Madden NFL 13 News Post

Run/Pass Commit In Madden NFL 13 - Make it More Realistic

11:36 AM - June 11, 2012 by LBzrule

In episode 230 of Madden Daily, Sgibs revealed that run/pass commit is in Madden 13. Check the video out here:

Also I've already submitted this to the appropriate folks at EA. But this is where the community comes in. If they don't see a big reaction they are not going to address it. So you guys need to chime in. I don't want the Run/Pass Commit in Madden 13 to be like NCAA which is an all or nothing affair and which also does not focus on gap control/force/containment. To me this is EA's chance right here to do something really great. To see run/pass commit in action in Madden 13 see this video: Browns vs Seahawks.

7:18 in this video you see run commit left. I don't like it like this. I don't like the complete nullification of the defensive play called and having everyone sell out. Here is what I sent to the devs.
Can you guys make the following tweaks:

1. The run commit only activates against run plays. This way it operates more like a run fit, which is more realistic than having complete sell outs against the run and plays into their read and react defense theme. Allow Play Recognition to govern whether guys bite on Play Action.

2. When committing left or right, edge defenders; DE's and 3-4 OLB should step up the field and set the edge.

3. All other defenders in the front seven, with the exception of the backside DE or OLB, should simply attack the next gap over.

4. Backside DE/OLB should step up field first as if he is looking for boot action or reverse, then trail the play.

So for the 3-4 for instance you would have something like this

In the above diagram you have the defense in the base 3-4 with the DE's in 5 and the NT head up center. As the diagram shows, all the guys are going to do is hit the next gap over. So if I go run commit right then the DLine should look like this from left to right. B A C. RDE takes backside B gap; NT takes right side A gap; LDE takes right side C gap. RILB has backside A gap, and LILB has front side B gap. Edge players step up and set on the right side; back side player steps into the back field checking for backside boot, reverse and playing cutback. So that would actually look like the following:

Notice the NT LDE and RDE. Based on their alignment they are only going to fire to the next gap over. Also whether the offense runs right or left, there will always be a backside player.

Let's take some other examples from the 4-3 Stack and Over

4-3 Stack

Run commit left here (might be different since the direction is based on looking at the screen and this diagram is at the back of the defense, but you should get the picture)would have Duckett/Seawright firing to C, Jospeh firing to A, Strahan stepping up field to set edge, Osi stepping up field backside looking for boot, reverse, if neither are there trail the play down the line. Pierce has left A then scrape, Arrington left B then scrape (I only advocate this for Madden since all they can probably do is get guys to fire to the next gap over. In real life Duckett Seawright would have B and Arrington would have C) Emmons backside B then scrape.

4-3 Over

Let's go run commit to the right from the backside of the defense. Strahan, backside contain player looking for boot, reverse and then just trailing play; Joseph to A; Duckett/Seawright to B; Osi Fire to C. Arrington checks C; Pierce Check A; In Madden Emmons would be on the line of scrimmage so, Fire up field and set edge.

I would also hope it is clear that run commit does not automatically mean that I stop the run even if I have the "right" fit call. It should mean a great deal given certain offensive plays. For tosses it should work great if I have the right call. But against a wide zone, it should be less automatic because if the linebackers run outta there too quick, cutback lanes should be there, especially if the back side guy over pursues.

This is very important. Please do not have the defenders just arbitrarily running right and left. Have them hit gaps, step up and set the edge, play backside contain, pursuit. This is a chance to do something really nice for run defense IMO.

Pass commit. Can this be used to change the rush angles and engage points of the DE's/3-4 OLB's with the OT's. Can we get the engage point much deeper and closer to the Qb as he is dropping?

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Member Comments

# 21 Bootzilla @ 06/11/12 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrant8RDFL


	I kind of like the way they have it and this is why. It is a commitment that the defense is making to stop a play. This is why you can't over use this feature at all, and only use it when you absolutely sure. Like in long yardage situations and long. To make this thing work with better awareness and assignments will only be abused and make everyone use this feature in calling a defense. Thus making players better at calling a defense then what they really are. Calling your defense should be totally about your play calling , and not a commit feature. I like it that it is all or nothing, so this way it can't be abused. By leaving it this way it really makes you hesitant on calling a run commit to any side, because if you guess wrong then your burnt, and bedfast of this many won't use it as much and trust to calling a more balanced run defense. I think they should not touch it and leave it the way it is. In the end you don�t have to use it all, and just call your defense. I would love to play someone who uses it every down. By making it better to the point that the defense is smarter with it will only make things worse, and make bad pay callers better. That to me defeats the purpose of play calling.

I totally agree with your reasoning. I believe the play call itself should cover all of the gap responsibilities and necessary fits as intended and the commits should be used more so as gambles or calculated risks. If its 3rd and short and I want to sell out on a run up the middle and I get play-actioned that's the risk I take. But, if I want to stop that run generally I will have to commit to it either by play call or added emphasis i.e. run commit. Same goes for pass commit. If its 3rd and long and I get screened or drawed, such is life.

Honestly, committing your run defense to any side is risky but, is it doing that much more than crashing your line or linebackers in one direction or another? I really don't know. Since the game itself isn't able to read keys or truly adjust to down and distance I'm fine with the way run/pass commit is implemented; as a tool to sell out in obvious down and distance situations. High risk, high reward. For everything else, the standard play call should suffice.

# 22 LBzrule @ 06/11/12 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K_GUN


	the problem with your philosophy is this...a ton of guys like myself have never played 1 SNAP of organized football (I'm built like Dustin Pedroia)...so i have no idea about the basic principle of football....and quite frankly at the age of 41 dont care...I just want to play a realistic game of football--not an NFL Blitz style of game....so for guys like us....should we not be allowed to play/want to play a game of videogame football?...kinda sounds like it with some of your posts

Everything I said in this thread fits what I just highlighted from your post. You want to play a realistic game of football. So do I. I'm outlining for you how NFL, NCAA and HS defensive coordinators install and call defenses. What's the problem?

# 23 LBzrule @ 06/11/12 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bootzilla


	I totally agree with your reasoning. I believe the play call itself should cover all of the gap responsibilities and necessary fits as intended and the commits should be used more so as gambles or calculated risks. It should but it doesn't. That's the only reason why I started this thread. If it did I would agree with you guys. The play call should do this, but it does not. So in order to have it somewhat mimick what the play call should have I outlined what I did. If its 3rd and short and I want to sell out on a run up the middle and I get play-actioned that's the risk I take. But, if I want to stop that run generally I will have to commit to it either by play call or added emphasis i.e. run commit. Same goes for pass commit. If its 3rd and long and I get screened or drawed, such is life. Honestly, committing your run defense to any side is risky but, is it doing that much more than crashing your line or linebackers in one direction or another? I really don't know. Crashing your line right/left against the run your defenders do not hit the next gap. They are controlled by the OL on where they go and the OL just stands them up in that spot. This is exactly the reason why there is no flow on wide zone run plays. Since the game itself isn't able to read keys or truly adjust to down and distance I'm fine with the way run/pass commit is implemented; as a tool to sell out in obvious down and distance situations. High risk, high reward. For everything else, the standard play call should suffice.

And that's exactly what I think run commit should do. Have your guys make up for the lack of reading keys by giving them some gap responsibility.

# 24 ch46647 @ 06/11/12 04:18 PM

What is the difference between crashing your line right and left and run committing right and left?

# 25 LBzrule @ 06/11/12 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OG_McNabb


	Good post, but I'd really like to know where you got the play diagram program. Is it free?

It's on the web. I'll give credit to the site. Credit to:http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2011...-kyle-williams

for the diagrams and btw, there is an entire article there that will talk about everything discussed in the original post with more diagrams on the Over and 46 fronts.

# 26 LBzrule @ 06/11/12 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ch46647


	What is the difference between crashing your line right and left and run committing right and left?

The difference is huge. Crashing right/left does nothing against the run in Madden. Your DL gets stood up where they line up. No movement. Committing right and left = your DL is detached from the OL and have movement right/left. If we go back to what I highlighted on Zone plays 2k vs Madden:

Notice in the Madden section of the video the DL stands straight up. NO mobility in the blocks. Well it is crash left/right and the DL gets no movement left or right in Madden. It's just get stood up where you are lined up. It does not do a good job of capturing what happens on zone plays or any other outside run plays.

# 27 ch46647 @ 06/11/12 04:32 PM

Ok, nice video. What does the pass commit do in Madden? Does it make the DE's get up field better or just make the secondary more aware?

# 28 Bootzilla @ 06/11/12 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	And that's exactly what I think run commit should do. Have your guys make up for the lack of reading keys by giving them some gap responsibility.

I totally get where you're coming from. It's just in a video game many of the things we would key on based on on tendencies, stances, down and distance, etc. can't be accomplished because the game lacks that level of sophistication. That's why, knowing the inherent shortcomings, I don't mind the run/pass commit (caveat: as long as it isn't overpowering) as presently constituted.

In Madden too often in obvious down and distance DB's are biting on run fakes. If I pass commit I want those suckers playing the pass. I want my DE's going all out. Give up something (the run) to get something (the quarterback).

In Madden your play call generally wasn't enough in short yardage situations. Your defenders would just pitty pat and not sell out vs the run unless you brought linebackers and crashed your d-line. Now I'm not saying every time you run commit and guess right, you should automatically win in those situations. Ratings and such should still matter. But, if I sell out and they hit me with Spider 2 Y Banana that fullback is going to be open in the flat and I'm just going to have to live with it. But, if I don't sell out I'm essentially conceding a couple of yards when they out man me and run power.

# 29 LBzrule @ 06/11/12 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ch46647


	Ok, nice video. What does the pass commit do in Madden? Does it make the DE's get up field better or just make the secondary more aware?

Pass Commit seems to just make the secondary more aware. I think they can expand this to have the DE's have a wider arc rush and a deeper engagement with the tackle in the backfield. They need to because their line calls do not do the job at all.

# 30 LBzrule @ 06/11/12 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big FN Deal


	To chime on this, as soon as I read the OP, I searched for this previous thread. http://www.operationsports.com/forum...post2043466625 I think it's a given that run/pass commit is an unrealistic band-aid to account for a lack of better individual player adaptive AI but so is other stuff. While I definitely feel where LBz is coming from, it would seem impossible to make this fundamentally unrealistic feature, realistic, it would have to be removed. There is no way to artificially make run/pass commit a realistic feature because it should be inherent in the game, when adequately representing fundamental football aspects, imo. So the question is, imo, would we rather have this unrealistic band-aid until something realistic can be added or not? That said, I think the understandable concern is that like with many unrealistic features, it has become so synonymous with Madden-ball and accepted by a majority of gamers, that EA/Tiburon will continue to fail to see the need to change it. Like Bezo and others allude to, the unrealistic fundamental football in Madden is built on a house of cards, adding one fake thing to counter another and if you remove one, the other is completely overpowering, bringing the whole thing crashing down. So I guess run/pass commit is a necessary "evil" until adaptive AI, run fits, gap assignments, engaged player movement, etc can all be addressed too, imo.

The bolded are the only reason why I started the thread Big. I don't like it, but if it is going to be in, give it something that we need in the game from a realistic standpoint although not all of those areas can be covered. But please don't make it arbitrary as it stands now in NCAA. The way it is there is just a complete waste of time IMO.

# 31 rsamms @ 06/11/12 04:46 PM

Just curious lbz. Adembroski has stated on several occasions that he'd like to have you at community day again. I have always loved your posts on defense. Is there a reason you haven't attended?

# 32 OG_McNabb @ 06/11/12 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	It's on the web. I'll give credit to the site. Credit to:http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2011...-kyle-williams for the diagrams and btw, there is an entire article there that will talk about everything discussed in the original post with more diagrams on the Over and 46 fronts.

Thanks........I thought it was something you created.

# 33 Tyrant8RDFL @ 06/11/12 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	I'm going to ask this question. Which defensive coordinator installs and teaches their defense this way? Who makes these kinds of calls? Do guys actually understand what goes into an NFL, NCAA, High School defense on the snap of the football? It is not what you guys are saying. Here is the problem with Madden and just calling a defense, it's exactly what you get when you use this feature as it is right now. Arbitrariness and freelancing. That's not good defensive principles. Second, using this as a part of the play call would actually add what is missing from the game that needs to be there anyway. If you have played 2k this would be still similar to that in play call terms. In 2k you just had tied play calling. In here you would just be calling that stunt right before the snap at the line. You still can make the wrong call and be outmanned on the back side. It's just that gap principles would be in place. Nobody coaches all or nothing defense. And Madden should not be promoting that. Somebody tell me who does that? I don't see how this defeats the purpose of play calling when what is here is actually a part of any NFL defensive snap. Also this is not about abuse. This is about what people say they want, realism. Do you guys want that or not? Or do you want to keep going with EA's all or nothing unrealistic way features work that does not match up to the way Defensive Coordinators install and call defenses?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	I'm going to ask this question. Which defensive coordinator installs and teaches their defense this way? Who makes these kinds of calls? Do guys actually understand what goes into an NFL, NCAA, High School defense on the snap of the football? It is not what you guys are saying. Here is the problem with Madden and just calling a defense, it's exactly what you get when you use this feature as it is right now. Arbitrariness and freelancing. That's not good defensive principles. Second, using this as a part of the play call would actually add what is missing from the game that needs to be there anyway. If you have played 2k this would be still similar to that in play call terms. In 2k you just had tied play calling. In here you would just be calling that stunt right before the snap at the line. You still can make the wrong call and be outmanned on the back side. It's just that gap principles would be in place. Nobody coaches all or nothing defense. And Madden should not be promoting that. Somebody tell me who does that? I don't see how this defeats the purpose of play calling when what is here is actually a part of any NFL defensive snap. Also this is not about abuse. This is about what people say they want, realism. Do you guys want that or not? Or do you want to keep going with EA's all or nothing unrealistic way features work that does not match up to the way Defensive Coordinators install and call defenses?

No coordinator does that. What im just trying to say is that a feature like this should be a HR or a strikeout. In all honesty it should not even be in the game, because of what you stated. No one calls a defense like this. The thing is that it is in the game, so I just feel it needs to stay that way it is, so it does not get abused.

What you layed out was very intelligent, and well thought out, but to me everything should just be in your playcalling period, and not involve any other feature.

This whole commit feature is not accurate at all to the game, but I dont want to see something very nicely layed out implemented into it thus making playcalling not as important.

What you have makes the committ feature way to good, and too much of a aid for those that cant call of defense on their own.

You know the game without question, I just see it from a different prospective. Hopefully you can see where Im coming from. Im not down grading by any means what you presented here. I just dont want this feature utilized alot and the only way that can happen is by leaving it the way it is.

Again what you layed out will make this feature way too good. They should just remove the feature for Madden 14 or patch it out on 13.

# 34 LBzrule @ 06/11/12 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bootzilla


	I totally get where you're coming from. It's just in a video game many of the things we would key on based on on tendencies, stances, down and distance, etc. can't be accomplished because the game lacks that level of sophistication. That's why, knowing the inherent shortcomings, I don't mind the run/pass commit (caveat: as long as it isn't overpowering) as presently constituted. In Madden too often in obvious down and distance DB's are biting on run fakes. If I pass commit I want those suckers playing the pass. I want my DE's going all out. Give up something (the run) to get something (the quarterback). I don't think anything I'm advocating here would go against that. As I said with pass commit they should have the DE's taking a wider arc to the QB and engaging the OT's deeper in the backfield, which would give up the draw, the off tackle. The runs that should be giving up in that type of situation. In Madden your play call generally wasn't enough in short yardage situations. Your defenders would just pitty pat and not sell out vs the run unless you brought linebackers and crashed your d-line. Now I'm not saying every time you run commit and guess right, you should automatically win in those situations. Ratings and such should still matter. But, if I sell out and they hit me with Spider 2 Y Banana that fullback is going to be open in the flat and I'm just going to have to live with it. But, if I don't sell out I'm essentially conceding a couple of yards when they out man me and run power.

Here is the thing, let's hammer out the premise and hidden assumptions here. I'm operating from the standpoint that it is rare that there are sellouts. Secondly, even a sell out is predicated on a read. The sell out is the reaction to the read. What are the premises under which you are operating here? I don't see selling out like it currently is implemented as fundamental defensive football. Secondly, the play calling alone does not deal with the defensive issues in the game. The run commit actually should be the default line crash left or right. Unfortunately that's not how they designed it. If the default crash left or right were like the run commit left or right where the DL was not tied to the OL we would not be having this discussion except for gaps.

# 35 speedy9386 @ 06/11/12 04:52 PM

Is it just me or does it seem like zone blitzes never work in madden?

# 36 LBzrule @ 06/11/12 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsamms


	Just curious lbz. Adembroski has stated on several occasions that he'd like to have you at community day again. I have always loved your posts on defense. Is there a reason you haven't attended?

The CD events have always been the week prior to Spring break and I needed to teach those weeks so that my classes would not lose time. The first time I went it was in May I believe and school was out so I did not have to worry about the conflict.

# 37 LBzrule @ 06/11/12 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OG_McNabb


	Thanks........I thought it was something you created.

I have done some in Power Point. They don't look as good as the diagram though. LOL

# 38 LBzrule @ 06/11/12 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrant8RDFL


	No coordinator does that. What im just trying to say is that a feature like this should be a HR or a strikeout. In all honesty it should not even be in the game, because of what you stated. No one calls a defense like this. The thing is that it is in the game, so I just feel it needs to stay that way it is, so it does not get abused. What you layed out was very intelligent, and well thought out, but to me everything should just be in your playcalling period, and not involve any other feature. This whole commit feature is not accurate at all to the game, but I dont want to see something very nicely layed out implemented into it thus making playcalling not as important. What you have makes the committ feature way to good, and too much of a aid for those that cant call of defense on their own. You know the game without question, I just see it from a different prospective. Hopefully you can see where Im coming from. Im not down grading by any means what you presented here. I just dont want this feature utilized alot and the only way that can happen is by leaving it the way it is. Again what you layed out will make this feature way too good. They should just remove the feature for Madden 14 or patch it out on 13.

Ok here is my question. How would you feel if the crash line left/right were exactly like run commit where the DL was not attached to the OL and the DLinemen hit the next gap over depending on which way you called the crash? I would prefer that actually to what I first typed out. Unfortunately, the crash left/right has no effect on run plays. But if this worked like I'm describing here then there would be no need for run commit IMO. It would simply duplicate what you could do with the crashes. I agree with you and Big. It should not be in the game. But if it is not going to be in the game, at least have the line crashes left and right have guys hitting the next gap over.

# 39 JerzeyReign @ 06/11/12 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KBLover


	I would argue the reverse. Get the technical aspects working, then vary the player's responses/execution based on traits in their DPP and ratings. Get the game "to think these terms" when it's resolving plays and the tendencies would be that much more impacting and meaningful while also allowing players who "play by the book" to execute more correctly as well. Getting the front seven working and playing right would make the tendencies possible. Then when you see someone like Cole "playing 4-3" in a 3-4 scheme, you're compelled to either switch to 4-3, ship Cole off, or try him at 3-4 OLB or just deal with it and try to make it work in your own version of the 3-4. Maybe you'll have a way to make the MLB/Jack work like the 3-4 DE instead, scout bigger OLBs and work your scheme that way, etc. Things like that are possible, imo, only when the foundation of the front seven is in place. It'll also look more like a freelancer in the midst of a team-oriented scheme instead of just yet another example of bad gameplay.

Roger. Thats a good point but see, being an offensive coordinator in real life, I'd immediately want my offensive linemen to recognize that type of player and block him accordingly. We'd probably get into techniques and all that jazz eventually

# 40 LBzrule @ 06/11/12 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedy9386


	Is it just me or does it seem like zone blitzes never work in madden?

Different topic but definitely worthy of discussion. I hope they work better this year without having all the set up jazz. All I know is if NCAA 13 is any indication then there is going to be a huge problem in online play. The demo of that game has blitzes on the level of Madden 08 and I'm not talking about legitimate blitzing either. The Spy Blitz is also in the demo. That's the benefit of playing tournament guys. You pick up the thinking and then when the next game comes out you can test for yourself if the game has progressed and I'm sorry to say NCAA 13, unless they patch and find things fast, GOOD LUCK to those who purchase the game and play online.

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