Speed Without Ball Description 2K19

[mcdowell31]

Initial experience: This makes the attribute Reaction Speed matter.

[devroyce]

Quote: Originally Posted by mcdowell31

Initial experience: This makes the attribute Reaction Speed matter.

Thanks for confirming!

[youALREADYknow]

Quote: Originally Posted by devroyce

My goal is to come up with realistic Movement speeds without having to alter Game Speed (which alters clock speed as well), and without having to alter Attribute Speed and Acceleration...thus keeping those categories at 50.

It's TOUGH to balance this year and nearly impossible to move Player Speed without touching Game Speed from my experience. The animation speed becomes out of sync with player speed once you begin to tweak Speed/Acceleration in any way from defaults.

There's a small window of change that maintains balance, but at some point you will see one of the following:
1. Game Speed Too Low: Player animations are too slow to keep up with player movement. This mostly impacts defense and means that speed/acceleration become more important than animation packages, badges, and skill. You will see a lot of success using sprint with ball over dribble moves.
2. Game Speed Too High: The reverse where player animations take place faster than the reaction time and acceleration of players on the court. This will make animation packages overpowered relative to player athleticism and you will see more separation using dribble moves and finishing moves (euro/spin/hop/post-spin/etc) than using the sprint button.

I generally prefer to keep Game Speed balanced higher than Player Speed (#2). That doesn't mean that the numeric value of Game Speed is higher than Speed/Acceleration though. The DEFAULT balance is the only thing I go back to when trying to balance player movement.

Game Speed @ 50 is balanced with the average of the w/Ball and w/o Ball values. Default Max is 70, Min is 30 (Avg of 50). Speed and Acceleration attribute sliders are also at 50 by default. It's not a hard rule, but you will usually see overpowered effects if you go too far from the balance of Game Speed = Median of w/Ball and w/o Ball.

I've played on both high (65-70) and low (35-40) Game Speed in 2K19, but my goal in both cases was to make sure that Game Speed was slightly higher than the w/Ball and w/o Ball "median" to allow animations and skill to matter more than movement.

It's a mad science getting movement right in 2K19 so hopefully they do a much better job of capturing the change of pace style of real basketball in 2K20.

[devroyce]

Quote: Originally Posted by youALREADYknow

It's TOUGH to balance this year and nearly impossible to move Player Speed without touching Game Speed from my experience. The animation speed becomes out of sync with player speed once you begin to tweak Speed/Acceleration in any way from defaults. There's a small window of change that maintains balance, but at some point you will see one of the following: 1. Game Speed Too Low: Player animations are too slow to keep up with player movement. This mostly impacts defense and means that speed/acceleration become more important than animation packages, badges, and skill. You will see a lot of success using sprint with ball over dribble moves. 2. Game Speed Too High: The reverse where player animations take place faster than the reaction time and acceleration of players on the court. This will make animation packages overpowered relative to player athleticism and you will see more separation using dribble moves and finishing moves (euro/spin/hop/post-spin/etc) than using the sprint button. I generally prefer to keep Game Speed balanced higher than Player Speed (#2). That doesn't mean that the numeric value of Game Speed is higher than Speed/Acceleration though. The DEFAULT balance is the only thing I go back to when trying to balance player movement. Game Speed @ 50 is balanced with the average of the w/Ball and w/o Ball values. Default Max is 70, Min is 30 (Avg of 50). Speed and Acceleration attribute sliders are also at 50 by default. It's not a hard rule, but you will usually see overpowered effects if you go too far from the balance of Game Speed = Median of w/Ball and w/o Ball. I've played on both high (65-70) and low (35-40) Game Speed in 2K19, but my goal in both cases was to make sure that Game Speed was slightly higher than the w/Ball and w/o Ball "median" to allow animations and skill to matter more than movement. It's a mad science getting movement right in 2K19 so hopefully they do a much better job of capturing the change of pace style of real basketball in 2K20.

"Tough" is absolutely true.

And see that's why I went with option #2 in a an old slider set from December before that huge 2K patch. However, even with option #2, I had Game Speed at 65, I had Acceleration near 100 as compared to Speed of 0 before someone suggested that Player Speed should be at 20, I have always had Speed with Ball Max higher than Speed without Ball to help offensive players blowby, and also draw fouls...this helped with the defensive players unrealistically catching up to faster players each time there is a breakaway fastbreak. However, I can't really recall what I did not like about the speed setup back then, but it still didn't cut it for me in the long run...though one of the reasons was that it became too easy.

But I just can't get with the 70/30 method across the board at all. I don't like it at all, one bit. Another thing I don't like is changing clock speed (Game Speed). But hey if that works for some...I will say this...I am willing to try 70/30 again and see if it does change my mind and may warm up to it. It's been many months since I played that way.

Otherwise, I am going to continue testing as is until 2k20. But hopefully they do fix it all.

[devroyce]

Just tried 70/30 and it is a huge no-go in my book. For some it may be a great thing. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. But I'm not even going to go into details. It resembles nothing like the real thing to me. Yes, it's a video game, and certain developer/coding aspects may work together according to the "video gaming" perspective, but it just doesn't seem realistic visually to me at all.

[youALREADYknow]

Quote: Originally Posted by devroyce

"Tough" is absolutely true. And see that's why I went with option #2 in a an old slider set from December before that huge 2K patch. However, even with option #2, I had Game Speed at 65, I had Acceleration near 100 as compared to Speed of 0 before someone suggested that Player Speed should be at 20, I have always had Speed with Ball Max higher than Speed without Ball to help offensive players blowby, and also draw fouls...this helped with the defensive players unrealistically catching up to faster players each time there is a breakaway fastbreak. However, I can't really recall what I did not like about the speed setup back then, but it still didn't cut it for me in the long run...though one of the reasons was that it became too easy. But I just can't get with the 70/30 method across the board at all. I don't like it at all, one bit. Another thing I don't like is changing clock speed (Game Speed). But hey if that works for some...I will say this...I am willing to try 70/30 again and see if it does change my mind and may warm up to it. It's been many months since I played that way. Otherwise, I am going to continue testing as is until 2k20. But hopefully they do fix it all.

I agree with you that 70/30 isn't a good representation of player movement. If you have a default Game Speed of 50, then my goal is just to have a median of 50 (not 70/30). I've been stretching the Min scales down to 1-10 for a long time and will keep it that way until 2K20 drops. The Max scale is the one that gives me the most problems depending on what other settings and sliders are adjusted. At Game Speed of 50 and a Min scale of 1, I'd try to keep the Max near 100. The problem you stated in the OP is because 100 is such an extreme setting. Most rosters have Speed/Acceleration attributes above 60 for the vast majority of players which means that most players will be faster than the 2K default Max of 70. It's tough to stretch the scales AND keep balance with all of Game Speed, Speed, and Acceleration at 50.

There is a easy test to confirm the relationship between the Speed/Acceleration attribute sliders and the w/Ball and w/o Ball sliders. This relationship determines how much of that Min/Max range actually gets used. You can test this by putting all of the w/ Ball and w/o Ball sliders to 100 Max and 1 Min. After that, adjust both Speed and Acceleration attribute sliders to 99 and watch how every player's movement animations begin to move at warp speed. Now set the Speed and Acceleration attribute sliders to 1 and watch how every player moves and dribbles slower with stronger foot planting in a methodical way.

In both cases, only a narrow part of that 1-100 Min/Max range is being used. Keeping Speed and Acceleration attribute sliders near 50 (default) is the only way to make sure that the full range of 1-100 can be used w/Ball and w/o Ball. The roster scales determine how much of that range actually gets used though. Default rosters have a narrow range for both. If you move Speed or Acceleration attribute sliders to the extremes, then the range of 1-100 for Min/Max no longer means the same thing. The balance is determined by the attribute slider AND the w/Ball, w/o Ball sliders.

That's the effect I believe you are seeing when you say that the description is wrong for Speed Without Ball. Your changes to the default Speed and Acceleration attribute sliders could have made the "Min" and "Max" values less effective. If your Acceleration attribute slider is 100, then you might as well put the "Min" values as close to the "Max" as possible because the game engine believes that every player is near the "Max" attribute. The reverse is true if the Speed attribute is at 0 and the game engine believes every player is near the "Min" attribute.

I've been in the zone of Game Speed of 62-65 for most of 2K19 because that's the range where I think the ball travels at real-life speed on shots and free throws. In order to make up for the Game Speed going up, I've lowered the Acceleration w/Ball Max and Acceleration w/o Ball Max to prevent the warp speed animations from happening no matter what the player's rating is. I've also lowered the Speed attribute (but left the Speed w/Ball and Speed w/o Ball Max high) to prevent sliding and improve foot planting. Both changes were made to bring the balance back near 50. Game Speed at 65 means Speed/Acceleration are "balanced" with a median of 35.

Sorry if that seems confusing btw.

[devroyce]

Quote: Originally Posted by youALREADYknow

I agree with you that 70/30 isn't a good representation of player movement. If you have a default Game Speed of 50, then my goal is just to have a median of 50 (not 70/30). I've been stretching the Min scales down to 1-10 for a long time and will keep it that way until 2K20 drops. The Max scale is the one that gives me the most problems depending on what other settings and sliders are adjusted. At Game Speed of 50 and a Min scale of 1, I'd try to keep the Max near 100. The problem you stated in the OP is because 100 is such an extreme setting. Most rosters have Speed/Acceleration attributes above 60 for the vast majority of players which means that most players will be faster than the 2K default Max of 70. It's tough to stretch the scales AND keep balance with all of Game Speed, Speed, and Acceleration at 50. There is a easy test to confirm the relationship between the Speed/Acceleration attribute sliders and the w/Ball and w/o Ball sliders. This relationship determines how much of that Min/Max range actually gets used. You can test this by putting all of the w/ Ball and w/o Ball sliders to 100 Max and 1 Min. After that, adjust both Speed and Acceleration attribute sliders to 99 and watch how every player's movement animations begin to move at warp speed. Now set the Speed and Acceleration attribute sliders to 1 and watch how every player moves and dribbles slower with stronger foot planting in a methodical way. In both cases, only a narrow part of that 1-100 Min/Max range is being used. Keeping Speed and Acceleration attribute sliders near 50 (default) is the only way to make sure that the full range of 1-100 can be used w/Ball and w/o Ball. If you move Speed or Acceleration attribute sliders to the extremes, then the range of 1-100 for Min/Max no longer means the same thing. The balance is determined by the attribute slider AND the w/Ball, w/o Ball sliders. That's the effect I believe you are seeing when you say that the description is wrong for Speed Without Ball. Your changes to the default Speed and Acceleration attribute sliders could have made the "Min" and "Max" values less effective. If your Acceleration attribute slider is 100, then you might as well put the "Min" values as close to the "Max" as possible because the game engine believes that every player is near the "Max" attribute. The reverse is true if the Speed attribute is at 0 and the game engine believes every player is near the "Min" attribute. I've been in the zone of Game Speed of 62-65 for most of 2K19 because that's the range where I think the ball travels at real-life speed on shots and free throws. In order to make up for the Game Speed going up, I've lowered the Acceleration w/Ball Max and Acceleration w/o Ball Max to prevent the warp speed animations from happening no matter what the player's rating is. I've also lowered the Speed attribute (but left the Speed w/Ball and Speed w/o Ball Max high) to prevent sliding and improve foot planting. Both changes were made to bring the balance back near 50. Game Speed at 65 means Speed/Acceleration are "balanced" with a median of 35. Sorry if that seems confusing btw.

Right! I definitely understand what you are saying. And what you explained above is one of the major reasons I chose to go with Game Speed of 65 at that time...I absolutely agree with the real life shot speed and free throw speed..even down to the ball being faster than players' reaction timing occasionally; and I would even see horrible free throw shooters airball at times. I did see great reviews regarding that aspect of the set at the time. And while I still love 65 Game Speed, it may have been that I was also soured by the new patch 2K implemented at the time minus a few other gripes. I'm telling you, I was upset when that happened.

I will try your method and see what happens...and if you could post those numbers for easier view that'd be great.

[youALREADYknow]

Here's my current setup offline...

Game Speed: 65
Acceleration: 6
Speed: 1
Speed with Ball Max: 100
Speed with Ball Min: 1
Acceleration with Ball Max: 60
Acceleration with Ball Min: 15
Speed without Ball Max: 100
Speed without Ball Min: 1
Acceleration without Ball Max: 70
Acceleration without Ball Min: 5

Speed Max/Min at 100/1 is balanced around 50, but it won't really matter with this slider set because the Speed attribute slider is set all the way down to 1. The base "speed" level of players on the court is more like 1-10 than 1-100. You will never see players running around at anything near regular speed unless they are turboing into a dribble/shot animation.

Acceleration Max/Min at 60/15 and 70/5 is balanced around 37.5. This still doesn't matter as much because of the Acceleration attribute at 6. You still won't see anything approaching the Max end of that scale, but there are bursts of explosion in/out of animations when dribble moves are timed right because the Game Speed is set to 65.

Because the attribute sliders are set so low, the Min slider has more impact on player movement than the Max slider. I'm seeing huge changes in gameplay for every +1/-1 move in the attribute sliders. Same for changing the Min slider, but almost no change in moving the Max slider.

That's what I wanted though... faster animations than player movement.

The first thing you notice with lower Acceleration balance is that your players feel heavier and can't move laterally as quickly with the ball. If you dropped Acceleration with Ball Min down to 1, then you wouldn't even be able to sprint dribble left/right which is crazy to see/feel. That's because of the strong foot planting. Turbo also kills stamina much faster since it's only useful to get on a defender's inside shoulder and not to run by them. You could hold turbo on offense and still not get past anyone unless they already were beaten by a dribble move.

This set does a better job of rewarding change of pace and stop-and-go ball handling. The rest of my slider set is tough on inside defense to make up for how easy it can be to drive to the basket using dribble moves and euro/spin/hop layups. I have both Contact Shot Frequency sliders at 100 with high Layup Defense Strength sliders.

I'm really not recommending this movement base for others to use, but it's worth testing to see what you can change by moving off those default levels of 50. You lose out on the much wider gap in Speed/Acceleration, but the player's animation packages and ball handling ability matter so much more that it makes up for it IMO. It also unlocks a lot of reaction and contact animations that normally wouldn't play out.