"Was it all a dream?"
Those were the famous words sung by Faith Evans on the classic Jay-Z album Blueprint 2.
They also happen to be the same words some NBA Live fans are repeating after recently learning that producer Mike Wang is migrating back over to 2K Sports. Obviously, questions remain about the direction of the franchise after the latest news.
While Live fans keep praying for another breakthrough in next year’s release, here are some ideas to ponder.
Footwork
EA Sports runs a lot of their games off similar animation-technology (ANT) engines that are shared amongst their titles. So some of the footwork and momentum issues you see in Madden also exist in Live, but not to the same degree.
Nevertheless, footwork is a critical part of the post game, and Live 10 does not deliver quick, intuitive controls complete with foot pivots, fakes and the leans we all are looking for.
Right around when Live 10 was released, Mike Wang at EA Canada told me his team utilized the FIFA locomotion engine quite a bit when working on the Live 10 footwork. While he said it was very difficult to strike a balance between responsiveness and realistic momentum, he believed Live had achieved this goal.
Here is my issue with using FIFA's locomotion engine for the game of basketball: Soccer is played on enormous playing surface with players covering many yards in longer strides.
So, while you can learn a great deal of footwork by playing soccer and apply it to basketball, it is still a different sport with different athlete skill sets and running styles.
And when I look at Live, the footwork resembles players dribbling a soccer ball on a giant playing field rather than a dribbling a basketball in an NBA arena. I feel like the players are in a constant state of evasiveness instead of protecting the ball while they dribble through traffic and around defenders.
As you play through NBA Live 10, throw an outlet pass and try to turn it up court. You will find that players take a long period of time and space to make their initial turn towards the opposing hoop. These moves should be quick and explosive from start to stop. These issues carry over to the low post.
Why EA Can Succeed
To EA Canada’s credit, the foot-planting technology in the NBA Live engine was improved, with much of the credit going to the development team's ability to recognize the natural footwork issues in the game. EA Canada added animations this year to make the moves tighter and improved the momentum.
Also, Live 10 differentiates players based on their first step, acceleration, top speed in the open court, ability to change directions and ability to stop on a dime.
In theory, this sounds like an amazing approach to bring solid footwork to the game of basketball –- but theories do not always translate into realistic gameplay, especially on the low blocks.
Still, the strategy is in place, EA Canada just has to execute it now.
The Dream
The locomotion issues I stated above affect a lot of the small adjustments in attributes that were added to the game. I feel as though this is one of the main reasons why the post game struggles.
I also find a lack of weight and balance on the blocks in Live 10; the offensive players in the post take big steps -- too big to make any sort of tight, quick pivots down in the post.
Instead of using Hakeem Olajuwon footwork, we are forced to use back downs and baby jump hooks the majority of the time. I feel like there is no inherent sense of methodology going on in the madness of the paint.
Live 10 needs to hit the gym with The Dream himself -- similar to what Kobe did this past summer -- and get the post game down. Sure, getting a guy like Dwight Howard in the motion-capture studio will get you the flashy dunks, but not the fundamentals. And after what the development team did this year, the game still has so much potential to be a great basketball title.
Therefore, motion capturing for bigs, forwards and guards is needed. Get all their footwork into the game to distinguish the different playing styles for each position.
And the great part is that The Dream can instruct motion capturing of athletes for all of these positions -- that is what made him such a wonder to watch.
His unique blend of size, style, agility and elegant grace re-invented and reborn in a basketball video game would help Live take the crown without question.
Follow my OS stories and more on Twitter @Hurricane414
Feature Article
NBA Live Needs the Dream
Submitted on: 02/15/2010 by
Steven Bartlett
Member Comments
How about this... lets leave 2k out of this thread once and for all. The next time it gets derailed on a 2k post an infraction will follow.
That said, I only wanted rock's game tweaks. NBA Live 10 is far from trash, and as I said rock, if you can save the game for me, tell me exactly what you did. Im not here to smash on the game, but as I played last night I saw some of the things happen that made me turn the game off. Things happen but when you see it far too often it gets real hard...
Dj... I know about layup solutions and such. Has nothing to do with the fact that some things arent executed right even if its because of a lack here or there. I watch enough basketball to know that this doesn't happen 90% of the time because the guy isnt starting a layup reverse from outside the ft line. That's garbage...
Then again, as I said the CPU seems to be held to a different standard of physics when it comes to them wanting to score. Its just not balanced.
That said, I only wanted rock's game tweaks. NBA Live 10 is far from trash, and as I said rock, if you can save the game for me, tell me exactly what you did. Im not here to smash on the game, but as I played last night I saw some of the things happen that made me turn the game off. Things happen but when you see it far too often it gets real hard...
Dj... I know about layup solutions and such. Has nothing to do with the fact that some things arent executed right even if its because of a lack here or there. I watch enough basketball to know that this doesn't happen 90% of the time because the guy isnt starting a layup reverse from outside the ft line. That's garbage...
Then again, as I said the CPU seems to be held to a different standard of physics when it comes to them wanting to score. Its just not balanced.
# 42
bigsmallwood @ 02/16/10 12:45 PM
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NBA Live 10 is not trash...however it needs some serious work in order to be a GREAT NBA sim game. I have tried numerous peoples sliders here and most of them amount to cheap gimmicks that do not change the gameplay for me. I am not looking to just win a game by 30 points and take the MVP...if I am losing, I want it to be logical...if I am under the basket with D. Howard and he does some odd looking lay-up 90% of the time, when all he had to do is throw it down (dunk), which is what he does in real life, its a problem with the game. Most of Live's issues are fixable within a one year time frame....the question is will we see it happen. Most of us would be all too happy to have PROPER community interaction without people bashing devs...we just want a great game that lives up to expectations.
# 43
blackscorpion11 @ 02/16/10 08:38 PM
NBA live falls under the same mediocre efforts that ALL EA sports games fall under..In my gamer's heart i firmly believe that EA has no true interest in innovation, they make only enough changes to keep us sheep buying year after year. If they fix everything and give a us a sim or near sim, then we won't buy a new game for 2 or 3yrs!! They want us buying every year..
If you reject this opinion thats cool, but then you MUST admit that they are incompetent for not having fixed minor game flaws that have existed for the last 4 to 5yrs ???? example :The TOYOTA recalls currently happening...Those flaws will be fixed immediately..immediately.. not two vehicle versions from now.. Do you really believe that EA sports cannot write code to change character behaviors to mimic basketball semi-realistically?? Of course they can, just not all at once..because they want repeat business..
Sorry to go off topic but i can't stomach this pie in the sky talk about what next years game may or may not be?
If you reject this opinion thats cool, but then you MUST admit that they are incompetent for not having fixed minor game flaws that have existed for the last 4 to 5yrs ???? example :The TOYOTA recalls currently happening...Those flaws will be fixed immediately..immediately.. not two vehicle versions from now.. Do you really believe that EA sports cannot write code to change character behaviors to mimic basketball semi-realistically?? Of course they can, just not all at once..because they want repeat business..
Sorry to go off topic but i can't stomach this pie in the sky talk about what next years game may or may not be?
# 44
Tommyklaid @ 02/16/10 11:12 PM
I own 2K but I have been playing Live ever since my roommate started up Gamefly...I am LOVIN' LIVE this year! I am having sooo much fun with it! Next years impovements should give 2K a run for its money, because 2K seems to have hit a wall - should be an interesting October!!!!
# 45
ShindoHikaru @ 02/17/10 10:31 AM
IMO, whatever hopes we have in NBA Live 11 we've carried over from NBA Live 10 will fade because of Mike Wang's departure. Perhaps some of his influence will carry over the next release but they'll be back to where they were before Mike Wang came there.
Can we stop the 2k vs. Live posts? It's bad enough some of you can't explain your reasoning but the outright bashing is going to stop.
# 47
inkpimp007 @ 02/20/10 10:10 AM
Here's the problem with this title in opinion.
You can never be sure what you are getting from Live from year to year. The only consistent thing you can rely on is hearing "wait until next year, we're almost there." I'm almost convinced there can be no basketball game made in Canada without taking two steps back. Live dev teams seem to suffer fro memory lose, there is always a constant back and forth of adding features then taking them out only to add them back in. At this point there should be no discussion where fundamentals are concerned, they should have had that grown work cover long before now. But sadly once again when Live 11 hits there going to be selling us on put back dunks. For all the great work with momentum how do you not factor in player weight? When Shaq can't affectively back down anyone (drawing the double) then whats the point of even having a center on the floor. This game just doesn't feel balanced, which leads to frustration and controller throwing.
I think personally Live needs 2 years of uninterrupted development, but they also have to pick a side. By that i mean the upper management has to decide what audience they are making this game for. If it's sim then commit to sim. I don't think Live is in that bad of shape when you consider the competition isn't doing that much better in the get it right department. Both titles have different issues.
You can never be sure what you are getting from Live from year to year. The only consistent thing you can rely on is hearing "wait until next year, we're almost there." I'm almost convinced there can be no basketball game made in Canada without taking two steps back. Live dev teams seem to suffer fro memory lose, there is always a constant back and forth of adding features then taking them out only to add them back in. At this point there should be no discussion where fundamentals are concerned, they should have had that grown work cover long before now. But sadly once again when Live 11 hits there going to be selling us on put back dunks. For all the great work with momentum how do you not factor in player weight? When Shaq can't affectively back down anyone (drawing the double) then whats the point of even having a center on the floor. This game just doesn't feel balanced, which leads to frustration and controller throwing.
I think personally Live needs 2 years of uninterrupted development, but they also have to pick a side. By that i mean the upper management has to decide what audience they are making this game for. If it's sim then commit to sim. I don't think Live is in that bad of shape when you consider the competition isn't doing that much better in the get it right department. Both titles have different issues.
# 48
rockchisler @ 02/21/10 10:37 PM
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# 49
sportyguyfl31 @ 02/24/10 10:02 PM
I really have no idea why people think Live is in for doom and gloom because Mike Wang left.
Live 09 introduced DNA, DNA hot zones, quick strike driblbling, the current play calling system. Wang had nothing to do with any of that.
It would be silly to just all of a sudden think that EA is going to scrap it, or not tweak it further.
They created the dang features to begin with.
Heck Live 09, had signature animationsthat didnt make it into '10. I can only assume that dynamic season took those resources.
Live 09 introduced DNA, DNA hot zones, quick strike driblbling, the current play calling system. Wang had nothing to do with any of that.
It would be silly to just all of a sudden think that EA is going to scrap it, or not tweak it further.
They created the dang features to begin with.
Heck Live 09, had signature animationsthat didnt make it into '10. I can only assume that dynamic season took those resources.
# 50
Behindshadows @ 02/24/10 10:41 PM
Live team did a great job on 10 and I think 11 will shut up a lot of the ignorance and biased comments that continue to spit out of some people mouth's.
MW or not, more than one man made Live 10 and you have to give those individuals their credit. The game was leaps and bounds better than Live 09 in 10 months time. I can only see the series improving.
MW or not, more than one man made Live 10 and you have to give those individuals their credit. The game was leaps and bounds better than Live 09 in 10 months time. I can only see the series improving.
Man stop it with this bias talk and how you guys dont understand
First of all EA has a history, thats reason #1 people dont trust EA
Second, Its the "new direction" comment that bothers people
Third Moving some of the devs who worked on this game elsewhere and one leaving is another thing that raised people's eyebrows.
At this point, EA doesnt have alot of leg room with the fans. Since this gen started its been disaster after disaster, and once something respectable comes out BOOM, new direction.
People are going to wait and see, not claiming doom and gloom. The marketing thing has worn out now, just the same as the limited animations the generic player likenesses/tendencies...
There are a number of things that bother people that shouldn't be ignored.
Like I said, people are going to wait and see
First of all EA has a history, thats reason #1 people dont trust EA
Second, Its the "new direction" comment that bothers people
Third Moving some of the devs who worked on this game elsewhere and one leaving is another thing that raised people's eyebrows.
At this point, EA doesnt have alot of leg room with the fans. Since this gen started its been disaster after disaster, and once something respectable comes out BOOM, new direction.
People are going to wait and see, not claiming doom and gloom. The marketing thing has worn out now, just the same as the limited animations the generic player likenesses/tendencies...
There are a number of things that bother people that shouldn't be ignored.
Like I said, people are going to wait and see
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I fully understand how folks say Live is generic but I also see why people like Live.
# 53
Behindshadows @ 02/24/10 11:48 PM
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1st off, they are two different companys, two different gameplay engines, two different graphics engines, two different everything.
The games are different, stop trying to compare them and stop expecting them to be a like, play alike or anything else. That's why this game is hated so much, because for years the competitions game plays so well, that even at the slightest of a difference, then it just plain sucks.
I agree with Dre' about a few things, I do agree with him that the team is still limiting this series, too many little things can be implemented into it and it would be an outstanding ball game.
On the court it's solid, options wise it's barebones. Even the online is great, just needs a better setup lobby. Leagues, and a few other things that will eliminate so much heart ache from even the loyals who've made it thus far.
Firtsly I love Live 10, I know its not perfect but worth building on, cant put the damn game down. I PM'd Blackflash questioning the diffent direction the game is heading since the MW statement and his reply:
Regarding LIVE 11, the direction the game is taking is a good one. Pared said it best on OS when he said that NBA LIVE needs to have its own identity. If you look at LIVE 10, the game played a lot like NBA 2K and it didn't really differentiate itself from 2K. LIVE 11 will take that step to differentiating itself in an AWESOME way. I can't go into it exactly but you will like it when you hear more about it in the coming months.
It sounds like the game is just going in a "different" direction not a "new" one, but still sim.. Im hoping Live 11 is going to be a great game, will just have to wait and see.
Regarding LIVE 11, the direction the game is taking is a good one. Pared said it best on OS when he said that NBA LIVE needs to have its own identity. If you look at LIVE 10, the game played a lot like NBA 2K and it didn't really differentiate itself from 2K. LIVE 11 will take that step to differentiating itself in an AWESOME way. I can't go into it exactly but you will like it when you hear more about it in the coming months.
It sounds like the game is just going in a "different" direction not a "new" one, but still sim.. Im hoping Live 11 is going to be a great game, will just have to wait and see.
I just played Live 09 for the heck of it since Sage mentioned it to me
There are so many things where they dropped the ball from that game its crazy
Right now the CPU wont even kick the ball around the perimeter looking for the best shot... its a one pass and shoot or just come down and shoot by the PG
The defensive rotations in Live 09 were far better than this game also. Some sad stuff to see
There are so many things where they dropped the ball from that game its crazy
Right now the CPU wont even kick the ball around the perimeter looking for the best shot... its a one pass and shoot or just come down and shoot by the PG
The defensive rotations in Live 09 were far better than this game also. Some sad stuff to see
# 56
Behindshadows @ 02/25/10 03:34 AM
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Like I said, that is one of the things that is flawed about the series, removing things. But again Live 10 is a very good and fun game.
Also Be A Pro should have returned, ASW should have never left, even though I did kind of hate it. I hated the controls more than the mode.
But again on the court this game does a lot things right, but like you said,"a lot of what was removed is crazy"!
# 57
sportyguyfl31 @ 02/25/10 09:12 AM
Right now, the way things stand, my 1 main concern is the EA team/suits, saying to themselves: "We have to make the game more like 2k."
That would be disaster.
They need to stick with a direction, and keep Live distinct, and the best it can be, without making the game a circus.
That would be disaster.
They need to stick with a direction, and keep Live distinct, and the best it can be, without making the game a circus.
Im not sure if they're saying that or not.
2k had a gameplan and stuck with it. Im not sure what happened with NBA Live. It was tops in 2005 then it started going haywire starting with the wacky freestyle superstar gimmick
Main thing is you dont drop the ball this much and expect to be on top
Go back and play Live 09...although some things in 10 are better, alot of things are worse from animations to basic CPU passing the ball around the perimeter.
2k had a gameplan and stuck with it. Im not sure what happened with NBA Live. It was tops in 2005 then it started going haywire starting with the wacky freestyle superstar gimmick
Main thing is you dont drop the ball this much and expect to be on top
Go back and play Live 09...although some things in 10 are better, alot of things are worse from animations to basic CPU passing the ball around the perimeter.
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# 60
sportyguyfl31 @ 02/25/10 12:44 PM
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I agree.
There are things in Live 09 that I really liked that I was bummed were not there in '10.
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