I've been keeping an eye out for your sliders. Glad to see them up. I see you're sticking with the "close to default" approach, which looks like the way to go this year. Just had a question about penalties. I know you and Josh have gone back and forth with ideas/findings in the past (last year anyway), and wondered what you thought of his penalties theory, specifically the offensive holding slider being drastically lowered to eliminate "suction" blocks and "dancing" between lineman. I'm sure you've read his thoughts so I wont expand on them here. I see you on the other hand have raised offensive holding above default. Do you think the so called "suction" blocking isn't an issue, or do you just appreciate a good holding penalty being called? Lol.

Thanks for stopping by TW56! I did see what Josh has been moving to with regard to the Holding penalty slider. The reasons I'm sticking with 55 (so far) are:

1) In testing, both Trojan Man and I came to the conclusion that any combo that wasn't "All 55" seemed to nerf the CPU QB play. My assumption is that is more likely based on the DPI and RTP settings, but Madden is a fragile "House of Cards", so I went the "safe route"...I am interested in finding out how Holding @ 10 would play with this set, so if you try it, please let me know what you think.

2) My overall approach is "Stats" based. I'll take tight stats and accept "less than" animations where need be. Stats drive player development / progression / regression / team building and all off the field actions. Rarely, with this title can you have both.

3) Suction blocking and "Madden Tackling" have been eyesores in that game for so long, I'm not confident that they can be bred out of the engine without sacrificing stats / core gameplay.

All that being said, I'm open to trying it, but my gut tells me that it's going to "set off the dominoes" with these blocking sliders. Since they also influence the run and pass games in their totality (as opposed to just influencing duration and strength of block), it's a bigger adjustment than one may assume.

GREAT question!

Regards

Regards





4) My overall approach is "Stats" based. I'll live with "less than" animations to get tight stats. Stats drive player progression / development / team building and all off the field action, so that's always been my priority.

Whoops! My formatting on that post is messed up and I can't figure out how to edit it.

There's no "4", but then again, maybe that point deserves to be repeated twice?



I'm sticking with the "double regards" tho...

Okay, I decided to try Holding at 10 and it unfortunately it turned these sliders into a "Sack Fest". CPU could still run the ball a bit, but the timing of the pass rush versus the CPU PBK and general QB AWR went to heck. This would require raising the CPU PBK considerably, which would result in inflated completion percentage.

Too late to incorporate into this set, IMHO.

Worth a shot tho! I always appreciate Josh's take on sliders.

Thanks for the feedback, man. There's always a lot of different ways to approach slider settings. Obviously on Josh's set, holding @ 10 is producing good results/animations, where as with yours, it messes with the fragile "house of cards" and offsets other things. I appreciate you taking the time to test never the less.

One other thing; tackling and facemask. I've always been of the opinion that tackling must be lowered to produce more missed tackles and so defenders don't always take that "perfect" angle on the ball carrier. Also produces a smaller tackle "radius" for ball carriers to get sucked into. I also generally prefer the animations with tackling and facemask set to less than default, as to not make every tackle a bone crunching hit, even produced by smaller DB's on tough to tackle RB's. How are you finding these settings, with tackling @ 50 and facemask raised @ 55?

I also prefer a lower TAK setting and started with it @ 40 when I began to try to "improve upon default".

Unfortunately, that resulted in a VERY unrealistic amount of broken tackles for both the HUM and (esp.) CPU sides of the ball.

That would be fixed most easily by lowering the FUM slider (which is actually the RBA and BTK sliders as well) to match the reduced TAK setting.

Since the FUM slider also has HB AWR folded into it, that results in the backs often hitting the wrong hole or failing to cut back, etc.

The TAK slider also affect the "strength of pursuit" in the pass rush. Lowering TAK without lowering PBK results in too much time in the pocket. That results in unrealistic completion percentages. "Too much time" can also make the CPU QB indecisive.

Also, many of this year's "incomplete pass" animations are actually a result of a defender blasting the ball out of the receiver's hands. Lower TAK = higher completion percentages / big plays.

To mitigate that one COULD lower CTH, which unfortunately ALSO has AWR tied to it. Lower settings result in poor route running and the ball distribution goes to heck. The WRs are pretty much nerfed and the TE and HB get too many targets.

The facemask penalty slider is also part of all of the above.In addition to strength of hit, it also has a pursuit element to it. Lowering that and / or TAK has quite the "domino effect".

To me the core of the game is getting the passing games right and building out from there. The timing in the pocket is the key. You not only want the right amount of sacks, but hurries / hits / knockdowns / etc.

That timing determines who gets the ball and when, with what degree of accuracy. Once you get the timing of the HB and WR screen plays down to a realistic variation of typical result. You're going in the right direction!

The set posted does that.

So, as a result of "all of the above", I choose "stats over animations" as well as moving ONE slider back to default, as opposed to moving multiple sliders below.

Moving multiple sliders below default also affects CPU playcalling on both offense and defense. If you get those proportions wrong, the run versus pass numbers on offense go off target and on defense you'll start seeing too many 8 in the box or Cover 3 defenses. They overplay the run or the deep pass and forget everything else.

This year, I found that the further one tried to move from default the worse things played and stat-ed out.

Big Ups to anyone who can find a way to have tight animations AND tight stats, but I'm skeptical.

Lastly, there's a lot to be said for "expedience". This is the first year in many that I'm actually enjoying my franchise this early in the cycle.

I'm getting VERY tight stats and competitive / realistic results, so I'll live with the WWE hits and the suction blocking.

They've been in this engine since PS2 days, so it's a "pick your poison" issue, IMHO.

#stats

Wow. Thanks for the lengthy and very informative post. I completely understand where you're coming from now. I've got my own sliders which I'm enjoying, but I think that's just this years Madden in general tbh. It's a great game. I'm not oblivious to the fact that I don't do anywhere near the "testing" you guys do. I just kind of plug and play and go off of "feel" without really evaluating the nuances of what's happening everywhere on screen. I don't go back and watch replays, or analyze stats, or consider the trade offs when moving one slider and how that could potentially disrupt another. I'm not as "in the know" with how intertwined the sliders and penalties are, or even how in depth they are. For example, lowering tackle slowing down the pass rush. I've never really considered that or done the testing, just figure lower tackle means more missed tackles, less big hits, less suction tackling, worse pursuit angles, etc. I'm appreciative of the work you guys put in to test and develop sliders to better this already great game. Even the theory of all penalties @ 55 getting the best CPU QB play. I would never even consider that. Long story short, I'll have to just plug and play your sliders and see how they feel to me. I imagine there will be a lot of good in there. I understand what you're going for with this set, so I'll keep that in mind while playing. Thanks again!

You don`t get too many cpu pancakes with RB at 75? Does DL and LB block shade the blocks with RB that high?

Actually, the pancakes are even to the HUM side of the ball...3-5 or so per game...

The shading is the same at any setting, as are things like blitz pickup...

The blocking sliders don't seem to have an AWR component to them, they are simply "strength and duration" of block...

It's a little "sticky" looking but that's the tradeoff for a robust run game for the CPU...

Let me know what YOU think...it's worth a few game sample, IMHO...

Starting using these for a new CFM. 2 games in with the 49ers. Have a good feel to them so far. I normally don't judge sliders til about 5 games in so i get a good sample size. Thanks for these though. was having major slideritis and i think i will roll with these for the remainder.

Thanks for trying them and thanks for the positive feedback. Let me know how they hold up for you in the long(er) haul. Since there's so much variation to the types of games ANY set produces, finding the most stable base set for each / any individual USER is key. Regards!

King, I'm glad to see from your posts that I'm not going crazy...I've seen some weird things happen when just moving one slider here and there. The "house of cards," as you put it, where one slider change can impact multiple areas of the game. I love AP Default except for the poor CPU run game. But if I move the CPU RBK slider up, it impacts X. If I lower USER TKL, it affects Y, etc.

Like you, I care more about stats than animations, so I'm going to test out this set. Just a couple quick questions before I do:

1) Do you "match" your sliders between the Main Menu and the CFM? Or do you leave the Main Menu sliders at default and just adjust within your CFM? I ask because it definitely makes a difference in how the game works, just like last year.

2) I assume you don't play "Coach Mode," do you? I do, so I was just curious how these would work, but I guess I'll have to find out for myself.

Well picker19, the "interdependence" of Madden sliders is one of the least understood and underestimated parts of the puzzle. Not only do sliders work in consort with other sliders that one would least expect, but they can also sightly affect the other side of the ball.

For instance, simply raising or lowering ONE slider can influence how the "static" value in the same category plays for the opponent.

Also, the totals in the passing / running / pass defense categories influence each slider withing that category. For instance, PBK affects QBA. If you leave QBA at 50 and then test PBK at 0, the accuracy and effectiveness of the passing game will be much lower than having PBK at 100, etc.

"House of Cards", indeed!

To your specific questions:

1) The game plays better when ALL gameplay and penalty sliders match your Main Menu / Profile settings EXACTLY in CFM and within the actual played games. That was part of the (pre patch) reason for the "All 55" penalty settings. Not only does the game play more smoothly when "everything matches everywhere", but it also plays more smoothly when you make any changes to any setting BEFORE you advance to the next week. All these things are subtle, but do exist.

2) I don't play Coach Mode, but these are "Strategy Over Skills" influenced. I'm no thumb jockey!

So, although some of the slider categories appear to be "extreme" they don't stat out that way. Best example: CPU RBK @ 75 only generates a few pancakes per game, equal to HUM @ 40.

My goal is to always find "true default", what the game SHOULD play like at "All 50".

As a result, they may work quite well for Coach Mode, but that's up to you!

Thanks for trying them and please keep me posted!

Thank you for the detailed response. It looks like I have met the right person! I have collected a lot of data from testing various slider sets, and as I look them over, it makes no sense. I thought I was going crazy and no one else was seeing the same thing!

For instance, using AP Default as the "control" group, let's say I see the CPU run game needs a boost. So, naturally, you'd think to just raise CPU RBK and/or lower USER TKL and that would be it. But (and this is real based on my data) I've seen increasing CPU RBK improve overall offense (e.g., higher comp %) for both teams; or lower USER TKL also impacting the CPU's ability to tackle (i.e., my run game gets a boost, too). I've seen lowering INT doing more than just decreasing INTs, and lowering Facemask improve fumbles but also lead to more offense. And on top of that, you have slider matching, the dreaded tuner...way too many variables making it seem almost impossible to adjust the game in any logical way.

Either way, I'm at least glad someone else sees the chaos. And it was interesting to hear you say that you need to change the sliders before advancing to the next week. I was wondering why I would change a slider set, play a game, get X results, and then advance and save, come back, play the next game with the same slider set and get completely different results.

Anyway, sorry for the long diatribe. If you don't mind, a couple more questions for you:

1) I think it was you last year (if not, apologies), who might have discovered the whole AP/AP/AP skill level matching thing when you start the game with a new profile. If you don't know what I'm referring to, you can ignore the question, but I wanted to know if you had your original skill setting at AP, so all three are matched.

2) Can you explain more about your quote above: "For instance, simply raising or lowering ONE slider can influence how the "static" value in the same category plays for the opponent."?

3) Finally, I've noticed unpredictable game play behavior when you don't match the USER/CPU sliders versus having them all the same value. You have three sliders that are not matched. Have you seen anything "odd" when not matching them, or are they playing as predicted (meaning, you lower USER RBK and it only impacts the USER run game)?

Thanks in advance for all your help!

1) Yeah, I think it was me who found the "levels trick" last year and then Josh and Co. confirmed. I discussed w / Josh this year before taking the shrinkwrap off and he influenced me to just go AP across the board and I've seen nothing that's made me want to try messing with it...yet?



2) Let use the almighty INT slider as out example. Let's say you have it set to 40 / 40 and decide to lower HUM to 35 to give the CPU more offence. The CPU's "40" is going to play slightly differently at 35 / 40 than the original 40 / 40...it's not the best way to explain it's subtle effects, but it's KIND OF LIKE at 40 / 40 both play like 40 / 40 and at 35 / 40 the CPU 40 plays more like 42 or so? The "push me / pull you" effect is much more pronounced on AM, which is why that level is a b*tch to tune...much more subtle on AP, but still in existence...

3) No, the values that don't "match" don't "set off the dominoes" because after trying EVERY combo, those values SEEM to be what the engine really responds to / likes...although HUM RBK at 40 and CPU RBK at 75 LOOK very different, they play equally...I think the engine think's those values are "50"...

That being said the "matching" I was originally referring to was with regard to matching the values in Profile / Main Menu / CFM...

In general: as you have seen, the sliders are not named properly and therefore confuse folks...

For instance, I call the QBA slider the "Universal Modifier of Offensive Success" slider and the INT slider is the "Universal Modifier of Ball Awareness" slider...and on and one, including the penalty sliders...

Related to all of this, you might find this discussion of interest:

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...post2047799648

Great questions, BTW!