Madden NFL 13 News Post

Run/Pass Commit In Madden NFL 13 - Make it More Realistic

11:36 AM - June 11, 2012 by LBzrule

In episode 230 of Madden Daily, Sgibs revealed that run/pass commit is in Madden 13. Check the video out here:

Also I've already submitted this to the appropriate folks at EA. But this is where the community comes in. If they don't see a big reaction they are not going to address it. So you guys need to chime in. I don't want the Run/Pass Commit in Madden 13 to be like NCAA which is an all or nothing affair and which also does not focus on gap control/force/containment. To me this is EA's chance right here to do something really great. To see run/pass commit in action in Madden 13 see this video: Browns vs Seahawks.

7:18 in this video you see run commit left. I don't like it like this. I don't like the complete nullification of the defensive play called and having everyone sell out. Here is what I sent to the devs.
Can you guys make the following tweaks:

1. The run commit only activates against run plays. This way it operates more like a run fit, which is more realistic than having complete sell outs against the run and plays into their read and react defense theme. Allow Play Recognition to govern whether guys bite on Play Action.

2. When committing left or right, edge defenders; DE's and 3-4 OLB should step up the field and set the edge.

3. All other defenders in the front seven, with the exception of the backside DE or OLB, should simply attack the next gap over.

4. Backside DE/OLB should step up field first as if he is looking for boot action or reverse, then trail the play.

So for the 3-4 for instance you would have something like this

In the above diagram you have the defense in the base 3-4 with the DE's in 5 and the NT head up center. As the diagram shows, all the guys are going to do is hit the next gap over. So if I go run commit right then the DLine should look like this from left to right. B A C. RDE takes backside B gap; NT takes right side A gap; LDE takes right side C gap. RILB has backside A gap, and LILB has front side B gap. Edge players step up and set on the right side; back side player steps into the back field checking for backside boot, reverse and playing cutback. So that would actually look like the following:

Notice the NT LDE and RDE. Based on their alignment they are only going to fire to the next gap over. Also whether the offense runs right or left, there will always be a backside player.

Let's take some other examples from the 4-3 Stack and Over

4-3 Stack

Run commit left here (might be different since the direction is based on looking at the screen and this diagram is at the back of the defense, but you should get the picture)would have Duckett/Seawright firing to C, Jospeh firing to A, Strahan stepping up field to set edge, Osi stepping up field backside looking for boot, reverse, if neither are there trail the play down the line. Pierce has left A then scrape, Arrington left B then scrape (I only advocate this for Madden since all they can probably do is get guys to fire to the next gap over. In real life Duckett Seawright would have B and Arrington would have C) Emmons backside B then scrape.

4-3 Over

Let's go run commit to the right from the backside of the defense. Strahan, backside contain player looking for boot, reverse and then just trailing play; Joseph to A; Duckett/Seawright to B; Osi Fire to C. Arrington checks C; Pierce Check A; In Madden Emmons would be on the line of scrimmage so, Fire up field and set edge.

I would also hope it is clear that run commit does not automatically mean that I stop the run even if I have the "right" fit call. It should mean a great deal given certain offensive plays. For tosses it should work great if I have the right call. But against a wide zone, it should be less automatic because if the linebackers run outta there too quick, cutback lanes should be there, especially if the back side guy over pursues.

This is very important. Please do not have the defenders just arbitrarily running right and left. Have them hit gaps, step up and set the edge, play backside contain, pursuit. This is a chance to do something really nice for run defense IMO.

Pass commit. Can this be used to change the rush angles and engage points of the DE's/3-4 OLB's with the OT's. Can we get the engage point much deeper and closer to the Qb as he is dropping?

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# 101 GuideMe1 @ 06/14/12 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jyoung


	All of these features need to be taken out of the NCAA series: --Run/pass commit -- Jump the snap -- Telling the CPU to automatically attempt ball strips on every tackle These are all just unfun, gimmicky gameplay mechanics that people abuse like crazy online, to the point that it ruins the head-to-head online play for NCAA. The ratings should determine how players react on the field, not some cheesy feature that overrides all the ratings and turns everyone on the field into supermen.

I absolutely couldn't have said it better! EA should seriously take a look at the drastic decline in online head-2-head matches since they've added this gimmick glitch.

# 102 LBzrule @ 06/19/12 11:55 AM

Revisiting this thread right now. After having looked over a great deal of the E3 videos for Madden 13 one thing I notice and I know the reasoning will be that it is on Pro mode and that might be good reasoning. I'm just going based on Madden 10 when I went to Tiburon it was easy to run the football to the outside in the alpha build. We played on Pro then as well. When the game was released Strong Close Off Tackle and Toss were in full force. I just don't find it coincidental that it is easy to get to the outside in the alpha videos for Madden 13. Going back to my initial post if they would actually place run defensive principles in place then this would not be a huge burden and you would not have to sell out your defense in an attempt to deal with this stuff. I'm not saying it will be a problem, but based on recent history, I'm going to take into consideration that it might be.

# 103 Allpro1414 @ 06/21/12 08:11 AM

Are you guys serious this feature has been in NCAA for the longest this isnt news.

# 104 LBzrule @ 06/21/12 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allpro1414


	Are you guys serious this feature has been in NCAA for the longest this isnt news.

It is news for Madden this year and what I described in the first post is in neither NCAA or Madden.

# 105 speedy9386 @ 06/21/12 08:35 AM

Didn't Madden used to have this?

# 106 LBzrule @ 06/21/12 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedy9386


	Didn't Madden used to have this?

Run commit yes. They just need to get fundamental principles of run defense in instead of relying on gimmicky things like this, which is what the thread is about. I got another one going up today on another topic that is interesting.

# 107 shttymcgee @ 06/21/12 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	In episode 230 of Madden Daily, Sgibs revealed that run/pass commit is in Madden 13. Check the video out here: Also I've already submitted this to the appropriate folks at EA. But this is where the community comes in. If they don't see a big reaction they are not going to address it. So you guys need to chime in. I don't want the Run/Pass Commit in Madden 13 to be like NCAA which is an all or nothing affair and which also does not focus on gap control/force/containment. To me this is EA's chance right here to do something really great. To see run/pass commit in action in Madden 13 see this video: Browns vs Seahawks. 7:18 in this video you see run commit left. I don't like it like this. I don't like the complete nullification of the defensive play called and having everyone sell out. Here is what I sent to the devs. Can you guys make the following tweaks: 1. The run commit only activates against run plays. This way it operates more like a run fit, which is more realistic than having complete sell outs against the run and plays into their read and react defense theme. Allow Play Recognition to govern whether guys bite on Play Action. 2. When committing left or right, edge defenders; DE's and 3-4 OLB should step up the field and set the edge. 3. All other defenders in the front seven, with the exception of the backside DE or OLB, should simply attack the next gap over. 4. Backside DE/OLB should step up field first as if he is looking for boot action or reverse, then trail the play. So for the 3-4 for instance you would have something like this In the above diagram you have the defense in the base 3-4 with the DE's in 5 and the NT head up center. As the diagram shows, all the guys are going to do is hit the next gap over. So if I go run commit right then the DLine should look like this from left to right. B A C. RDE takes backside B gap; NT takes right side A gap; LDE takes right side C gap. RILB has backside A gap, and LILB has front side B gap. Edge players step up and set on the right side; back side player steps into the back field checking for backside boot, reverse and playing cutback. So that would actually look like the following: Notice the NT LDE and RDE. Based on their alignment they are only going to fire to the next gap over. Also whether the offense runs right or left, there will always be a backside player. Let's take some other examples from the 4-3 Stack and Over 4-3 Stack Run commit left here (might be different since the direction is based on looking at the screen and this diagram is at the back of the defense, but you should get the picture)would have Duckett/Seawright firing to C, Jospeh firing to A, Strahan stepping up field to set edge, Osi stepping up field backside looking for boot, reverse, if neither are there trail the play down the line. Pierce has left A then scrape, Arrington left B then scrape (I only advocate this for Madden since all they can probably do is get guys to fire to the next gap over. In real life Duckett Seawright would have B and Arrington would have C) Emmons backside B then scrape. 4-3 Over Let's go run commit to the right from the backside of the defense. Strahan, backside contain player looking for boot, reverse and then just trailing play; Joseph to A; Duckett/Seawright to B; Osi Fire to C. Arrington checks C; Pierce Check A; In Madden Emmons would be on the line of scrimmage so, Fire up field and set edge. I would also hope it is clear that run commit does not automatically mean that I stop the run even if I have the "right" fit call. It should mean a great deal given certain offensive plays. For tosses it should work great if I have the right call. But against a wide zone, it should be less automatic because if the linebackers run outta there too quick, cutback lanes should be there, especially if the back side guy over pursues. This is very important. Please do not have the defenders just arbitrarily running right and left. Have them hit gaps, step up and set the edge, play backside contain, pursuit. This is a chance to do something really nice for run defense IMO. Pass commit. Can this be used to change the rush angles and engage points of the DE's/3-4 OLB's with the OT's. Can we get the engage point much deeper and closer to the Qb as he is dropping?

Why should the 2 edge DL/LB be the one's to "set the edge?" They are not necessarily the force defenders just because they're lined up as the EMOLS. The force players are determined by the coverage, not the front (which is exactly why i don't like the tiered playcalling idea/method).

If the edge rusher is not the force player, he should be involved in the slant.

# 108 LBzrule @ 06/21/12 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shttymcgee


	Why should the 2 edge DL/LB be the one's to "set the edge?" They are not necessarily the force defenders just because they're lined up as the EMOLS. The force players are determined by the coverage, not the front (which is exactly why i don't like the tiered playcalling idea/method). If the edge rusher is not the force player, he should be involved in the slant.

Mcgee, long time. Let me say this. You are right. The coverage does determine the force player. I don't have confidence that they or anyone else can write that. So to make it basic, I chose the front as the entity to set the edge. Initially when I wrote the thread I had the edge guys slanting then rethought it and said I'm not for sure they would be able to write that.

# 109 brza37 @ 06/21/12 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jyoung


	All of these features need to be taken out of the NCAA series: --Run/pass commit -- Jump the snap -- Telling the CPU to automatically attempt ball strips on every tackle These are all just unfun, gimmicky gameplay mechanics that people abuse like crazy online, to the point that it ruins the head-to-head online play for NCAA. The ratings should determine how players react on the field, not some cheesy feature that overrides all the ratings and turns everyone on the field into supermen.

I can't believe they added this to Madden. Run/Pass commit is one of the most unsim features in NCAA and is pretty much banned from all sim online dynasties.

I think Tiburon did so much moving in the right direction with Madden 13 but this is gonna cause some headaches in my online connected career. Why did they have to go there? That clip of Run Commit looked like Tecmo Bowl, lol.

# 110 KBLover @ 06/21/12 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shttymcgee


	Why should the 2 edge DL/LB be the one's to "set the edge?" They are not necessarily the force defenders just because they're lined up as the EMOLS. The force players are determined by the coverage, not the front (which is exactly why i don't like the tiered playcalling idea/method). If the edge rusher is not the force player, he should be involved in the slant.

Why does that make tiered playcalling a bad idea?

If coverage determines behavior of the front - then have it call coverage first, then then the front, and then the front players take their assignments from the coverage called, and you can adjust from there.

But what if I do want the edge rusher to be the force player, even in the coverage that normally dictates otherwise? Say I want to take a gamble, etc?

I should have that option too as a play call.

# 111 Senator Palmer @ 06/21/12 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brza37


	I can't believe they added this to Madden. Run/Pass commit is one of the most unsim features in NCAA and is pretty much banned from all sim online dynasties. I think Tiburon did so much moving in the right direction with Madden 13 but this is gonna cause some headaches in my online connected career. Why did they have to go there? That clip of Run Commit looked like Tecmo Bowl, lol.

Because run/pass commit is their idea of "making defense fun" instead of adding another layer of strategy and realism.

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/a...n-defense.aspx

Quote:


	"They are doing big things this year," he said. "They're making big changes. Those are big changes that are going to break a lot of stuff, and they know that. What we're after is a better defense that's more fun to play."

# 112 shttymcgee @ 06/21/12 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	Mcgee, long time. Let me say this. You are right. The coverage does determine the force player. I don't have confidence that they or anyone else can write that. So to make it basic, I chose the front as the entity to set the edge. Initially when I wrote the thread I had the edge guys slanting then rethought it and said I'm not for sure they would be able to write that.

I don't know very much about (anything) about how the programming works, but I would think that this is akin to the way the defense already reacts in the game: if pass-do (a), if run-do (b)

That's really all it is; Cover 3 (sky) one safety is the force player to his side, the OLB is the force player to the other side. If it's pass, they get to the flats, if it's run, they play force/reverse/boot contain.

I think the complicated part of programming the defense involves the interior run fits; good defense isn't just assigned gap control. If you assign gaps to players, what happens when the offense adds a gap (isolation/1 back power) or more than just 1 gap (counters, 2 back powers, etc)

# 113 shttymcgee @ 06/21/12 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brza37


	I can't believe they added this to Madden. Run/Pass commit is one of the most unsim features in NCAA and is pretty much banned from all sim online dynasties. I think Tiburon did so much moving in the right direction with Madden 13 but this is gonna cause some headaches in my online connected career. Why did they have to go there? That clip of Run Commit looked like Tecmo Bowl, lol.

I think pass commit should definitely be in. DL should get up the field as fast as possible, LB's should hesitate or get straight into their drops.

As for run-commit, I am undecided. It just seems like it's a little too all or nothing and it is way to effective when you guess right. Maybe the best way to implement it would be to have it available only in certain situations; goalline, 3rd/4th and 1, etc. At the highest levels of football, the defense has the advantage in extreme run-heavy situations, just pinning your ear's back and getting into gaps is not a realistic "normal-down" strategy/philosphy.

# 114 Senator Palmer @ 06/21/12 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shttymcgee


	I don't know very much about (anything) about how the programming works, but I would think that this is akin to the way the defense already reacts in the game: if pass-do (a), if run-do (b) That's really all it is; Cover 3 (sky) one safety is the force player to his side, the OLB is the force player to the other side. If it's pass, they get to the flats, if it's run, they play force/reverse/boot contain. I think the complicated part of programming the defense involves the interior run fits; good defense isn't just assigned gap control. If you assign gaps to players, what happens when the offense adds a gap (isolation/1 back power) or more than just 1 gap (counters, 2 back powers, etc)

I tried to get a developer to tell me how the assignments work, but the only thing he could confirm to me is that there are no gap assignments presently in the game. It sounds like you're saying that even if they were it wouldn't necessarily solve the problem, so could you expand upon the bolded as far as Madden: where it comes up short and where it could be better? Is it a matter of tweaking their present system, or would you like to see something more expansive?

I'm not 100% versed on just how the defense is programmed to react in this game as far as responding to a counter or iso play. I know that when I plug a gap on an ISO as a MLB in cover 3, the backside backer who should be free to scrape and make the play is too often nowhere to be found. Sometimes in replays I see him fiddling about waiting to be blocked, other times he takes a funny angle and takes himself out of the play. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or to the backside defenders.

# 115 shttymcgee @ 06/21/12 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KBLover


	Why does that make tiered playcalling a bad idea? If coverage determines behavior of the front - then have it call coverage first, then then the front, and then the front players take their assignments from the coverage called, and you can adjust from there. But what if I do want the edge rusher to be the force player, even in the coverage that normally dictates otherwise? Say I want to take a gamble, etc? I should have that option too as a play call.

Tiered playcalling is not that bad of an idea selecting your coverage structure than eliminates certain movements up front, but is that what you (anyone who is "pro" tiered playcalling) really wants?

It's not really as simple as saying the edge player and the flat player both play force; you can't really have two of those things (I know you have experience coaching). The problem is with the specific techniques involved when defending the run and how that will implemented in-game.

I don't really think that you should have the option do things that are just flat-out fundamentally incorrect (even though the game botches this on its own on a lot of occasions). I don't think that option would make sense to have in a football simulation, the same way i don't think you should be able to pull your goalie in normal situations in a hockey simulation.

# 116 shttymcgee @ 06/21/12 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senator Palmer


	I tried to get a developer to tell me how the assignments work, but the only thing he could confirm to me is that there are no gap assignments presently in the game. It sounds like you're saying that even if they were it wouldn't necessarily solve the problem, so could you expand upon the bolded as far as Madden: where it comes up short and where it could be better? Is it a matter of tweaking their present system, or would you like to see something more expansive? I'm not 100% versed on just how the defense is programmed to react in this game as far as responding to a counter or iso play. I know that when I plug a gap on an ISO as a MLB in cover 3, the backside backer who should be free to scrape and make the play is too often nowhere to be found. Sometimes in replays I see him fiddling about waiting to be blocked, other times he takes a funny angle and takes himself out of the play. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or to the backside defenders.

It's such a complex issue; I know that I am going to doo a poor job of explaining, but I'll try anyway...

It seems to me, that the Madden defenders are programmed to defend/remain in a certain area of the field until the ball reaches a predetermined point, then all defenders seem to try to take a straight line approach to the ball (i haven't really watched many of the 13 videos, so maybe this isn't true anymore). I guess that's a pretty decent way of programming it so that it's semi-realistic, but it's a crap shoot as to how realistic it turns out in gameplay and it really depends on the combination of offensive play and defensive play called.

I wish there was some kind of free-hand drawing feature for the forums, but that's a different topic:

.................................................. .R................................................ ....
.................................................. .F................................................ ....
.Z................................................ Q................................................. ...
..........................................Y.T.G.C. G.T..........................................X...
.........................................S..E....N ....E.W.........................................
................................................M. ....B............................................. .
C................................................. .................................................. .C..
........................................SS........ ...........FS..................................... ..

Try to envision an isolation play to the defense's left (i picked a 50 defense because there's less ambiguity on the specific assignments) with the FB leading on MLB. The TE and RT base, the RG dbls the nose and the LG tries to cut-off the Buck LB.

If the defense is running a normal strong-side fire zone, the assignments will play out correctly (Sam off the edge, LE sticks to a-gap, mlb come off the hip of LE into the b-gap. Secondary rotates strong with the SS playing the seam-flat (C-GAP) and the FS rotating to the middle of the field. The BLB rotates strong to play the hole area). In this case, if the MLB takes the lead on with his outside shoulder, the SS will be there to make a play; if the takes it on with his inside shoulder, the ball cuts back to the Buck. If the buck gets cut-off, its a big gain, if not, small gain. This is the way it plays out in madden, because the Buck LB's assigned area is the underneath middle of the field.

But, if the defense is in a weak-rotated cover 3 (sky), there may be problems: The SLB plays force/flats, the MLB plays the hook area to the TE and the SS rotates to the Post. On the other side, the FS rotates down to play the flats and the BLB plays the weak hook, but VS run the BLB should still be scraping to account for the extra gap on the isolation.

In madden, the BLB will step towards his "zone" first and maybe just hang out there until the ball crosses the LOS, which by that point in time would be too late. The MLB takes on the FB, but there's no one else left for the TB, so he has a lane to the 3rd level.

The game doesn't seem to have a clear way of establishing roles/rules for the LB's on runs away from them and that is the main culprit for what you described.

Pursuit is the other problem, which at times can be even worse. Any defensive coach worth anything recognizes that pursuit goes right with getting off blocks and tackling as must-haves for success. The pursuit logic in madden seems to just have defenders chase the ball carrier in the shortest path possible, thus leading to many occasions where defenders are following each other, a fundamental no-no. This can most easily and often be seen in kick game coverage with no indication of spacing or "lanes."

Just youtube team pursuit drills to see proper defensive pursuit in action.

# 117 sportyguyfl31 @ 06/21/12 03:01 PM

Thought Id revist and take another peek at this sucker.

Good discussion!

Pretty much everything that has been said, regarding the concerns the commits create, I agree 100% with.

In my opinion, I dont see EA being able to impliment these things, without making the A.I. controlled defensive players, better then they really are..at the expense of the offensive players.

In NCAA 12, your worst nightmare was running into a serial pass committer who could also play good run defense, with good use of a MLB.

It makes for a impossible game.

Run Commit was simply cartoon-ish.

There really needs to be balance with things like this, and nothing I have seen in EA's history, gives me much confidence that they can strike it.

# 118 KBLover @ 06/21/12 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shttymcgee


	Pursuit is the other problem, which at times can be even worse. Any defensive coach worth anything recognizes that pursuit goes right with getting off blocks and tackling as must-haves for success. The pursuit logic in madden seems to just have defenders chase the ball carrier in the shortest path possible, thus leading to many occasions where defenders are following each other, a fundamental no-no. This can most easily and often be seen in kick game coverage with no indication of spacing or "lanes."

This right here is probably the #2 issue I have with defense in Madden (really could have quoted your whole post).

It drives me up a wall to no end. I have to keep my MLB in a QB spy or Hook Zone just to keep him from doing this. It's ridiculous.

Of course "LB play" in Madden is enough for me to want to chew my arm off sometimes. I guess that comes from being a fan of a 3-4 team and loving linebackers in general.

# 119 shttymcgee @ 06/21/12 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big FN Deal


	So what this all pretty much amounts to is dynamic situational and adaptive AI, right? Having players in Madden initially aligning according to the playcall/play art but then reacting according to the actions and capabilities of the personnel on the field, on each play. So wouldn't these adapted for Madden pretty much remove the need for directly scripting or tying offense to defense?: http://fifasoccerblog.com/blog/fifa-...-intelligence/ http://www.digitaltrends.com/game-tr...ey-iq-trailer/ http://gamerant.com/fifa-13-preview-johnj-153048/

After reading the links, I'd say it's similar, but their is a vast difference between football and hockey/soccer. In the other sports, the defensive unit must stop the ball and at the same time mark potential receivers.

In football, there are two dichotomous defensive schemes: defending the pass vs defending the run. When defending the run, the main goal is to have all 11 defenders attack the ball. The defensive call and the offense's point of attack is what determines each defenders method of attacking the ball.

Because of this, it strikes me as being a much more complex issue than just using adaptive AI to fix pursuit and leverage problems.

However, I can see this definitely being implemented in pass defense. Take Cover 2 for example (safeties splitting the deep coverage into halves of the field, the corners and lb's dividing the underneath zones into five areas). This is the defensive structure, but it must adapt according the wide receiver distribution (however, madden does not). There must be a way of accounting for a go/seam route combination. Either the corner must read the vertical stem of #2 and sink on the outside vertical or the hook defender (olb) must wall and carry the seam route; the safety can't cover both routes. In madden, the defenders stick to their zones as though they are in black and white and the offense (user) has an easy throw to either the seam or the sideline. There are a seemingly infinite number of adjustments that must be made to zone coverages based on formation variations and route dispersion. The kind of AI being implemented in those games could absolutely be a benefit in madden.

# 120 Senator Palmer @ 06/22/12 01:50 AM

Appreciate the response, shtty. Really good stuff. Really great job of breaking the thing down.

Quote:


	The game doesn't seem to have a clear way of establishing roles/rules for the LB's on runs away from them and that is the main culprit for what you described.

So wouldn't programming gap assignments remedy some of this, because the quoted right here is the one thing on defense that has confounded me in Madden 12. I'm never sure how to play certain runs. I know how it's supposed to be played. I know which gaps should be mine, how the pursuit should come, but it always feels like a crap shoot so I'm better off reverting to the Lavar Arrington style of defense as LBz coined it.

You broke down very well what is needed for a fundamentally sound defense beyond just gap assignments, such as pursuit, etc. But wouldn't a gap assignment logic remedy some of this along the front 7, specifically on the runs away?

Just focusing on the linebackers for a moment, I know that in certain schemes and fronts, the gaps move, so wouldn't it make sense to do something simple like giving 2 gaps to the linebackers' run defense logic along with what seems to be the "area" thing that they already have where they hover until the ball gets to a certain point, just so that how they are attacking instead of waiting? Now the WILL backer will know to go from B to playside A on runs away.

On power plays out of an Over front everyone would just move down a gap similar to how LBz described in his first post. The SAM moves playside B to C, the Middle backer will move strong A to playside B, WILL scrapes from weak B to A.

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