Run/Pass Commit In Madden NFL 13 - Make it More Realistic

[shttymcgee]

Quote: Originally Posted by Senator Palmer

I tried to get a developer to tell me how the assignments work, but the only thing he could confirm to me is that there are no gap assignments presently in the game. It sounds like you're saying that even if they were it wouldn't necessarily solve the problem, so could you expand upon the bolded as far as Madden: where it comes up short and where it could be better? Is it a matter of tweaking their present system, or would you like to see something more expansive? I'm not 100% versed on just how the defense is programmed to react in this game as far as responding to a counter or iso play. I know that when I plug a gap on an ISO as a MLB in cover 3, the backside backer who should be free to scrape and make the play is too often nowhere to be found. Sometimes in replays I see him fiddling about waiting to be blocked, other times he takes a funny angle and takes himself out of the play. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or to the backside defenders.

It's such a complex issue; I know that I am going to doo a poor job of explaining, but I'll try anyway...

It seems to me, that the Madden defenders are programmed to defend/remain in a certain area of the field until the ball reaches a predetermined point, then all defenders seem to try to take a straight line approach to the ball (i haven't really watched many of the 13 videos, so maybe this isn't true anymore). I guess that's a pretty decent way of programming it so that it's semi-realistic, but it's a crap shoot as to how realistic it turns out in gameplay and it really depends on the combination of offensive play and defensive play called.

I wish there was some kind of free-hand drawing feature for the forums, but that's a different topic:

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Try to envision an isolation play to the defense's left (i picked a 50 defense because there's less ambiguity on the specific assignments) with the FB leading on MLB. The TE and RT base, the RG dbls the nose and the LG tries to cut-off the Buck LB.

If the defense is running a normal strong-side fire zone, the assignments will play out correctly (Sam off the edge, LE sticks to a-gap, mlb come off the hip of LE into the b-gap. Secondary rotates strong with the SS playing the seam-flat (C-GAP) and the FS rotating to the middle of the field. The BLB rotates strong to play the hole area). In this case, if the MLB takes the lead on with his outside shoulder, the SS will be there to make a play; if the takes it on with his inside shoulder, the ball cuts back to the Buck. If the buck gets cut-off, its a big gain, if not, small gain. This is the way it plays out in madden, because the Buck LB's assigned area is the underneath middle of the field.

But, if the defense is in a weak-rotated cover 3 (sky), there may be problems: The SLB plays force/flats, the MLB plays the hook area to the TE and the SS rotates to the Post. On the other side, the FS rotates down to play the flats and the BLB plays the weak hook, but VS run the BLB should still be scraping to account for the extra gap on the isolation.

In madden, the BLB will step towards his "zone" first and maybe just hang out there until the ball crosses the LOS, which by that point in time would be too late. The MLB takes on the FB, but there's no one else left for the TB, so he has a lane to the 3rd level.

The game doesn't seem to have a clear way of establishing roles/rules for the LB's on runs away from them and that is the main culprit for what you described.

Pursuit is the other problem, which at times can be even worse. Any defensive coach worth anything recognizes that pursuit goes right with getting off blocks and tackling as must-haves for success. The pursuit logic in madden seems to just have defenders chase the ball carrier in the shortest path possible, thus leading to many occasions where defenders are following each other, a fundamental no-no. This can most easily and often be seen in kick game coverage with no indication of spacing or "lanes."

Just youtube team pursuit drills to see proper defensive pursuit in action.

[sportyguyfl31]

Thought Id revist and take another peek at this sucker.

Good discussion!

Pretty much everything that has been said, regarding the concerns the commits create, I agree 100% with.

In my opinion, I dont see EA being able to impliment these things, without making the A.I. controlled defensive players, better then they really are..at the expense of the offensive players.

In NCAA 12, your worst nightmare was running into a serial pass committer who could also play good run defense, with good use of a MLB.

It makes for a impossible game.

Run Commit was simply cartoon-ish.

There really needs to be balance with things like this, and nothing I have seen in EA's history, gives me much confidence that they can strike it.

[Big FN Deal]

So what this all pretty much amounts to is dynamic situational and adaptive AI, right? Having players in Madden initially aligning according to the playcall/play art but then reacting according to the actions and capabilities of the personnel on the field, on each play.

So wouldn't these adapted for Madden pretty much remove the need for directly scripting or tying offense to defense?:

http://fifasoccerblog.com/blog/fifa-...-intelligence/

http://www.digitaltrends.com/game-tr...ey-iq-trailer/

http://gamerant.com/fifa-13-preview-johnj-153048/

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

Pursuit is the other problem, which at times can be even worse. Any defensive coach worth anything recognizes that pursuit goes right with getting off blocks and tackling as must-haves for success. The pursuit logic in madden seems to just have defenders chase the ball carrier in the shortest path possible, thus leading to many occasions where defenders are following each other, a fundamental no-no. This can most easily and often be seen in kick game coverage with no indication of spacing or "lanes."

This right here is probably the #2 issue I have with defense in Madden (really could have quoted your whole post).

It drives me up a wall to no end. I have to keep my MLB in a QB spy or Hook Zone just to keep him from doing this. It's ridiculous.

Of course "LB play" in Madden is enough for me to want to chew my arm off sometimes. I guess that comes from being a fan of a 3-4 team and loving linebackers in general.

[shttymcgee]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

So what this all pretty much amounts to is dynamic situational and adaptive AI, right? Having players in Madden initially aligning according to the playcall/play art but then reacting according to the actions and capabilities of the personnel on the field, on each play. So wouldn't these adapted for Madden pretty much remove the need for directly scripting or tying offense to defense?: http://fifasoccerblog.com/blog/fifa-...-intelligence/ http://www.digitaltrends.com/game-tr...ey-iq-trailer/ http://gamerant.com/fifa-13-preview-johnj-153048/

After reading the links, I'd say it's similar, but their is a vast difference between football and hockey/soccer. In the other sports, the defensive unit must stop the ball and at the same time mark potential receivers.

In football, there are two dichotomous defensive schemes: defending the pass vs defending the run. When defending the run, the main goal is to have all 11 defenders attack the ball. The defensive call and the offense's point of attack is what determines each defenders method of attacking the ball.

Because of this, it strikes me as being a much more complex issue than just using adaptive AI to fix pursuit and leverage problems.

However, I can see this definitely being implemented in pass defense. Take Cover 2 for example (safeties splitting the deep coverage into halves of the field, the corners and lb's dividing the underneath zones into five areas). This is the defensive structure, but it must adapt according the wide receiver distribution (however, madden does not). There must be a way of accounting for a go/seam route combination. Either the corner must read the vertical stem of #2 and sink on the outside vertical or the hook defender (olb) must wall and carry the seam route; the safety can't cover both routes. In madden, the defenders stick to their zones as though they are in black and white and the offense (user) has an easy throw to either the seam or the sideline. There are a seemingly infinite number of adjustments that must be made to zone coverages based on formation variations and route dispersion. The kind of AI being implemented in those games could absolutely be a benefit in madden.

[Senator Palmer]

Appreciate the response, shtty. Really good stuff. Really great job of breaking the thing down.

Quote:

The game doesn't seem to have a clear way of establishing roles/rules for the LB's on runs away from them and that is the main culprit for what you described.

So wouldn't programming gap assignments remedy some of this, because the quoted right here is the one thing on defense that has confounded me in Madden 12. I'm never sure how to play certain runs. I know how it's supposed to be played. I know which gaps should be mine, how the pursuit should come, but it always feels like a crap shoot so I'm better off reverting to the Lavar Arrington style of defense as LBz coined it.

You broke down very well what is needed for a fundamentally sound defense beyond just gap assignments, such as pursuit, etc. But wouldn't a gap assignment logic remedy some of this along the front 7, specifically on the runs away?

Just focusing on the linebackers for a moment, I know that in certain schemes and fronts, the gaps move, so wouldn't it make sense to do something simple like giving 2 gaps to the linebackers' run defense logic along with what seems to be the "area" thing that they already have where they hover until the ball gets to a certain point, just so that how they are attacking instead of waiting? Now the WILL backer will know to go from B to playside A on runs away.

On power plays out of an Over front everyone would just move down a gap similar to how LBz described in his first post. The SAM moves playside B to C, the Middle backer will move strong A to playside B, WILL scrapes from weak B to A.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by Senator Palmer

Appreciate the response, shtty. Really good stuff. Really great job of breaking the thing down. So wouldn't programming gap assignments remedy some of this, because the quoted right here is the one thing on defense that has confounded me in Madden 12. I'm never sure how to play certain runs. I know how it's supposed to be played. I know which gaps should be mine, how the pursuit should come, but it always feels like a crap shoot so I'm better off reverting to the Lavar Arrington style of defense as LBz coined it. You broke down very well what is needed for a fundamentally sound defense beyond just gap assignments, such as pursuit, etc. But wouldn't a gap assignment logic remedy some of this along the front 7, specifically on the runs away? Just focusing on the linebackers for a moment, I know that in certain schemes and fronts, the gaps move, so wouldn't it make sense to do something simple like giving 2 gaps to the linebackers' run defense logic along with what seems to be the "area" thing that they already have where they hover until the ball gets to a certain point, just so that how they are attacking instead of waiting? Now the WILL backer will know to go from B to playside A on runs away. On power plays out of an Over front everyone would just move down a gap similar to how LBz described in his first post. The SAM moves playside B to C, the Middle backer will move weak A to playside B, WILL scrapes from weak B to A.

Senator, I was wondering where me and Mcghee had a disconnect. In my post I was simply describing basic assignments with seven players. He's describing assignments with a coverage call that would drop one of those safeties. So on basic assignments with seven we might simply talk about gaps, but McGhee is right once you drop the safety in a Sky call for instance things can change and do so tremendously. I just don't see this being programmed all that great if at all. For instance on a Sky call, I can see them have the safety creep down but not charge/attack down hill like he should as if he knew he had force on run plays. Rather I see it programmed as, him creeping down because his zone takes him there and he plays a soft force.

Now I will say this too. Some coaches may just have a different way of doing things. For instance, let's take a look at the Under Front or what Leo Hand and some others call Weak Eagle Front.



Hand and some others have basic assignments for each player such as run toward, do this. Run away, do that. Pass, depends on stunt and coverage. I'm not sure how EA approaches that when as has been said, for years their game had the second level defender always start with pass if you called a zone coverage.

Just looking at the diagram above for basic assignments here is how many do it:

BILB (Backside ILB)
Keys: Near Guard; backfield flow
Responsibilities vs 2 back: Run toward = Scrape Outside and Contain; Run-Away Scrape and work downhill; check and may plug backside A gap pursuing football from inside out. Pass play - check stunt and coverage call.

Mike (Strong ILB)
Keys: Near Guard Backfield Flow; Tackle
Responsibilities vs 2 back: Run toward = B Gap; Run away = Secure weak A gap then pursue football from inside out. Pass - check stunt and coverage call.

Stud/Sam (SOLB)
Keys: TE; Near Back, Pulling Linemen; Football
Responsibilities vs 2 Back: Run Toward D gap; Run away = Stunt coverage call; Pass = Stunt coverage call.

Weak DE
Keys: Tackle and ball movement; secondary key is near back, pulling linemen
Responsibilities: Run toward C gap; Run Away = check bootleg, counter and reverse then chase looking for cutback. Pass = contains the rush.


Need I keep going? They aint gonna program all of that for the basic front seven with let's just say cover 2 in the secondary and then have it change up if you call sky coverage in the secondary. I just don't see them doing all that work. That would solve the problem. But I don't see them doing all that. At best I see them giving us something basic and hopefully that will be functional. This is just basic assignments, we are not even talking about different types of reactions vs weak side sweep, strong side sweep, Off Tackle strong weak ect. Then maybe having to alter that against single back slot set. They aint gonna do all of that. It's gotta be basic.

[shttymcgee]

Palmer,

I feel like LB's were assigned gaps you might still have the same problem you were describing earlier. If a LB is assigned his near B-gap and the run goes away, is he just going to plug his gap and not pursue the ball? The only time (that i can think of off the top of my head) when a defender can just be accountable for his gap, regardless of the direction of the ball, is on split-zone/1 back zone plays.

LBZ,

I can't see that stuff being programmed either. I feel like the game could get by with 2 main aspects of pursuit being represented properly:
1. Leverage - when the ball is ran at a defender (or a lead blocker), should the defender attempt to turn the ball back inside or spill it laterally
2. Pursuit - when the ball is ran away from a defender, should the player pursue inside-out or should he run over the top.

These are determined by the coverage called and the front structure and if combined with better force representation, the run defense could be much improved.

I feel that is really what LB play boils down to anyway; running to open gaps at the appropriate angle and understanding how to leverage blocks.