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Do You Care About Dangerous Hits in Madden?

The question of realism in sports games is always a tricky thing to discuss. Most of us want our sports games to be “realistic” depictions of what we watch on TV or experience in our day-to-day lives.

What that usually means is hoping Madden makes the passing game more diversified, or hoping you can botch your cap situation like a true Jerry Jones disciple. In many respects, what people are talking about wanting here at Operation Sports are “simulation” aspects that help keep a game dynamic and interesting. Repetition is the enemy.

But there’s another layer of “realism” in sports games, as well as another set of creative liberties that go along with it. I would classify this element of realism as visual realism. It’s one part graphics, but it’s also just one part physicality. Hockey games, football games, basketball games, even baseball games all have to deal with collisions and physics. What do these interactions look like? How do they make you feel? (Boxing games and MMA games are built around visual physicality, so I’m ignoring them here because combat sports are a whole other disucssion.)

So when it comes to Madden, something I see every season now is a frustration with a lack of “big hits” now in the game. The “feel” of using the Hit Stick is not as satisfying as it once was, and the act of “decleating” someone is not what it used to be. There is a longing for these massive, and yes, dangerous hits.

However, how acceptable is this desire to see dangerous hits, even if they have a “satisfying” feel? Knowing what we know about concussions and head injuries, is it awkward to want crippling hits in our football video games? Is it weird to see certain hits go unflagged even though they’re blatant head shots or late hits?

These are not simple questions to me, so let’s chat more after the jump.

(Side note: I know the timing is a bit weird here -- what with the NFL Draft coming up this week -- but Madden 17 coverage will begin in earnest soon after the draft, so it feels like one of the final times I can talk about this topic before everyone just wants to talk about the new hotness.)

The Role of Video Games

I want to say first and foremost that the NFL and its owners are the gatekeepers here as it relates to CTE and football. When you have a top NFL official saying football and CTE are connected, that’s a positive step towards admitting there’s a problem.

When Jerry Jones comes out and says there is no correlation between CTE and football a week after the original statement from the NFL, that’s a bad look. It’s an even worse look when another NFL owner, in this case Jim Irsay, comes out and makes an analogy where playing football is compared to taking an aspirin. Not only is it moronic and disingenuous to make such a comparison, it’s selfish and gross to put your personal brand above the well being of those you employ and supposedly care about.

NFL officials and owners still have a lot of work to do to show they truly care, and are trying to be genuine in their pursuit of admitting both the seriousness of head injuries and the magnitude of the problem at hand. Point being, it’s not on video games and the developers to “fix” football and the science behind bashing your head into stuff really hard every day.

But what video games may have some responsibility for is addressing the seriousness of these hits when they occur, as well as trying to avoid glorifying these moments. The “glorification” part is especially tricky when many, as I said, miss the days of the Hit Stick being a form of first-degree assault.

So About Madden...

As it relates to the seriousness of these hits, Madden is in a weird spot. It’s a game trying to be driven more and more by physics rather than canned animations, but what this leads to are hits like these:
 


I have a lot of problems with this hit:

-It’s a defenseless player
-The play is whistled dead
-It’s a helmet-to-helmet hit
-There is no flag on the play and nothing is said about the hit
-It’s also an unintended, but awkward coincidence that a “success” chime goes off for achieving a goal as the Cowboys player is torpedoed.

Nothing about that sequence is user-driven either. That is a CPU defender diving in late to take a shot at a receiver.

But do you care? Does this bother you at all? Should this bother you?

To put it another way, does it bother you that this is a dangerous hit, or does it more bother you that the tackling in this game resembles dudes just throwing their corpses at each other some of the time?

Here’s another example:
 


Does that look like good, safe, smart tackling to you? I have never played real football a day in my life, but that sure looks really dangerous and illegal. I’m not trying to sit here and say video games should teach kids proper tackling technique, but I also don’t know who is being better served by seeing stuff like the above in a video game.

And this isn’t about trying to say GTA turns kids into car-jacking, hooker-beating maniacs. What I’m simply saying is ignoring the issue, or making tackling look insanely unsafe is not a great look for the NFL, and it’s not realistic either.

The measured approach in my mind is embrace the danger of the sport and show off the outcomes. For example, whether it’s because the NFL doesn’t want concussions to exist anymore, or because the Madden developers simply took them out, I don’t think I’ve experienced a virtual concussion in Madden 16. I have not seen anyone go through a concussion protocol. Therefore, I have to make the assumption head injuries do not exist in this fantasy realm.

I don’t agree with that approach. Even if concussions are rare in the game rather than nonexistent, it would still be a phony way to address the problem. After all, saying nothing about concussions and pretending they’re not a big deal is a big part of the problem.

Regardless, from a logical and visual perspective, a lot of hits in Madden just look stupid. Most of the time, these are hits that are entirely driven by physics rather than canned “Hit Stick” animations. Some of the “best” hits in Madden are currently illegal in real life and look dumb.

I think the GIFs I have shown here are examples of what I would consider stupid looking, physics-based hits. In these cases, Madden makes the sport look bad, dangerous and unrealistic. Of course, the sport will always be dangerous, but at least show the danger in such a way that makes sense and is in line with the realism on the field.

There is still a place for “big hits” in Madden, just with caveats. If you want to show off a massive shoulder to chest hit where a player gets wrecked, go for it. After all, players do get hurt after being hit hard in Madden -- it just ends with a broken jaw rather than a concussion.

But the days of glossing over the results of these hits should be gone. The days of watching a defenseless player get launched into by a physics-based meat patty should be over. The days of defenders not even trying to protect themselves when diving should be behind us. And the virtual referees should do their jobs and step in when things go over the line.

As a sim-oriented community, it would be hypocritical to expect anything less.


Member Comments
# 21 roadman @ 04/25/16 03:57 PM
Eh, I can take it or leave it.

It's been mostly leave it when more than a few years ago the NFL looks over some or all of the tackling.(Chase might be able to confirm or deny that) I think that is why we don't see helmet popping hits anymore.

Plus, the league has come down on the concussion protocol and changed some of the rules.
 
# 22 4thQtrStre5S @ 04/25/16 04:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SageInfinite
By overdone I meant they were late and illegal at times. They added them for the sake of having them, but they weren't implemented realistically in alot of circumstances that I've noticed while playing.

The stuff where the players were still up and trying to get free, I agree, looked pretty good.
Now that you have cleared up what was meant by "toning" down the clean up hits, I can agree we could do without the late hits, just as long as it doesn't effect the low hits and gang tackles prior to a play being whistled dead.

I would like tackles to be determined more by player size - thus a 5'11" CB weighing about 185, isn't going to go high on a receiver who may be 6'5" and 245lbs, for example; but I do believe it may get a little too in depth to create such an exact tackle system because there are players, who, while even being smaller than their opponent, still can deliver big hits...Angles/positioning means a lot on how a player attempts to take down an opponent.
 
# 23 SageInfinite @ 04/25/16 04:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4thQtrStre5S
Now that you have cleared up what was meant by "toning" down the clean up hits, I can agree we could do without the late hits, just as long as it doesn't effect the low hits and gang tackles prior to a play being whistled dead.

I would like tackles to be determined more by player size - thus a 5'11" CB weighing about 185, isn't going to go high on a receiver who may be 6'5" and 245lbs, for example; but I do believe it may get a little too in depth to create such an exact tackle system because there are players, who, while even being smaller than their opponent, still can deliver big hits...Angles/positioning means a lot on how a player attempts to take down an opponent.
Totally agree. There needs to be a marriage between the ratings and the physics. There should be some wiggle room for anomalies every now again. Crazy stuff we don't expect does happen, but I think most of the time we should get the realistic outcomes that we expect.

I'd like to see the hitstick go high, or low make a comeback. Actually you know what, I think the hitstick should go. I feel we should be beyond that. I think we should be able to select what type of tackle we're going for(high/low/wrap-up(safer)/aggressive(flying tackle and such), then have the angle and speed depict what type of hit it is.
 
# 24 Ampking101 @ 04/25/16 05:00 PM
If the tackling engine was tied to injuries I might care but it seems very much now that injuries rely on a dice roll and the injury gets randomized. The fact that I can see the slightest wrap up tackle cause a Ruptured Disk but I can see a huge (and sometimes questionable) hit and the player just jumps right up after like nothing happened when one of the players would at best have a take a couple plays off after something like that, not to mention that where they get hit doesn't seem to matter where injuries are concerned either, I've seen incidental "helmet to helmet" hits in the game (which was mostly due to a diving player hitting a player being tackled) amount to a bruised sternum when it clearly would have been a concussion or neck injury. It is utterly unrealistic and completely pulls me out of the game when I see an occurrence like that.

I know the NFL wants to tone down big hits and wants to separate things like concussions and injuries being tied to those big hits (and I would venture that if they could have their way completely that injuries would be completely removed from madden).

So when I see a hit like the one in the article, I don't even think twice about it. There are no consequences on either side (you know it won't increase the likelyhood of an injury to the ball carrier or the defender) and there certainly is no benefit to having it in the game except for it being something you would see a dirty player do in the NFL. At this point I would rather just cut out big or questionable hits altogether and make every tackle a wrap up tackle because at this point seeing a player either get or deliver a leveling hit and then brush it off like any other wrap up tackle just screams "video game" and pulls me out of the game.

There is a reason the Antonio Brown and Vontaze Burfict hit was so controversial and widely discussed, that is something that could never happen in Madden (even though you can see players connect in a similar manner) but it does happen in the NFL more often than we like to admit. I also understand why the NFL would want to pull away from that image (especially with all the recent early retirements and the result of the CTE discussions) and I am glad that NFL Blitz style hits are gone, it still doesn't change the fact that there is no weight to hits like in the article.

If you are going to program the game to allow hits like this and you are going to talk about adding penalties for it to make it realistic then you NEED to make it realistic with injuries and the consequences tied to those kinds of hits. You can't pick and choose what is realistic and what isn't and thus is also the perfect time to discuss adding a system for player suspensions in the game (which has happened a lot as of late and a lot of Franchise commissioners would like a feature like this for players who break rules) which I know will never see its way into the game even though it is realistic. I'm really all for making the game more true to life, however if you are going to do so, you need to do it completely and not in half measures.
 
# 25 Junior Moe @ 04/25/16 05:07 PM
I hate to say it but I really don't. I don't want NFL Blitz or anything, but some big, occasionally crushing, hits are good to me. I mean, it's football. I get the player safety aspect but it's also a game. I watch footage from the old NFL days on NFL network and i cant lie, sometimes i wanna crank Madden and bust some heads after watching those old Steeler and Raider defenses. Maybe give us a slider so that we may tweak it to our liking.
 
# 26 half-fast @ 04/25/16 06:52 PM
I can agree with most of the post, but it's almost as if you're saying that physics-based is not the way to go because it looks bad, as if they've "completed" improving it. It will get better every year. EA FIFA(soccer wasnt mentioned, erroneously) went through an odd year or two when they were developing their new contact engine. I mean, its far from perfect still, ridiculous animations happen, but it looks pretty good in the overall, so much so that I, a regular soccer fan can enjoy the tackles.

Ive been wanting companies to get rid of animations for years. Theyre holding graphical fidelity up, but hold down the realism of the game. Eventually, everything all contact in any sports game needs to be fully dynamic and physics based - its the only way of the future. Id be willing to keep graphics the way they are now, and have EA, 2K, SCEA and the like only work on physics and AI. I'm so done with canned animations and limited outcomes.

As for leaving out the dangerous plays? I think if it's in the game, we should see it in the simulation representation. There's only a matter of time before games get so good, that youll be playing a "safe" version of your game, that has all kinds of dynamic, realistic, surprising and regular outcomes that you could ask for, but you'll be watching hockey one day and think, "Why wasnt that high-stick and injury I saw in the the real game in the video game?". Sadly, fewer injuries and dangerous plays = few outcomes, and is not realistic.
 
# 27 mrprice33 @ 04/25/16 06:54 PM
Not to speak for the author, but I think the issue highlighted via the embedded video is the late cleanup hits that come well after the whistle.
 
# 28 roadman @ 04/25/16 08:16 PM
My comment was directed at people wanting more big hits.

EA needs to clean up the physics system.
 
# 29 mrprice33 @ 04/25/16 08:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by half-fast
I can agree with most of the post, but it's almost as if you're saying that physics-based is not the way to go because it looks bad, as if they've "completed" improving it. It will get better every year. EA FIFA(soccer wasnt mentioned, erroneously) went through an odd year or two when they were developing their new contact engine. I mean, its far from perfect still, ridiculous animations happen, but it looks pretty good in the overall, so much so that I, a regular soccer fan can enjoy the tackles.

Ive been wanting companies to get rid of animations for years. Theyre holding graphical fidelity up, but hold down the realism of the game. Eventually, everything all contact in any sports game needs to be fully dynamic and physics based - its the only way of the future. Id be willing to keep graphics the way they are now, and have EA, 2K, SCEA and the like only work on physics and AI. I'm so done with canned animations and limited outcomes.

As for leaving out the dangerous plays? I think if it's in the game, we should see it in the simulation representation. There's only a matter of time before games get so good, that youll be playing a "safe" version of your game, that has all kinds of dynamic, realistic, surprising and regular outcomes that you could ask for, but you'll be watching hockey one day and think, "Why wasnt that high-stick and injury I saw in the the real game in the video game?". Sadly, fewer injuries and dangerous plays = few outcomes, and is not realistic.
I don't see how you can get rid of animations completely in any game. Even Backbreaker limited its physics implementation to collisions. Players still have to run, throw, attempt to catch, swat, etc. You need animations for all that stuff.
 
# 30 jfsolo @ 04/25/16 08:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CM Hooe
I think what could help this is if there were a greater sense of self-preservation for individual players embedded in the physics, they should try to shield themselves better when they get into big pileups and in 100% certain "I am getting tackled" situations.

If the players were more actively defending themselves we might see fewer unrealistically violent situations (relative to the real-life NFL, at least).
This would add so much to the game IMO. The fear of getting injured is a very big part of sports. So many plays are not made because of the very normal desire to avoid getting hurt badly. It needs to play a bigger role in all sports games. And if users don't exercise reasonable caution with players that they are controlling, then those players should be getting injured a lot more and with more severe injuries too.
 
# 31 jpdavis82 @ 04/25/16 09:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by l8knight1
Bring back the big hits and realism. Something was removed in 16 that totally nerfs my pleasure of making a receiver across the middle pay for his actions. Bring back the helmets being nocked off. They come off in real life for Pete's sake.


Does anyone even remember the last Madden where helmets popped off? I would say maybe 05 or 06, hasn't been in the game for years.
 
# 32 bigd51 @ 04/25/16 09:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrprice33
I don't see how you can get rid of animations completely in any game. Even Backbreaker limited its physics implementation to collisions. Players still have to run, throw, attempt to catch, swat, etc. You need animations for all that stuff.
In his defense, he did specify all contact:

Quote:
Originally Posted by half-fast

Ive been wanting companies to get rid of animations for years. Theyre holding graphical fidelity up, but hold down the realism of the game. Eventually, everything all contact in any sports game needs to be fully dynamic and physics based - its the only way of the future. Id be willing to keep graphics the way they are now, and have EA, 2K, SCEA and the like only work on physics and AI. I'm so done with canned animations and limited outcomes.
 
# 33 half-fast @ 04/25/16 11:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrprice33
I don't see how you can get rid of animations completely in any game. Even Backbreaker limited its physics implementation to collisions. Players still have to run, throw, attempt to catch, swat, etc. You need animations for all that stuff.
You actually can get rid of all animations, 100%, but it takes far too much processing power to do it in any kind of meaningful way at the moment, in my opinion.

You can literally create a wireframe person that you can train to learn how to walk, jump, turn, whatever, and the ai has to do the math to make the limbs do exactly that. Add in some of the player stats and some slight random variation and you can literally get a muscle pull that is legit, basically just by turning awkwardly, not a random muscle pull dice roll.
 
# 34 mestevo @ 04/26/16 12:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by half-fast
You actually can get rid of all animations, 100%, but it takes far too much processing power to do it in any kind of meaningful way at the moment, in my opinion.

You can literally create a wireframe person that you can train to learn how to walk, jump, turn, whatever, and the ai has to do the math to make the limbs do exactly that. Add in some of the player stats and some slight random variation and you can literally get a muscle pull that is legit, basically just by turning awkwardly, not a random muscle pull dice roll.
Except you can pull a muscle without anything awkward. Your season can end on a cut that you do/practice several dozen times over the course of a week.

Don't see why a dice roll triggers some of you, it will never go away, just ideally be influenced by ability/stats.
 
# 35 half-fast @ 04/26/16 12:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mestevo
Except you can pull a muscle without anything awkward. Your season can end on a cut that you do/practice several dozen times over the course of a week.

Don't see why a dice roll triggers some of you, it will never go away, just ideally be influenced by ability/stats.
I dont believe I said it bothered me, just that physics based is better, and it is. In college I had a project where I had to create a wire-frame, self-calculating stick man. It's creepy at how lifelike the movements are, even though its just a stickman. Eventually, sports game will lose animations, the tech is there,and has been for a while, its just not quite practical yet, and games dont have enough competition to make it happen at the moment.
 
# 36 Bigolenutz @ 04/26/16 01:22 AM
As a Offline CFM only mode player the addition of penalties for late/illegal hits could add some realism to the game, but I don't see it flying with the NFL to get it in the game. Also this would open a can of worms of having ratings for sportsmanship/character which the NFLPA would have none of.

Personally EA have a ton of other more important issues to resolve before tackling this, like the getting the clock to stop when I run out of bounds, OC & DC's, (insert features that have been taken out of previous games)
 
# 37 roadman @ 04/26/16 07:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigolenutz

Personally EA have a ton of other more important issues to resolve before tackling this, like the getting the clock to stop when I run out of bounds, OC & DC's, (insert features that have been taken out of previous games)
The clock stopping when running out of bounds? I'm pretty sure EA is getting the ruling right if this is what you are referring to.

The official ruling that the play clock shouldn't resume until the ball is hiked is only when there is less than 2 minutes left in the first half and under 5 minutes in the second half.

Scrimmage Down
Article 2Following any timeout (3-36), the game clock shall be started on a scrimmage down when the ball is
next snapped, except in the following situations:
(a) Whenever a runner goes out of bounds on a play from scrimmage, the game clock is started when
an official spots the ball at the inbounds spot, and the Referee gives the signal to start the game
clock, except that the clock will start on the snap:
(1) after a change of possession;
(2) after the two-minute warning of the first half; or
(3) inside the last five minutes of the second half.

http://static.nfl.com/static/content...ame_Timing.pdf
 
# 38 SolidSquid @ 04/26/16 10:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrprice33
Not to speak for the author, but I think the issue highlighted via the embedded video is the late cleanup hits that come well after the whistle.
The thing is the hit technically wasn't late bc the ball carrier was "resting" on a tacklers legs so to the game the ball carrier is not down and the whistle hasn't blown which is why the second defender flies in like that. It's important to remember the reason they added his "clean up" hits is bc we were all tired of seeing 10 defenders just standing around while a tackle animation played out.
 
# 39 mrprice33 @ 04/26/16 10:57 AM
You can clearly hear the whistle a full second before the defender launches himself into the receiver.
 
# 40 DaveDQ @ 04/26/16 12:46 PM
I feel like Madden 16 is the best Madden yet (in terms of physics). It has been a long time coming too. And, I am concerned that they can't handle it. I don't mean to be disrespectful towards developers etc.. I just don't trust that EA Sports can handle incorporating illegal hits and then having the refs throwing a flag for such things. So, I'd rather see them continue to polish physics and continue to build on what they have right now, then to veer off an include an illegal hit system. And I certainly don't want to see the game go back to defenders rolling off of players instead of tackling.

I also feel like the article leans towards making a big deal out of nothing. How many of us play this game and seriously think this is a major issue? "The days of" rant is a bit much for me. Is this something to be that passionate about?
 


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