05:01 PM - March 3, 2016 by Steve_OS
The MLB The Show 16 Twitch stream has begun, post your thoughts here!
For those that miss out, we will update this post with the archive, when it has completed.
UPDATE: Here is the archive.
MLB The Show 16 News Post
05:01 PM - March 3, 2016 by Steve_OSThe MLB The Show 16 Twitch stream has begun, post your thoughts here!
For those that miss out, we will update this post with the archive, when it has completed.
UPDATE: Here is the archive.
MLB The Show 16 Videos
Member Comments
I gave examples of how picking between a 40 HR guy and a 45 HR guy is not the same as picking between 75 Power and 74 Power. The result variance has zero to do with this. You literally get a bigger PCI and a better chance with the higher rated guy. That's absolute, it is wrong and illogical to pick the lower Power guy all else equal if you need a home run. I don't see the argument. I'm done replying because I already made my point successfully about why the 40 HR guy might be a better choice. His current Power vs L rating (The only thing that matters) could be higher than the 45 HR guy. Because he may have less ABs, gotten 30 of his HRs more recently by coming into the game hot leading to a higher Current Power rating while the 45 HR guy started the season hot and has been cooling off leading to a lower Current Power rating.
You would not pick the player with the better avg or HR or steals because those numbers do not directly correlate to performance they are just guidelines. Whereas current rating that we see now directly relates. The baserunner on second is my perfect example. There is absolutely never a scenario when picking a 66 speed guy over a 67 speed guy makes sense. There is no variance in getting from 2nd base to home on a hit to the outfield. The 67 speed player gives you the best chance. Now if you don't have access to their Speed rating you have to decide based on what you know from playing with them and from their statistics. You are ignoring the difference between being able to see the players Current Ratings and their statistics. Statistics have a lag in them if you will, and are not absolutes like Current Ratings are. Two players batting .270 are not equal. Say you are playing in June, Player A got 30 of his hits in April while slumping the past 4 weeks while Player B started the season slow but got 30 of his hits in the last 4 weeks. Who do you go with when you need a walk off hit? Well even that information is not enough because you don't know what Contact ratings they started the season with. on top of the fact that ratings are dynamic month to month. So who has the higher Current Contact rating? You stop judging players on ratings and start judging them on what you know about them. And that is when you are one step closer to baseball nirvana.
There is so much more to think about when you aren't looking at a watered down numeric rating that makes the call for you. Static gameplay is boring and stale. The future is in emergent, dynamic gameplay. That is why traits are so big in other sports games. I think baseball is harder to bring traits into the gameplay but hiding the ratings to me is the answer. I love small ball, the minor decisions a manager has to make each game to steer his team toward victory. Shift or no shift, defensive sub or not, pinch hitter/pinch runner, play the infield in, etc.. I want to feel the weight of the decision for myself. Displaying ratings robs you of that experience. Maybe it's something you have to try before buying into I just don't see in my mind how this wouldn't be a positive thing. I'm not sure what you are arguing against because you would never have to play this way, but if you woke up one day and thought "You know what my whole life I've been playing videogame baseball instead of sim baseball today I want to do things different" You could turn on your sparkling PS4 and do just that.
Not only does statistics based decisions make the game more realistic, but it also promotes the spirit of the game. When you are choosing a pinch hitter you get to do it the same way as a real life manager, through your knowledge of that player and your experiences with him. Your 'feel' for the player. You will become more attached to your players on your team and it will guide your decisions. Instead of currently where when you build a team you looking at their ratings and trade accordingly to bolster your team, you would have a total different experience to team building. GMs don't look at overalls.
I'm not wishing to be critical towards the devs in any way because the truth is no sports game has done this. Before The Show 16 it wouldn't have even been possible or enjoyable, but now that they implemented career stats and stat based progression it seems like a natural fit. And baseball is the perfect sport for this to do it with. It is actually possible for the first time in The Show to not have to look at the player's Ratings because we have all the information we need at our fingertips inside the game. I'd be honored to have this idea stolen from me for the future generations of The Show players to get to live my dream of total immersion. The only thing missing is sunflower seeds. Maybe Playstation VR will add a taste sensor add-on and I can die a happy man?
You would not pick the player with the better avg or HR or steals because those numbers do not directly correlate to performance they are just guidelines. Whereas current rating that we see now directly relates. The baserunner on second is my perfect example. There is absolutely never a scenario when picking a 66 speed guy over a 67 speed guy makes sense. There is no variance in getting from 2nd base to home on a hit to the outfield. The 67 speed player gives you the best chance. Now if you don't have access to their Speed rating you have to decide based on what you know from playing with them and from their statistics. You are ignoring the difference between being able to see the players Current Ratings and their statistics. Statistics have a lag in them if you will, and are not absolutes like Current Ratings are. Two players batting .270 are not equal. Say you are playing in June, Player A got 30 of his hits in April while slumping the past 4 weeks while Player B started the season slow but got 30 of his hits in the last 4 weeks. Who do you go with when you need a walk off hit? Well even that information is not enough because you don't know what Contact ratings they started the season with. on top of the fact that ratings are dynamic month to month. So who has the higher Current Contact rating? You stop judging players on ratings and start judging them on what you know about them. And that is when you are one step closer to baseball nirvana.
There is so much more to think about when you aren't looking at a watered down numeric rating that makes the call for you. Static gameplay is boring and stale. The future is in emergent, dynamic gameplay. That is why traits are so big in other sports games. I think baseball is harder to bring traits into the gameplay but hiding the ratings to me is the answer. I love small ball, the minor decisions a manager has to make each game to steer his team toward victory. Shift or no shift, defensive sub or not, pinch hitter/pinch runner, play the infield in, etc.. I want to feel the weight of the decision for myself. Displaying ratings robs you of that experience. Maybe it's something you have to try before buying into I just don't see in my mind how this wouldn't be a positive thing. I'm not sure what you are arguing against because you would never have to play this way, but if you woke up one day and thought "You know what my whole life I've been playing videogame baseball instead of sim baseball today I want to do things different" You could turn on your sparkling PS4 and do just that.
Not only does statistics based decisions make the game more realistic, but it also promotes the spirit of the game. When you are choosing a pinch hitter you get to do it the same way as a real life manager, through your knowledge of that player and your experiences with him. Your 'feel' for the player. You will become more attached to your players on your team and it will guide your decisions. Instead of currently where when you build a team you looking at their ratings and trade accordingly to bolster your team, you would have a total different experience to team building. GMs don't look at overalls.
I'm not wishing to be critical towards the devs in any way because the truth is no sports game has done this. Before The Show 16 it wouldn't have even been possible or enjoyable, but now that they implemented career stats and stat based progression it seems like a natural fit. And baseball is the perfect sport for this to do it with. It is actually possible for the first time in The Show to not have to look at the player's Ratings because we have all the information we need at our fingertips inside the game. I'd be honored to have this idea stolen from me for the future generations of The Show players to get to live my dream of total immersion. The only thing missing is sunflower seeds. Maybe Playstation VR will add a taste sensor add-on and I can die a happy man?
# 342
TattooedEvil @ 03/05/16 02:51 AM
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sorry but this is so false. Who's to say u hit better with the 97 power guy? There's literally some 60 contact guys that i'll hit .320 and 88 contact guys where i cant break .250. I've also only broke 40 HRs with one player (Brandon Belt) and had 90+ power guys where i cant hit 25+....theres just some guys u cant hit with so why would i want to hit with the 95con 90power guy when i hit better with a certain 70/55 guy? its all in who u hit well with.
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If you are controlling the in-game player, there may be certain factors (even weird things like batting stance, how comfortable/pressed you feel with players you feel attachment to) that affect how well you hit with the guy, but that's basically on you, and you are being the factor. When the player is controlled by CPU, it mostly becomes about attributes.
This is even more so when games are simmed (where some of the attributes that provide more varied characters to players don't factor in, like individual pitch attributes).
Just caught the archive and I have to ask: is performance progression broken again already?
A guy losing 10 pts of ability in a single year while being mid-20s (in a single category but still...) seems already a little imbalanced. Same with gaining 10pts in a category.
Remember when we were scolded for wanting to edit potential and were told that it would mess up the game in future years by causing unbalanced rosters? How is this different and how ironic is it that we now require editable potential just to keep it reasonably playable?
A guy losing 10 pts of ability in a single year while being mid-20s (in a single category but still...) seems already a little imbalanced. Same with gaining 10pts in a category.
Remember when we were scolded for wanting to edit potential and were told that it would mess up the game in future years by causing unbalanced rosters? How is this different and how ironic is it that we now require editable potential just to keep it reasonably playable?
# 345
geisterhome @ 03/05/16 06:17 AM
First I was kind of laughing about the children playing card games like dd and ut but now it seems like those modes are killing the old fashioned way of sports games I like...
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# 346
Unlucky 13 @ 03/05/16 08:02 AM
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I've had franchises where a 75-80 OVR player ends up being the superstar MVP of my team and not the 90+ OVR guys. Another factor that I'm not sure I've discussed here before is my belief that in some cases, the CPU will pitch higher rated batters differently than lower rated ones. The lower rated batter ends up getting better pitches to hit, and ends up having the better season.
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People are looking for too much complexity within the game. We don't get to see training or coaching or nutrition or even politics. Statistics is all we got and like I said before this game is all about projections, like it or not...
# 349
Lovesports @ 03/05/16 09:55 AM
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# 350
BlueJays09 @ 03/05/16 09:57 AM
I sometimes choose stats to determine who I use, sometimes ratings. For example: Spring Training is about half way through for me. I have played every game. I signed Pedro Alvarez hoping he would backup 1B/3B/DH, but during ST so far he is batting .147 with 0 HR. His contact/power vs. RHP is 57/84 I think. Dominguez who is around 51/54 contact/power is hitting .380 with 5 HR including a 2-HR game last game out. He is wayyyy out performing Pedro. It is looking like Dominguez or Smoak who is hitting .250 with 3HR might take a bench role and Pedro is heading to AAA until I need him. Thats just an example where a lesser rated player is doing better for me so I will likely be awarding him with a bench role.
# 351
HustlinOwl @ 03/05/16 10:50 AM
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http://www.operationsports.com/forum...ball-game.html
# 352
Impetuous65 @ 03/05/16 11:24 AM
Good info, I just wish they would have played an inning or two with Player Morale changes and see how he's affected. I would have like to see Donaldson at bat or two happy, sad, or statisfied.
My ideal gameplay demonstration would be able too see a player
1. Show him out of position
2. Morale low
3. and in the bottom of the order
and then show him at his best.
I wish they would have demoed that so we could see how these gameplay elemnts co-exist with oneanother.
Franchise looks good too me, I like the additions and improvements. Managing your roster will be fun.
My ideal gameplay demonstration would be able too see a player
1. Show him out of position
2. Morale low
3. and in the bottom of the order
and then show him at his best.
I wish they would have demoed that so we could see how these gameplay elemnts co-exist with oneanother.
Franchise looks good too me, I like the additions and improvements. Managing your roster will be fun.
So, if I understand correctly, the enhanced stat tracking is now on the PS3. I find that to be interesting given that it was explained on multiple occasions that the PS3 was maxed out, and there was no space to add additional stat tracking. It was said, when people were calling for more stats on the PS3. It was explicitly stated that the PS3 was maxed out and more stat tracking was not possible.
I know I keep harping on stat tracking, but I don't care. There's so much work that remains to be done, even with the latest enhancements. Until we see stat tracking akin to what I can find on, say, ESPN.com, I will be wanting more.
By that I mean:
1. Sortable team stats
2. Player card with game log, breaking down stats from all games played in the current season (I would expect this to be reset each year in franchise, I don't expect this history to be maintained across seasons)
3. Filters for situational statistics (vs. specific team, home, road, vs. RHP, vs. LHP, by month, pre/post all star break)
4. Tracking awards won historically and having this information available on the player card (for individual awards) and having a "history" section in Franchise mode where you can see historical standings and award winners
5. Robust box scores akin to what you can find on any website (I don't expect this to be carried over across seasons)
I've said multiple times, there are no technical limitations to this, it is simply a matter of available dev resources and prioritization. I don't expect any of this to be prioritized, given the limited dev resources available and the end goal of maximizing sales.
To me, this is the main problem with console sports gaming. The target market is more casual and will never care about this stuff. As long as the dev team remains prohibitively small, and maximum profit remains the end goal, these things will be moved down the list in a hurry.
I'd love to see a game with no agenda besides to make the most authentic, in-depth, true-to-life franchise mode experience as is humanly possible. But given the state of video games and the business, I don't think it's going to happen any time soon.
Instead we can expect more fluff and gimmicks with card collecting and game modes that provide an arcade/RPG-like experience.
I know I keep harping on stat tracking, but I don't care. There's so much work that remains to be done, even with the latest enhancements. Until we see stat tracking akin to what I can find on, say, ESPN.com, I will be wanting more.
By that I mean:
1. Sortable team stats
2. Player card with game log, breaking down stats from all games played in the current season (I would expect this to be reset each year in franchise, I don't expect this history to be maintained across seasons)
3. Filters for situational statistics (vs. specific team, home, road, vs. RHP, vs. LHP, by month, pre/post all star break)
4. Tracking awards won historically and having this information available on the player card (for individual awards) and having a "history" section in Franchise mode where you can see historical standings and award winners
5. Robust box scores akin to what you can find on any website (I don't expect this to be carried over across seasons)
I've said multiple times, there are no technical limitations to this, it is simply a matter of available dev resources and prioritization. I don't expect any of this to be prioritized, given the limited dev resources available and the end goal of maximizing sales.
To me, this is the main problem with console sports gaming. The target market is more casual and will never care about this stuff. As long as the dev team remains prohibitively small, and maximum profit remains the end goal, these things will be moved down the list in a hurry.
I'd love to see a game with no agenda besides to make the most authentic, in-depth, true-to-life franchise mode experience as is humanly possible. But given the state of video games and the business, I don't think it's going to happen any time soon.
Instead we can expect more fluff and gimmicks with card collecting and game modes that provide an arcade/RPG-like experience.
Guys, look at Madden, or most of all FIFA, and tell me that The Shows franchise is getting ignored.
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# 356
TheWarmWind @ 03/05/16 11:36 AM
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Also I don't think thousands of new animations, human ik, closed roof stadiums, player morale, precision input engine, presentation and stat tracking collaboration, enhanced progression and regression, improved path to balls, tweaked trade logic, tweaked player stamina and more are fluff additions, especially to franchise. The Show is about more than just the numbers. If that's all you care about, there is always OOTP.
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That said, you seem to have missed my point. I'm not claiming that nothing was done to the game. I am acknowledging the significant work that remains to be done with stat tracking to get it to where it could be, and frankly, where I feel it needs to be for a sim-focused baseball game.
I'm certainly not complaining about the stat tracking additions for this year - much better than nothing. But it's an opportunity to point out how much more needs to be (and can be) done with it.
I don't think it's very constructive or reasonable to try and deny my opinion by pointing out all the other things that were done. Yes, lots was done. But more can be done, and I'm going to keep advocating for it.
# 358
TheWarmWind @ 03/05/16 12:03 PM
Drew, You're allowed your opinion on what is good or bad about the game, but dismissing the work outside of stats enhancements (including DD) as gimmicks is just not going to fly.
I hate DD (or any other mode online), but it's a well constructed and thought out mode, and it's here to stay, yes because it's profitable, but it's profitable because people love it. Yes, even hardcore baseball fans.
Also, claiming that SDS should just hire more people in order to get better stat tracking in the game is a flawed argument. The larger the company gets, the more diluted the vision gets. More inefficiencies crop up, and the need for a more centralized management system becomes greater. Soon enough, ALL that matters is profit, and the small voices in the company don't matter any more.
I am willing to bet A LOT that the ONLY reason why stats got a significant upgrade this year is BECAUSE SDS is such a small, passionate group, not in spite of it. They listened to the OS community and worked hard and delivered. One more hiring may bring us even more of that, but it also could take us one step further away.
I hate DD (or any other mode online), but it's a well constructed and thought out mode, and it's here to stay, yes because it's profitable, but it's profitable because people love it. Yes, even hardcore baseball fans.
Also, claiming that SDS should just hire more people in order to get better stat tracking in the game is a flawed argument. The larger the company gets, the more diluted the vision gets. More inefficiencies crop up, and the need for a more centralized management system becomes greater. Soon enough, ALL that matters is profit, and the small voices in the company don't matter any more.
I am willing to bet A LOT that the ONLY reason why stats got a significant upgrade this year is BECAUSE SDS is such a small, passionate group, not in spite of it. They listened to the OS community and worked hard and delivered. One more hiring may bring us even more of that, but it also could take us one step further away.
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This forum is for discussion which is why the 'play OOTP' if you want stat tracking is getting old.
# 360
WaitTilNextYear @ 03/05/16 12:33 PM
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The derivation also goes both ways. If you are saying that *expected* results can be fairly accurately derived from in-game attributes, then the same can be said about reverse engineering the in-game attributes and them being fairly accurately derived from the *expected* (or actual) results. Maybe one approach is more interesting or seems more mysterious to some people, but it is basically the same approach where you are relying on quantitative data provided by the game that hints at the true abilities of a player in order to make decisions.
The variance that links the rating to the result, whether in a sim or played game, and the interplay of different attributes/factors to muddy the waters (I don't even think the originator of the "it's a no brainer to pick the higher power rating but not necessarily the guy with the most HRs" theory would reduce the likelihood of a HR to a single rating), is the whole issue. The variance being large enough to give us a range of different outcomes marginalizes any advantage we gain from discovering, as mentioned in your stats mini-lecture, the "true" population mean for free.
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Whether you are looking at ratings or at the stats that were produced as a function of said ratings, you have basically the same level of predictive power. If you are arguing that the ratings are too deterministic as to what future outcomes will be (always choose a 98 OVR over a 97 OVR etc..) then I can just as easily argue that a 40 HR player will always be more successful than a 35 HR player in hitting a homer when you need it. If the single ratings are that strictly tied to results and outcomes, then you can't uncouple the 2 as you are trying to do here by saying using one approach to decide how to manage is fundamentally a different ballgame than the other. Your hypothetical 40-HR player would definitely have the higher POW attribute and you'd be enjoying the results of that massive PCI.
Whether "what you know about the player" is 67 CON or that he hit .286 last season (which is based on said ratings) or that your scout says he's a plus contact hitter, you have similar predictive power about what will happen in his next AB.
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