fastbreak with crossovers but there are so many fundamental things you are not capable of after seeing that, that its disgusting. I hate how I cant drive in for a dunk or layup without being bodied up or whatever but the CPU can do a quick drive and dunk and you can't even move because the game has your feet in quicksand to contest it, or in time for that matter. Im not so sure the fifa thing works because again this game is far too imbalanced.

Completely agree.

# 26 23 @ 02/16/10 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockchisler


	More off the ball fouls, I actually saw it one time where a guy was coming off a screen he got bumped and they called it, I was like what the hell? More animations in the paint, (Contact), U right about the chest bump animation, get rid of it or make that particular animation very few and far between.

That's just not enough man.. its like, not enough variety in the game to make up for whats missing.

Shaq goes up for a layup and gets smacked around by guys like Fisher, foul or not like he's webster being clothes lined off of a skateboard. That's just not right.

I understand some guys are having fun becuase certain elements are nice, the jumpers, the crowd, the control, but once you get passed that, the game becomes shallow and it looks like it was signed by Mr Generic himself.

You can't even use a hangar type camera angle... The options given here or lack thereof are pretty lame, which is why im asking about your tweaks because alot of that doesnt seem to work or matter because no matter how many times I play LA, Fisher can do side steps like Chris Paul, Bynum always does step back dribbles on me and I end up cutting the game off because the CPU uses that crap to score when they can't get through otherwise.

..so increasing off ball fouls doesn't eliminate unnecessary contact when it otherwise wouldn't happen. Case in point the Stopping LeBron from a full court break just by standing there with Chris Duhon.

# 27 d12orlando @ 02/16/10 12:57 AM

Practice. 2k is a sim game. Means it is harder to do things. "the most exciting part of playing/watching basketball are the moves made" is why live is the place to go if you like those things. 2k is about fundamentals which is playing the game like it plays in real life. Having signature moves also help differentiate players. Garnett owns the low post and Kobe has the best separation in his fadeaways. Also anyone who says nba 2k10 does not play 100x better with the patches don't know ball.

# 28 rockchisler @ 02/16/10 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fcabanski


	#1 "And when I look at Live, the footwork resembles players dribbling a soccer ball on a giant playing field rather than a dribbling a basketball in an NBA arena." When describing technical aspects of a game, it's important to be precise. NBA players don't play in an arena, they play on a court. In soccer the field is in the stadium, in basketball the court is in the arena or stadium. The field and the court are where players play in each sport. #2 there is no such thing as classic rap. An album full of swearing and negative themes, cut by a guy awaiting criminal charges for gun possession and assault, isn't classic

Don't get holy on us about music, all music has some history of negativity so what. Dont like it go listen to Taylor Swift.

# 29 rockchisler @ 02/16/10 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 23


	That's just not enough man.. its like, not enough variety in the game to make up for whats missing. Shaq goes up for a layup and gets smacked around by guys like Fisher, foul or not like he's webster being clothes lined off of a skateboard. That's just not right. I understand some guys are having fun becuase certain elements are nice, the jumpers, the crowd, the control, but once you get passed that, the game becomes shallow and it looks like it was signed by Mr Generic himself. You can't even use a hangar type camera angle... The options given here or lack thereof are pretty lame, which is why im asking about your tweaks because alot of that doesnt seem to work or matter because no matter how many times I play LA, Fisher can do side steps like Chris Paul, Bynum always does step back dribbles on me and I end up cutting the game off because the CPU uses that crap to score when they can't get through otherwise. ..so increasing off ball fouls doesn't eliminate unnecessary contact when it otherwise wouldn't happen. Case in point the Stopping LeBron from a full court break just by standing there with Chris Duhon.

Hey u right Live has its issues but so does the "other " game, The other game cant even get the dribbling up the court with out doing some weird movement or sliding across the floor right, So as long as both get to work during this time then 11 should be something special.

# 30 The 24th Letter @ 02/16/10 02:12 AM

LOL, but whats the "other game" have to do with it though, really?
The "other game" having faults doesnt make Live any better.....

I think thats the problem, Live needs to build its own legacy, so everytime we bring it up, we dont have to compare it....Look, they gave us a great showing this year...we can only hope they can build and make Live truly relevant again..

# 31 23 @ 02/16/10 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockchisler


	Hey u right Live has its issues but so does the "other " game, The other game cant even get the dribbling up the court with out doing some weird movement or sliding across the floor right, So as long as both get to work during this time then 11 should be something special.

Man im in the NBA Live forum talking about NBA Live about an NBA Live article.

That's a terrible deflection even going there, rock

If I want to play this game, I dont want to think about anything but this game. I cant enjoy the controls or jumpers too long before i hit things I described multiple times in a quarter and it sucks.

Some of the things I stated shouldn't even be programmed into the system. Bigs doing euro steps when you have their path blocked... that crap is insane.

I was asking you what tweaks you had that makes live fun but I dont see anything yet that remedy the real issues im pointing out.

When the game plays like this, its not fun at all. Its a path to frustration and some ridiculousness too.

If you can save this game for me, tell me how. I cant go off of, its just fun anymore man... alot of this stuff is old.

# 32 rockchisler @ 02/16/10 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 23


	You can't throw a decent alley opp unless the guy is 2 feet from the rim and even then he'll brick those for no reason The CPU can take a guy like Dwight and bring the ball up the court on a fastbreak with crossovers but there are so many fundamental things you are not capable of after seeing that, that its disgusting. I hate how I cant drive in for a dunk or layup without being bodied up or whatever but the CPU can do a quick drive and dunk and you can't even move because the game has your feet in quicksand to contest it, or in time for that matter. Im not so sure the fifa thing works because again this game is far too imbalanced.

1. I could care less about alley oops since u see it maybe twice agame in real life so I wont comment
2. Never seen Dwight do that so I cant answer
3. I would like to see more contact animations in the paint instead of the same ones now, But Like I said I can get to the paint now with not too much of a problem, My feet are not in quicksand when I defend, i just give them some space.

# 33 Dantecamp21 @ 02/16/10 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 23


	Man im in the NBA Live forum talking about NBA Live about an NBA Live article. That's a terrible deflection even going there, rock If I want to play this game, I dont want to think about anything but this game. I cant enjoy the controls or jumpers too long before i hit things I described multiple times in a quarter and it sucks. Some of the things I stated shouldn't even be programmed into the system. Bigs doing euro steps when you have their path blocked... that crap is insane. I was asking you what tweaks you had that makes live fun but I dont see anything yet that remedy the real issues im pointing out. When the game plays like this, its not fun at all. Its a path to frustration and some ridiculousness too. If you can save this game for me, tell me how. I cant go off of, its just fun anymore man... alot of this stuff is old.

23, your point is valid when you say the game has a lot of flaws. Some of us can get over it and have fun while playing it, while others get caught up in it and start to get more and more frustrated with the game (and rightfully so).

The contact animation when going to the hoop almost made me give up on the game entirely, wich is a shame because I really like this game whenever everything clicks.

What I realized is that you can at least make the contact animation issue less frustrating. It's all triggered depending of the time you press the shot button in the lane.

For instance, if you get blow past your defender and just after that you press the shot button, you'll probably end up with the dreaded contact animation, no foul and no basket. But if you press the button closer to the basket and the opponent guarding it, more often than not you will get a whistle.

It's kinda lame to know what will happen, but at least the game gets playable that way. And it's not terribly far from reality, when you have a guy like Wade you are supposed to get to the lane and eventually, draw the foul and go to the line.

But at the other side of the coin, we shouldn't even be talking about it since the game should do a better job of dealing with different dribble drive speeds, player momentum, weight, strength, etc...

# 34 sportyguyfl31 @ 02/16/10 07:11 AM

Ive been getting realistic shooting %'s, scores, and user vs CPU foul shot numbers, pretty much from day one, on default all star settings.

Live does many of the core "sim" elements of basetball very, very well.

Its ironic. Live has a legit arguement of being the most "sim" basketball title out right now, but the number one knock on the game, is that there isnt enough flavor.

The dynasty mode layout and presentation is pretty darn basic. In 2k, there's just flat out more things to do, hands on as a user.

But as far as control, pace , play calling, gameplay, and on court NBA "feel"..Live has that.

I just do not undestand the "generic" comments. In Live you can do crosses, hesitations, spins, step backs, drop steps, up and unders, post fallways, post spin, bank shots, floaters, control what hand you want to lay up, post pump fake and drive, post pump fake, back down, hook/drop/post spin, layup/dunk..whatever. Its all there.

In 2k10, its all there as well. You can do the same exact moves..the only difference is the control layout.

If you dont like how these moves animate, then that is a entirely different arguement.

But everything that you would want an NBA player to be able to do, you absolutely can do, in Live.

# 35 utexas @ 02/16/10 10:23 AM

Love the game, it has some issues, but one of the most realistic bball gaming experiences that I have had.

# 36 23 @ 02/16/10 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockchisler


	1. I could care less about alley oops since u see it maybe twice agame in real life so I wont comment 2. Never seen Dwight do that so I cant answer 3. I would like to see more contact animations in the paint instead of the same ones now, But Like I said I can get to the paint now with not too much of a problem, My feet are not in quicksand when I defend, i just give them some space.

You're losing me rock.. Ive yet to see your tweaks posted and and you're blowing off things that you know are just out of control.

Bynum does stepback fadeaways. You haven't seen that either but I posted it for you.. Come on man.. and because you dont care about oops dont mean its not ******** looking.

Save the game for me since its fun with the tweaks, but what are they?

# 37 DJ @ 02/16/10 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportyguyfl31


	Ive been getting realistic shooting %'s, scores, and user vs CPU foul shot numbers, pretty much from day one, on default all star settings. Live does many of the core "sim" elements of basetball very, very well. Its ironic. Live has a legit arguement of being the most "sim" basketball title out right now, but the number one knock on the game, is that there isnt enough flavor. The dynasty mode layout and presentation is pretty darn basic. In 2k, there's just flat out more things to do, hands on as a user. But as far as control, pace , play calling, gameplay, and on court NBA "feel"..Live has that. I just do not undestand the "generic" comments. In Live you can do crosses, hesitations, spins, step backs, drop steps, up and unders, post fallways, post spin, bank shots, floaters, control what hand you want to lay up, post pump fake and drive, post pump fake, back down, hook/drop/post spin, layup/dunk..whatever. Its all there. In 2k10, its all there as well. You can do the same exact moves..the only difference is the control layout. If you dont like how these moves animate, then that is a entirely different arguement. But everything that you would want an NBA player to be able to do, you absolutely can do, in Live.

Great post, Sporty.

Yeah, Dynasty mode is lacking in features but as you said, the on-court play is perhaps the most-sim we've seen in a while from an NBA title.

The only thing it's missing is a "real" low post game but I've been labbing the low post moves a lot recently in some Exhibition games and I've got to tell ya, there is depth there once you get a handle on the controls. I'm really liking the drop step.

23, I will agree with you on the fact that yes, it is terribly frustrating when you see guys like Howard, Bosh and other big men euro-stepping for layups while on your end of the floor, you can't even make a single layup. But, hey, no game is perfect and I can live with some of the flaws since it doesn't happen all the time.

The contact animations are a pain but I think they bring a nice touch of realism to the game. If you drive the lane, more often than not you are going to take a bump or two along the way. To score, you need to experiment. Lay off the turbo button once you blow past your man and use the layup solutions and you'll find yourself scoring and/or going to line, much more frequently. The trouble happens when you try and take the ball all the way to the rim with a big in the way. 9 out of 10 times, you're going to miss that shot with most players as the contact will throw your shot off just enough.

# 38 Dantecamp21 @ 02/16/10 11:53 AM

As many of you (including me) are pointing here, the fact is: Live 10 is a very, very solid basketball game, a great first effort by the team that was assembled during this last development cycle.

And it was also critically acclaimed by the more mainstream game sites as well (like Gametrailers, Gamespot, IGN, Gamedaily, etc). The huge problem was the poor performance on the sales chart. And that helped create the perception to the average gamer that the game wasn't good.

Yes, it has its flaws gameplay-wise (just like Madden, 2K10 and any other game) but It's an all-around polished product: it plays a strong, fundamentally sound brand of basketball, has the best play-calling system in the genre, it does have an excellent online functionality, there is fresh new content every week (with the kicks and stuff), and it's very well presented.

EA needs to make an effort to make the game reach more people, but not by taking the easy way out: the arcade route. Instead, they gotta build on top of what was already done right and keep improving the game.

I'd say a price cut would go a long way towards establishing the franchise back on the right path. I hope they realize that.

# 39 FamousAtticus @ 02/16/10 11:55 AM

I honestly think the "dream" for Live eneded back in the Playstation 2 days. The Live series was my NBA game of choice from 1993's Bulls vs Lakers on SNES all the way through up until NBA Live 2000(the one w/ Tim Duncan on the cover), then I purchased a Dreamcast and was introduced to NBA 2K. I must say NBA Live lost a lot of its luster to me as the years have gone by(i'm a hardcore sim player), I tried this year to give NBA Live a try but it just lacked in the gameplay and sim aspect that I'm now used to. It will be sad if Live's future is in fact in jeopardy, I have secretely always hoped that Live would get back to the top where it once was in my eyes so then I would have 2 top tier NBA games to choose from. But that I guess doesn't appear likely anymore...bummer.

# 40 Pared @ 02/16/10 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smokez4DAyz


	Please with the garbage. Live is trash. Very Big Trash. You dudes kill me, last week it was ways to fix 2k10, but this week its Live has it but it needs the dream? WTF? You dudes must be younger than me, to fall for this bs. 2K is the far superior title, and I come on a website called Operation Sports and they constantly talk about righting live, instead of more strategy and game talk about 2K...WTF? Footplanting is your biggest problem? how about just passing or the ease of 3pts or the ease of Dunks, or the bad substitution patterns. Do you guys smile when you create these fake topics. Now you admit you use SOCCER to fix your basketball...stupid, and cheap. SOCCER, and you see it now that you've said, the fastbreaks pause like you waiting for a soccerball....lmao...who the hell is playing that ARCADE game LIVE10...NBA2K since NBA2K on the 'Cast.

I think your post is very out of line and you should turn it down a few notches.

Live is far from trash, but I agree with you about the scope of some of these articles. Live needs a LOT more than what's being talked about here.

It's a shame, too. I think Live needs some more involvement from the community. Not sure if they even know it, but it would go a long way to make the game everyone here wants. Let's be realistic... if the Live team listened to your legit complaints (not "this is trash) then wouldn't you be more inclined to give it a shot?

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