News Post

Three Things MVP 05 Still Does Better

04:19 PM - May 7, 2009 by RaychelSnr

MLB 09: The Show has been out for over a month, and many baseball gaming enthusiasts have hailed the game as the best baseball video game ever. As a baseball elitist myself, there is no denying that the game is extremely impressive.

It has been five solid years since I have enjoyed a baseball game as much as this year's iteration of The Show. Because of this enjoyment level, I have found myself glued to my PS3 cultivating my Road to the Show career and running a somewhat successful Detroit Tigers dynasty.

Read More - Three Things MVP 05 Still Does Better

Game: MLB '09: The ShowReader Score: 9/10 - Vote Now
Platform: PS2 / PS3 / PSPVotes for game: 90 - View All

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Member Comments

# 121 Imnus @ 05/09/09 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian SCEA


	Some tips on hitting: * Whether your PCI is inside or outside does influence the direction of the hit. * Whether your PCI is over or under the pitch influences flyballs and groundballs. There are also more factors than that. * The right analog stick is a legacy feature for people who want to use it. When you use it, there's a contact penalty. Almost everyone uses the left analog to control hitting. * The same goes for guess pitch, it's for people who don't want to use pure zone hitting. The game is designed for pure zone hitting, guess pitch is simply an alternative to that. That said, there's a lot of deep strategy to guess pitch for those who enjoy it. All four of the above have been in the game since PS1 days in one form or another, which long predates any of the games being discussed. I'm sure earlier baseball games have had these concepts as well. I just wanted to clarify some factual errors being discussed, this isn't a comment on anything else. A common theme over the years is that every person would enjoy the game more if the features they didn't use were taken out. By the same token, every person would enjoy the game less if the features other people didn't use were taken out. Someday in the future of gaming it'll be great when we can ship custom tailored games, or more "flavors" of the same game. Unfortunately often those efforts produce quality issues by dividing efforts. One reason for the Strategy Guide this year is because it's easy to jump to conclusions on how things work. For example Guess pitch has long penalized for incorrect guesses, but until it showed up in the Strategy Guide (and even after for a while) almost everyone thought it was a freebie. There's no particular reason to think of it as a freebie, but that's how urban legends combined with the internet work. The same about the classic vs. meter debate. Speculation easily wins over facts on the internet. If you take a look at the very last page of the Strategy Guide, it reveals some subtle insights on hitting. I think it's a lot more fun to explore the game and discover these things on your own than to simply be told in a guide, and there's a lot more to hitting both in the game and real life. It ties into why real life pitchers pitch the way they do and favor certain zones with certain pitches. A lot of strategies in real life work in the game for this reason. Why do you walk AI batters? You certainly don't want to, but you do. It's actually a complex question because it progressively happens over 4-10 pitches, and the answer reveals that there are a lot of things happening strategically on different levels. Just to name one example. Hitting is definitely not just about pitch location and where the batter tries to swing at. Just to name one example, when the batter swings too early he can't help but roll his wrists and this induce more groundballs. Pitchers further exploit this by locating pitches away, which often end up being pulled foul by the batter for a chopper. Look at 6-way spray charts (Lft-Cen-Rt with FB-GB) and it's obvious what's happening. You can look at it through stat splits, by watching an early swing in slow motion, or asking any hitting coach. Better yet, look at the assymetries of how pitchers pitch and find out why. This and every other concept is why. The point is the batter can be aiming dead center on the ball, but because he was too early he will always swing over it if aiming dead on. This would happen even if the hitter knew exactly where the pitch was going to land but not when. There are no batters in MLB who have a flat swing from beginning to end, and that is exactly why hitting is not just about pitch location and where the batter aims. Each of the items listed in the Analysis Legend correspond to a key principle like this, and there are a lot more not yet described. In that regard, it's a lot like real life because there aren't any books that cover even half the mechanics of hitting. Some of the best ones were written 50 years ago!

I hope you guys put a really good gameplay tutorial next year so I don't have to read about people complaining about the game just because they suck at it, and don't give a damm about trying to learn the mechanics, just want the game to play the way they want.

Look for the Training mode in Pro Evolution Soccer so you guys get an idea how to do it.

# 122 MrOctober430 @ 05/09/09 09:32 PM

After playing the Show for the first time today, I felt like MVP05 was so far ahead of it's time. I just hate the pitching in the Show & baserunning is awful, but that's just me.

Still will give it a chance since theres no other baseball games out there.

# 123 Bumble14 @ 05/09/09 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jim416


	He got some facts wrong, just wondering about this being in this forum. If we can't start threads comparing MLB2k and The Show, why this one? If you or I would have put a comparison here it probably would have been closed.

What facts did I get wrong Jim? Brian attempted to say that PCI mimicked MVP 05's left stick 1:1 influence- this is flat out not true. PCI may work to influence the direction of the ball on certain pitches (even Brian admits that "there are other factors" that go into where you hit the ball besides PCI influence), but MVP would attempt to take the ball the direction you wanted on every pitch. If you wanted to try and pull an outside pitch, no matter how ill advised, at least you had the option to try in MVP- your batters arms through the zone were completely under your control. There is a huge difference between the two hitting models, and my article was pointing out that I preferred the control MVP gave me at the plate.

I don't really have an issue with people knocking the article, but trust me when I say that there was a lot of research and play testing that occurred before it was written. My facts are not incorrect- Brian is incorrect by making users believe left stick (pci) influence in The Show is true 1:1 swing influence like in MVP.

# 124 SoxChamp @ 05/09/09 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imnus


	I hope you guys put a really good gameplay tutorial next year so I don't have to read about people complaining about the game just because they suck at it, and don't give a damm about trying to learn the mechanics, just want the game to play the way they want. Look for the Training mode in Pro Evolution Soccer so you guys get an idea how to do it.

Do you honestly think that the people who are complaining about hitting are going to take the time to use a tutorial or training mode? It's much easier to run to a message board and gripe and complain.

# 125 Imnus @ 05/09/09 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoxChamp


	Do you honestly think that the people who are complaining about hitting are going to take the time to use a tutorial or training mode? It's much easier to run to a message board and gripe and complain.

Yes, you're right. But if you've ever played PES Training mode you'll see that it's much more appealing than the guide in The Show.

# 126 Imnus @ 05/09/09 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bumble14


	What facts did I get wrong Jim? Brian attempted to say that PCI mimicked MVP 05's left stick 1:1 influence- this is flat out not true. PCI may work to influence the direction of the ball on certain pitches (even Brian admits that "there are other factors" that go into where you hit the ball besides PCI influence), but MVP would attempt to take the ball the direction you wanted on every pitch. If you wanted to try and pull an outside pitch, no matter how ill advised, at least you had the option to try in MVP- your batters arms through the zone were completely under your control. There is a huge difference between the two hitting models, and my article was pointing out that I preferred the control MVP gave me at the plate. I don't really have an issue with people knocking the article, but trust me when I say that there was a lot of research and play testing that occurred before it was written. My facts are not incorrect- Brian is incorrect by making users believe left stick (pci) influence in The Show is true 1:1 swing influence like in MVP.

I don't think Brian ever say that The Show tried to mimick how swing influence worked in MVP, he just said how it worked on it's own, it's not trying to be like MVP that's why you'll never like it.

While you hope they implement those MVP features you prefer, I really hope they never will. And I could too write an article "with a lot of previous research", and demostrate how everything on The Show is so much better than MVP except fielding.

# 127 Bumble14 @ 05/09/09 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jim416


	Not you, the person who wrote the article. The problem with this entire thread is people aren't even bothering to read what the dev wrote regarding the hitting. They're taking what was factually wrong, running with it, and like Brian said, it becomes an urban legend. This thread should be moved to the MVP forums as this would have never survived this long had I, or anyone else posted it. It's become a "What's Better MVP or The Show". Just saying, if I would have posted this it would have been closed, and rightfully so, and we would have been told that there is an "impressions thread", lol. That's all. It's taken on a life of it's own, MVP vs. The Show.

Jim-

I wrote the article- I'm Christian McLeod.

There was nothing factually wrong about what I wrote about The Show's hitting system. The bottom line is that PCI is not 1:1 left stick hitting like in MVP. That is EXACTLY what I talked about in my article, and even in Brian's response he admits that along with PCI there are other factors that go into into what determines where a ball is hit in The Show. I never said one thing in the article that was not factual about the hitting system in The Show.

I agree with you though in that people are not reading this article. What I think many people are not understanding is that I said I enjoy the game immensely, and have it on my short list of GOTY. That being said- there are certain areas that MVP still does better than The Show, and those were clearly defined in my article.

# 128 bkrich83 @ 05/09/09 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imnus


	While you hope they implement those MVP features you prefer, I really hope they never will. And I could too write an article "with a lot of previous research", and demostrate how everything on The Show is so much better than MVP except fielding.

Agreed. I despised MVP's hitting system. It would be very disappointing if it was implemented in The Show.

# 129 bkrich83 @ 05/09/09 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jim416


	Not you, the person who wrote the article. The problem with this entire thread is people aren't even bothering to read what the dev wrote regarding the hitting. They're taking what was factually wrong, running with it, and like Brian said, it becomes an urban legend. This thread should be moved to the MVP forums as this would have never survived this long had I, or anyone else posted it. It's become a "What's Better MVP or The Show". Just saying, if I would have posted this it would have been closed, and rightfully so, and we would have been told that there is an "impressions thread", lol. That's all. It's taken on a life of it's own, MVP vs. The Show.

Agreed on all points...

# 130 Bumble14 @ 05/09/09 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jim416


	Which was overlooked and is being missed. Guess I just can't figure out how this can be posted, but no 2k vs. Show comparisons, and we've got one thread that only certain people can post in. Scratching my somewhat bald head. No problem, said my piece.

I guess to answer your question, whenever we post a feature article on the site, it normally ends up in the forum of the game it is written about.

Article was never meant to be a MVP vs. The Show, but rather a closer look at the 3 areas mentioned.

Hope this clears things up as to why this article was placed into this forum.

Love your writings by the way. I know it's off topic, but wanted to let you know.

# 131 jpup @ 05/10/09 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bumble14


	I guess to answer your question, whenever we post a feature article on the site, it normally ends up in the forum of the game it is written about. Article was never meant to be a MVP vs. The Show, but rather a closer look at the 3 areas mentioned. Hope this clears things up as to why this article was placed into this forum. Love your writings by the way. I know it's off topic, but wanted to let you know.

How can you write an article called "Three Things MVP 05 Still Does Better" and say it isn't supposed to be MVP vs. The Show? Silliness.

# 132 k_bassuka @ 05/10/09 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsb13


	I think it was a good article.....the problem is/was it was put in the show forums...which is a big mistake. This thread should have been put in the MVP forum.

What's the difference of placing it in the MVP forum? If you don't like people to point out the truth about this game just don't read the forum, I believed that's what the forum is about for people to talk about what they like and what they don't like about a game. If you like this game better than anything you ever played good for you and you have the right to support the game but they're others that aren't so high on this game as you are, like me, I believe I was robbed yet again (3 years in a row) on a game that's half build and its repetitive, that's my thought. To suggest that people shouldn't complaint/ point out the games problems or weak areas is just ridiculous. Grow up.

# 133 Woodweaver @ 05/10/09 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k_bassuka


	What's the difference of placing it in the MVP forum? If you don't like people to point out the truth about this game just don't read the forum, I believed that's what the forum is about for people to talk about what they like and what they don't like about a game. If you like this game better than anything you ever played good for you and you have the right to support the game but they're others that aren't so high on this game as you are, like me, I believe I was robbed yet again (3 years in a row) on a game that's half build and its repetitive, that's my thought. To suggest that people shouldn't complaint/ point out the games problems or weak areas is just ridiculous. Grow up.

Half built? Robbed 3 years in a row? The truth?

# 134 bkrich83 @ 05/10/09 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodweaver


	Half built? Robbed 3 years in a row? The truth?

Yes, hyperbole at it's finest.

# 135 mmorg @ 05/10/09 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bumble14


	Jim- I wrote the article- I'm Christian McLeod. There was nothing factually wrong about what I wrote about The Show's hitting system. The bottom line is that PCI is not 1:1 left stick hitting like in MVP. That is EXACTLY what I talked about in my article, and even in Brian's response he admits that along with PCI there are other factors that go into into what determines where a ball is hit in The Show. I never said one thing in the article that was not factual about the hitting system in The Show. I agree with you though in that people are not reading this article. What I think many people are not understanding is that I said I enjoy the game immensely, and have it on my short list of GOTY. That being said- there are certain areas that MVP still does better than The Show, and those were clearly defined in my article.

That hitting system is broken. The hitting system in MVP belongs in a video game not a true simulation like The Show.

# 136 Acedeck @ 05/10/09 03:46 PM

The hitting in MVP allowed you to control how you wanted to push/pull various pitches, but didn't allow you to aim where you wanted to swing. The same counter-argument could be made that it didn't allow precision with your swing, since controlling *where* you swing is equally as important as controlling how you swing.

MVP allowed you to uppercut, swing down, swing level, and push/pull pitches. It didn't let you actually aim where your bat swung. That's a huge fault in a swinging system, in my humble opinion. I'm not saying The Show gives you 100% control of your swing. I'm simply stating my point that MVP by no means contained 100% control, like the OP seems to imply.

# 137 mwjr @ 05/10/09 06:39 PM

My biggest problem with MVP's owner mode is that your MLB team started out playing in what was essentially what was a minor leage stadium.

That just wasn't realistic at all, and I found it amazingly difficult to generate money to build it up.

And thos sim times. LORD, those sim times. It took forever to sim games if you were so inclined, as I usually was since I couldn't play every game.

That said, MVP was a fantastic game, and it's a shame that that such a revolutionary a game - a game that was on the precipice of something amazing, much like NFL 2K5 - was killed before it got going because of these stupid exclusive licenses.

# 138 Crown42Royal @ 05/10/09 10:57 PM

Decent article.

# 139 hydrostar @ 05/10/09 11:11 PM

Just want to chime in and say that I also don't feel it was wise to post this article in this forum. This encourages the kind of arguments that the hard-working moderators try so hard to prevent. Not a very good idea.

# 140 SFGiantsPBA @ 05/10/09 11:40 PM

I think High Heat 2001, 2002 and 2003 was a better game then MVP but MVP added innovation to Baseball and for OP to call High Heat an arcade game is just wrong MVP was way more on the Arcade side of things then High Heat was.

I always thought of The Show as the best of the 2 games High Heat type of Sim with MVP Meters and such.

Anyone that knows anything about baseball will tell you nothing comes close to it like The Show and The Show is the only game that makes me see things on a real MLB game and say that's just like The Show.

I have been playing baseball games since I was a child and I'm 40 now and no game have I played was so Sim like the real thing as The Show none.

I see the same things happen every day on TV that happen in the Show but MVP didn't give me that.

MVP was a real fun time and I ran leagues with that game all year round with every MLB Version and had a blast but it don't even come close to The Show.

High Heat arcade my ***!

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