Madden 2010 News Post

Madden NFL 10 Video: Pro-TAK Animation System

08:01 PM - May 6, 2009 by backbreaker

Look at Maximum tackle and the suddenness in which the tackler arrives and the wealth of options in this system. The tackler comes to tackle not engage in a line dance. I know I don't know all the features to Pro Tak, when it comes to the actual tackle, but when you see this video, of ESPN NFL 2K5 tackle options you will understand why I critisize the grabbing for grabbing sake.

In 2k5 you could initiate the tackle with a wrap or a hit. I also like which wasn't mentioned in the video, you can choose whether or not you should wrap high or low by flicking the right stick up for high wrap tackle and flicking down for low wrap tackle and the next defender(s) attacks the ball carrier.

I'm not hating, I actually like the idea, I just want it to be aggressive and violent as it should be its a collision sport not contact and racing up to a ball carrier just to hold onto him just for looks, just doesn't look good.

http://xboxmovies.teamxbox.com/xbox/...aximum-Tackle/

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Member Comments

# 21 Valdarez @ 05/08/09 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by icomb1ne


	Given the brief glimpses we have seen it looks cool but not realistic. I think the problem is that they definitely look to much like ragdolls. At 1:03 the guy is falling to the ground head first and it doesn't seem like he trying very hard to break his fall. Talk about a broken back. Also, it seems there will be no dragging defenders and fighting for yards. The defenders will either make the huge hit or simply glance off, no runners overpowering the defenders and breaking from their grasps.

Ragdoll/realistic? They look human, more realistic with regards to movement than any football game we have seen (Madden or 2K's). In that 1:03 reference you used, you don't see the end of the play. For all we know he does extend his arms, or turn his body. That 4 man tackle though, looks far more realistic than the group hugs we've seen thus far on the ProTak animations. You can see/feel the player momentum in the backbreaker version.

# 22 Exonerated @ 05/08/09 10:43 AM

You know the ESPN 2k5 sack of the year nominee is only a 2 man tackle. The first dude falls off...

Just saying. Its not 3 men. It has the illusion of 3. You see the first guy fall off. And then the other 2 sack him.

Just sayin..

# 23 Netherscourge @ 05/08/09 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	I actually think the latest backbreaker tackles looks the most violent and look like real collisions.

Because Backbreaker uses real physics and the hits are momentum-based. The faster you are running at a player prior to a tackle, the harder his body will react to the hit. And the contortions and body movements react to actual collision physics between the player models - which means the chances of seeing the exact same tackle multiple times are very slim.

In Madden and in 2K5 games, tackles are all predetermined animations with random results based on the game engine's parameters. The tackles are almost all motion captured and then tweaked on a PC before the game even loads - that's why you see a lot of the same tackles over and over again and the players fall down the same way over and over again.

# 24 RGiles36 @ 05/08/09 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fourthreemafia


	Can you smell the hypocrisy?

Sure do!

What's equally as funny is ever since Backbreaker coined the "never see the same tackle twice" phrase or whatever the lingo is, mo-capped animations are all of a sudden the devil. Now mo-cap is not good enough. It's hilarious.

# 25 Netherscourge @ 05/08/09 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fourthreemafia


	What I find funny about all this BackBreaker hype is how so many people crush Madden for not having certain features and wont "buy into Maddens hype" until they play it, yet I see people saying "I am so buying Backbreaker" even though the only thing BB has shown thus far is cool tackles and physics (although some are unrealstic), and crappy player models. Hardly anything else is known about the game, yet I already see people proclaiming it the Madden killer. Can you smell the hypocrisy?

No - but I can smell the hope for something better.

Madden has a track record.

Backbreaker is a W.I.P. with a promise of a new beginning for football video games.

You call it hypocrisy. I call it desire for something original.

# 26 roadman @ 05/08/09 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netherscourge


	No - but I can smell the hope for something better. Madden has a track record. Backbreaker is a W.I.P. with a promise of a new beginning for football video games. You call it hypocrisy. I call it desire for something original.

Sounds like your not giving Madden 10 a chance based off track record alone. There is too much space and time left to make any preliminary decisions off both games.

# 27 moylan1234 @ 05/08/09 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roadman


	Sounds like your not giving Madden 10 a chance based off track record alone. There is too much space and time left to make any preliminary decisions off both games.

i'm giving them all a chance. plenty of room in my life for 3 football games

# 28 Netherscourge @ 05/08/09 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roadman


	Sounds like your not giving Madden 10 a chance based off track record alone. There is too much space and time left to make any preliminary decisions off both games.

On the contrary - I'm more excited for this year's Madden then any Madden ever.

I love that Ian and Phil talk to us directly and even ask for our feedback on game-stuff they are tweaking in real-time on their dev PCs.

However, if you think Madden 10 is not going to be judged based on past Madden games then perhaps you are giving Madden 10 too much clearance?

Madden 06, 07, 08 and parts of 09 are all the same game with not many visually obvious upgrades. I know they'll rattle off a list of features they added year-to-year, but most of it's not tangible enough to notice - OR it's so tangible that you see it every single game repeatedly to the point of overkill.

I'm hoping for the best for Madden 10 - I think it'll be the best Madden yet. But I'm so skeptical that I can't just ignore whatever competition is out there.

We all have our own standards for what we want to see added to the game, but it's hard to meet those expectations. I understand that and that's why I have to be wary of hype surrounding the game.

When I see buzz words like "Presentation" and "Highlight Show" and "9-man Gang-Tackles" I get VERY interested. But I know very little about most of the buzz words at the moment, aside from 1 preview video. Hopefully they'll have new stuff at E3 to show off that I can examine.

Until then, I'm still on the fence.

# 29 KyGamerLT @ 05/08/09 12:10 PM

This madden is good enough for me for a year of hard work by a new team, I'm ready to get the cookout goin and playing madden on the flat. I hope Tampa Bay gets a zone blocking run scheme that works, maybe pro-tak will help this.

# 30 roadman @ 05/08/09 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netherscourge


	On the contrary - I'm more excited for this year's Madden then any Madden ever. I love that Ian and Phil talk to us directly and even ask for our feedback on game-stuff they are tweaking in real-time on their dev PCs. However, if you think Madden 10 is not going to be judged based on past Madden games then perhaps you are giving Madden 10 too much clearance? Madden 06, 07, 08 and parts of 09 are all the same game with not many visually obvious upgrades. I know they'll rattle off a list of features they added year-to-year, but most of it's not tangible enough to notice - OR it's so tangible that you see it every single game repeatedly to the point of overkill. I'm hoping for the best for Madden 10 - I think it'll be the best Madden yet. But I'm so skeptical that I can't just ignore whatever competition is out there. We all have our own standards for what we want to see added to the game, but it's hard to meet those expectations. I understand that and that's why I have to be wary of hype surrounding the game. When I see buzz words like "Presentation" and "Highlight Show" and "9-man Gang-Tackles" I get VERY interested. But I know very little about most of the buzz words at the moment, aside from 1 preview video. Hopefully they'll have new stuff at E3 to show off that I can examine. Until then, I'm still on the fence.

I understand how you feel. Last years game was boring to me and I gave up on it.

I just feel there is a major difference in this years Maddens vs the past years performances of Madden. Forum presence at OS and new leadership.

The old leadership of Madden never came around to the forums and that leads me to believe they were happy with the status quo. Ian is the new leader and seems to want to get Madden back to a more sim status based on his interaction with OS.

I'm not relying on the past when there is a new leadership change. It's just like at work, your old boss leaves, a new boss comes in and changes start to happen. It's not going to be same as the old boss.

Time will only tell.

# 31 TheWatcher @ 05/08/09 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by floridagatorfan


	I doubt that it will compete with Madden for sales just like All Pro football couldn't compete with Madden for sales. I just think too many people are going to pick up Madden for the NFL and then maybe get BB secondary because it offers a different experience.

I think BB will do worse than APF did sales-wise. At least APF had some sort of draw with the legends, this game has what? Natural Motion/tackling? Nice, but people who think the mass base will buy this game because of it (taking into account the fact that most of them probably have no idea what the hell it is and have never seen a video unlike us hardcore net news/video junkies) are kidding themselves. But considering that their production is so small, they'll still probably turn a helluva profit anyway.

As far as the game itself, it looks cool but I think people are setting themselves up for a big disappointment in what they're expecting. The tackles--while they do look cool--are terribly exaggerated and that alone should tell people that this game is more than likely not targeting the hardcore sim concept.

# 32 TheWatcher @ 05/08/09 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rgiles36


	Sure do! What's equally as funny is ever since Backbreaker coined the "never see the same tackle twice" phrase or whatever the lingo is, mo-capped animations are all of a sudden the devil. Now mo-cap is not good enough. It's hilarious.

Yep, and people will quickly learn why you still need MoCap. It's going to be funny to watch the tide turn on that one, lol.

# 33 LBzrule @ 05/08/09 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by backbreaker


	Damn, this is not about backbreaker the game, its about Pro Tak, and the videos scene thus far on gang tackling. It appears that the defender doesn't attack the ball carrier when he's engaged with another defender unless you the end-user selects him and initiate the hit stick. The cpu just runs and grabs a hold and start line dancing with the rest of the pile. LBzrule brought up backbreaker as a point of ref. of defenders attacking the ball carrier and they do, no one is comparing Madden the game to Backbreaker the game. Focus on the big picture here, I'm all for Pro Tak, but it needs to be about attacking the ball carrier again the method should be "moth to a flame instead of bees to honey". So if you can watch those pro tak gang tackles and say in your heart of hearts thats how defenders tackle the ball carrier then you have never played on that side of the ball.

Yeah, that's what I was going to post in another thread. The pile ups in Madden can look violent if the user comes in and does it. But the A.I tends to not be as violent. It's the whole user vs A.I discrepancy. I think the A.I needs to be more aggressive in its play.

# 34 Valdarez @ 05/08/09 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fourthreemafia


	What I find funny about all this BackBreaker hype is how so many people crush Madden for not having certain features and wont "buy into Maddens hype" until they play it, yet I see people saying "I am so buying Backbreaker" even though the only thing BB has shown thus far is cool tackles and physics (although some are unrealstic), and crappy player models. Hardly anything else is known about the game, yet I already see people proclaiming it the Madden killer. Can you smell the hypocrisy?

Hypocrisy? Seriously?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netherscourge


	Madden has a track record

Exactly, and a very bad one for going on half a decade now. Couple that with the exclusive NFL license and what you see isn't hypocrisy, it's an informed decision on the part of the buyer.

I'll support any game that looks new and interesting and whose premise looks like something I would enjoy and especially a game that is pushing the boundaries of game play. I won't support a game that historically failed to live up to it's basic tenet, namely representing a realistic game of football. Again, not hypocrisy, if anything, that's living up to your beliefs.

# 35 roadman @ 05/08/09 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valdarez


	Hypocrisy? Seriously? Exactly, and a very bad one for going on half a decade now. Couple that with the exclusive NFL license and what you see isn't hypocrisy, it's an informed decision on the part of the buyer. I'll support any game that looks new and interesting and whose premise looks like something I would enjoy and especially a game that is pushing the boundaries of game play. I won't support a game that historically failed to live up to it's basic tenet, namely representing a realistic game of football. Again, not hypocrisy, if anything, that's living up to your beliefs.

I'll agree with your first paragraph but agree to disagree with the second paragraph. It's also debatable that a person is living in the past and not hoping for the future with the Madden Franchise.

I don't think, up to this point, there is anything important to me, that is similar to the past that Ian has showed us. That's why video games are subjective to each individual. The future looks bright in Ian's hands.

# 36 TheWatcher @ 05/08/09 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hmoob


	How do you think they got the players in BB to run, jump, tackle, etc..? BB does use motion capture, just not canned animation for player interaction. When the players actually make contact with each other/Environment is when Euphoria kicks in.

I'm aware of that. That was not the point I was leaning against, but I will clarify in a moment...

Quote:

Originally Posted by hmoob


	Let me guess, you probably also think Euphoria is a physics engine, too?

LOL.

Wrong.

Let me guess... you don't know me and you just assumed something about my knowledge which you actually don't know?

Quote:

Originally Posted by hmoob


	Opinions means nothing if it's based on nothing.

Yep, except what I am stating is fact so that's a moot point.

The point I am making about what BB is, and the same point I've made several times, is that the technology is far less nailed to predetermined set number of points like standard Motion capture, which is why you can get so much randomness in the tackling (something NM has touted an awful lot), and this is great... The fact that it's physics engine independent is great also and it sounds wonderful, but it's yet to be proven solid for a football game.

The advantage of traditional MoCap for football is that you can more intently forge animations that look like football.

There is really no debate here, because all one has to do is watch one video of BackBreaker and they can see all sorts of movements, reactions and hits that simply do not look like football, except for in its extreme cases. I laugh when people trash Madden's movements and then point to BB, when in fact a great deal of BB's movements and outcomes are totally arcade, too.

Has there been ONE solid wrap tackle shown yet? One solid group wrap? I haven't seen any of that from BB yet (and I doubt those things exist), but if you have a clip please post.

# 37 speedy9386 @ 05/08/09 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by icomb1ne


	Given the brief glimpses we have seen it looks cool but not realistic. I think the problem is that they definitely look to much like ragdolls. At 1:03 the guy is falling to the ground head first and it doesn't seem like he trying very hard to break his fall. Talk about a broken back. Also, it seems there will be no dragging defenders and fighting for yards. The defenders will either make the huge hit or simply glance off, no runners overpowering the defenders and breaking from their grasps.

Yes there is you have to see the whole video. It shows a guy running through another one and it also shows a runner stumbling over a person on the ground but using his hands to retain balance it's AWSOME. It also shows someone bracing themselves when getting flipped on their head by using his hand it's also AWSOME. You should check out their site.

# 38 Tyrant8RDFL @ 05/08/09 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moylan55


	i'm giving them all a chance. plenty of room in my life for 3 football games

I'll toast to this

# 39 Tyrant8RDFL @ 05/08/09 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valdarez


	Hypocrisy? Seriously? Exactly, and a very bad one for going on half a decade now. Couple that with the exclusive NFL license and what you see isn't hypocrisy, it's an informed decision on the part of the buyer. I'll support any game that looks new and interesting and whose premise looks like something I would enjoy and especially a game that is pushing the boundaries of game play. I won't support a game that historically failed to live up to it's basic tenet, namely representing a realistic game of football. Again, not hypocrisy, if anything, that's living up to your beliefs.

Couldn't agree anymore.

Nice post and very well said. I think the fact that Madden has done so poorly in the next gen error it opened the door for games like BackBreaker to be given a look as a alternative if Madden 10 fails.

I feel Madden 10 will be a much better game than 09, and hoping it will be a very sim game.
I will give it a chance as a rental and if it does deliver I will buy it.

Now if BackBreaker delivers sim gameplay which I doubt(Hope I'm wrong), but if the game play is sim, and the game is very customizable. It can cause trouble for Madden. I can see it.

The tackles look very good on that video clip. You want those hits that snaps the head back on the player your hitting or tackling. It gets you pumped!!!!!!!!

# 40 bxgoods @ 05/08/09 11:04 PM

I actually am not the impressed with Backbreaker as other people are.
It doesn't look like a sim, the tackles look cool, but very exageratted.
And the character models are awful. I don't see this doing more sales than APF.
Unless it comes out, that it has an insane franchise mode, or else its just going to be a rental game imo.

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