NBA 2K15: Fixing Broken Shot Forms Exposes Flaw in Shooting System

Feature Article

Submitted on: 03/23/2015 by Jayson Young

NBA 2K15's fourth patch isn't available yet on Xbox One, but PlayStation 4 and PC owners have now had a week and a half to experience its effects.

Developer Visual Concepts hasn't published an official change log (and doesn't plan to, until Xbox One users receive the update), but Gameplay Director Mike Wang has already confirmed a few changes to NBA 2K15's shooting system on the Operation Sports forums:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Wang

To give some insight on the actual tuning that I made, here's essentially what happened:

I tuned the baseline [shooting] values that are shared by both human and CPU-controlled players.

The shot heuristics are pretty complex at a basic level. Pre-patch, the numbers looked something like this for a decent shooter at mid-range:

Wide open = 45%
Fully Contested = 35%
Heavily Contested = 10%

That's why many people complained that "being open" didn't really matter much, and they were right. Post-patch, that same shooter is now:

Wide open = 60%
Fully Contested = 20%
Heavily Contested = 10%

So over the course of the game, assuming both teams shoot an even spread of open and contested jumpers, you should've seen zero change to your end-of-game shot percentages when comparing pre- and post-patch. But if you trend hard one way or the other (all your shots are open or all your shots are contested), you would've seen a very noticeable change.

If both teams play solid defense, I can believe that a player might go 80% from the field from time to time, but it definitely shouldn't be the norm. Also, in case you're wondering, I didn't touch three-point percentages at all, only layup, close and mid-range values.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Wang

I also fixed the "glitched" shots being unable to get perfect release, so that will factor in as well.

While both of these changes are welcome, finally being able to achieve a perfect "green" release with every shooting form in the game has caused field goal percentages to skyrocket, post-patch. The reason is that green release shots go in roughly 99% of the time in NBA 2K15, regardless of what difficulty the game is set to, or how poor the shooter's attributes are. In the estimated 200 to 300 games I've completed since October, twice is the amount of times I've seen one of my players miss a green release shot.

Both occasions occurred in MyTeam's Domination mode. The first was a wide-open corner three from "Sapphire" DeMar DeRozan (84 standing three-point rating). The other was a lightly contested post-up fadeaway from just outside the paint with Tyler Zeller (68 post fade rating).

Those are the only misses, out of the hundreds of green releases I've had this year. Many of the successful shots even managed to come from athletes whose shooting attributes are in the 70s and 60s. Rajon Rondo's free-throw rating, for instance, is a 63 in MyTeam, but I've had games on the hardest difficulty setting (Hall of Fame) where I was able to hit 10 of 10 from the line with Rondo, just because his shooting form is so easy to time.

The near-perfect success rate of green shots, unfortunately, cannot be changed by lowering shooting sliders. It's just something that's hard-coded into the game, and needs to be seriously reconsidered for NBA 2K16.

I've always preferred a shooting system that favors attribute ratings over release timing. And if I play NBA 2K15 offline, I can still have that experience by enabling "ratings only" shooting. But online, only one option exists: "timing-based" shooting. So if I want to play any mode in NBA 2K15 besides MyGM, MyLeague, or MyCareer, all I can do is cringe while average -- or even subpar -- shooters consistently drain buckets that extend well beyond their natural abilities, because a user has mastered the timing of players' shooting animations.

NBA 2K16 needs to move to a system where user timing has a much more subtle impact on shot success, so that a defensive, pass-first point guard like Rajon Rondo can't hit every single attempt he puts up. Instead of what's in-place now, I'd propose a system where:

Perfect release = The player's normal assigned shot rating.
Slightly early/Slightly late release = Three points deducted from the player's shooting attribute.
Late/Early release = Nine points deducted from the player's shooting attribute.

I'm not sure what the ideal deduction values would be, but that's definitely something Visual Concepts could certainly tweak to perfection, with a little testing.

What do you think of the shooting changes in NBA 2K15?

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Member Comments

# 21 LorenzoDC @ 03/23/15 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bornindamecca


	Thanks, Lorenzo, hope to see you on Friday!

Unfortunately, the time slot is just bad for me. That's family time. My partner and I go out for dinner Friday nights eastern time and then we watch something streaming or some rental.

It's the routine. After 12+ years, I don't break what's works!

So I catch up on Youtube over the weekend.

# 22 tril @ 03/23/15 05:47 PM

do not get rid of user timing

a way to resolve this issue is:
the perfect timing needs to be tied to a smaller or bigger window. kind of like the fielding mechanics in baseball.
as of right now that window is the same.

On the higher levels the window would be smaller and less forgiving. the shooting sliders should effect this window also.
the difficulty in this would be getting the timing window to work with the shooter release point.

In addition, 2k needs to really re-emphasize the shooter hot spots, like they did I believe in 2k11 or 12.
defenders should effect this window also.

# 23 NINJAK2 @ 03/23/15 06:36 PM

I'm on x1 so no patch yet. For those irritated about the shooting %'s does changing setting to real fg% help bring them down somewhat?

# 24 Lord Bonium @ 03/23/15 06:37 PM

Why not just do something like this (if it's possible to program, i wouldn't know):

Perfect release --> no effect
Slightly early/late --> - 3
Early/late --> - 6
Very early/late --> - 9

Combined with:

Wide open (no defender within about 8 feet) --> + 3
Open (no defender within about 4 feet) --> no effect
Slightly contested (defender within 2-4 feet) --> - 3
Contested (defender is within inches) --> - 6
Heavily contested (multiple defenders within inches) --> -9

# 25 scottyp180 @ 03/23/15 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke Skywalker


	Have all 3 shot mechanics in the game. Real Player % = Ratings Based Shot Meter = Green Releases are automatic (casual and online modes would use this) User Timing = Green Release is true player rating, -3 slightly late/early, -9 very late/early. Also let the sliders 50 be actual ratings, why must the Midrange be at 45 and the 3PT be at 47. Beef up the defense 2k, let the default value truly represent the player.

Something like this seems accurate. Timing should have an effect. In my mind what is the point of me playing if ybe shots I take are going to be predetermined by ratings. At the same time I understand the purists that don't want to see a player like Rondo lighting it up like steph curry because someone has mastered his shot.

Like you said the best solution is to give usboptions and the three you suggest are just about perfect. Real percentages for those who want the most accurate results. Strictly timing for users that prefer to have full control. And a final one that sort of takes in account both.

# 26 duhitsrandy @ 03/23/15 08:39 PM

I feel like based off his explanation of what was tuned it was a step in the right direction, but too far. a 15% swing in open shot success seemed to be a little too much, maybe 10% wouldve been better

# 27 Jrocc23 @ 03/23/15 08:47 PM

I don't remember shooting being a problem in past 2Ks. There definitely wasn't no complaining about how broken shooting were and it being too easy to make shots.

Just go back to how it was in past 2Ks like 2K11. I believe you can still incorporate the shot meter. Just base the shot percentages and all the other factors to how it used to be.

# 28 The 24th Letter @ 03/23/15 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jrocc23


	I don't remember shooting being a problem before. There definitely wasn't no complaining about how broken shooting were and it being too easy to make shots..

Before what? The patch.?

There was definitely complaining about shooting....just the opposite side of the spectrum. This thread is good stuff though, some really good ideas in here..

# 29 Jrocc23 @ 03/23/15 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The 24th Letter


	Before what? The patch.? There was definitely complaining about shooting....just the opposite side of the spectrum. This thread is good stuff though, some really good ideas in here..

Should have elaborated more. I mean in past 2Ks there wasn't this big of an issue about shooting. Mainly 2K11 and back.

I've also been curious on when you get hot, how much does that boosts your percentages on making shots. I've heard it does for awhile, but I've never really noticed that on 2K15.

# 30 JRxPHANTOM @ 03/23/15 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tetoleetd


	look what we have here. we have an official post by OS about this issue. and yall tried to tell me i was crazy or playing the game wrong when i brought this issue up right after the patch lol. smh.

Same here. The shooting % could have been adjusted, that's one thing, but to change the green releases to make them super easy to get ruins the game. I sure hope 2K tweaks this before they are done with this game. Honestly, when something gets fixed (such as regression) there is always another unnecessary problem that 2K brings out.

# 31 Caelumfang @ 03/23/15 10:29 PM

Like I said since Day 1, the shot meter, and everything being tied to it, was a terrible idea. 2k14's shot system was just fine, the only thing needing to be tweaked being airballs (especially on A+ releases). You can thank the Youtubers and other high profile players crying about 'omg if I shoot an excellent A+, it should always fall!'

# 32 JRxPHANTOM @ 03/23/15 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caelumfang


	Like I said since Day 1, the shot meter, and everything being tied to it, was a terrible idea. 2k14's shot system was just fine, the only thing needing to be tweaked being airballs (especially on A+ releases). You can thank the Youtubers and other high profile players crying about 'omg if I shoot an excellent A+, it should always fall!'

But it wasn't until patch 4 where this became a game breaking problem. Up to patch 3, the shooting was fine for user timing. People could adjust sliders to make shots fall in more or less and the green releases weren't so common.

# 33 Caelumfang @ 03/23/15 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRxPHANTOM


	But it wasn't until patch 4 where this became a game breaking problem. Up to patch 3, the shooting was fine for user timing. People could adjust sliders to make shots fall in more or less and the green releases weren't so common.

You can't adjust sliders online, or in MyCareer. And the shot system prior to Patch 3 was atrocious, especially for online. Most shots outside of a green release were bricks, especially on the wrong end of a run.

# 34 ghettog @ 03/23/15 11:41 PM

In terms of the shooting it did more damage than good imo. I mainly play in MyPark and I can make nearly 100% of my open mid range shots now. Its very easy to get a perfect release now. Plenty of people I play basically now just dribble left to right until they get some space for mid range shots all game. Any space and that shot is going in. You can still defend it if you can get in someones face but the second they get that open look by just dribbling left to right or maybe using a pick that shot is going in.

Some people also do the dribble left to right thing with 3's but that tends to be less successful. However 3s do go in at a higher rate now as well.

# 35 JRxPHANTOM @ 03/24/15 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghettog


	In terms of the shooting it did more damage than good imo. I mainly play in MyPark and I can make nearly 100% of my open mid range shots now. Its very easy to get a perfect release now. Plenty of people I play basically now just dribble left to right until they get some space for mid range shots all game. Any space and that shot is going in. You can still defend it if you can get in someones face but the second they get that open look by just dribbling left to right or maybe using a pick that shot is going in. Some people also do the dribble left to right thing with 3's but that tends to be less successful. However 3s do go in at a higher rate now as well.

Offline and online are broken right now because of shooting/green releases. 2K can't leave us hanging until 2K16.

# 36 bls @ 03/24/15 02:51 AM

Go back to 2k11 formula. Was the best out of all 2ks to me and you could really distinguish a good player from a bad.

# 37 Dlee3 @ 03/24/15 04:02 AM

Didn't 2k last year made it harder to shoot at the beginning then fell under pressure when too many people complain and made it easier?

# 38 bumpyface @ 03/24/15 06:50 AM

I've been so frustrated with this game I haven't picked it up and played since yesterday. I did notice more shots going in though. I think 2k needs to start testing their games earlier prior to release in order to make the necessary tweaks. Also, someone commented on online not being broken. I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you. I haven't even touched the park but I can tell you quick match up is broken. The lag online is a game breaker, and you can only experience this atrocious lag, if the game doesn't drop right after tip off. While offline is a pleasant experience for the most part, I think it's safe to say that 2k has a lot of work ahead of them. I am so disappointed with the next gen basketball experience right now. In the words of Mr. Frank White, "I hoped we could do better."

# 39 Sundown @ 03/24/15 11:26 AM

This is pretty much what we feared when it was first announced that the shot system would be more skill based and less random-- that perfect releases could be gamed and glitched to produce unrealistic shooting percentages. We were assured that the shot difficulty was tuned so that they would produce believable outcomes, and for the most part, this was true.

But if the tuning was done with broken shots or if the patch somehow made timing perfect releases easier, fixing the shots seems to have made our nightmare scenario a reality-- that the influence of the simulation engine could effectively be minimized or bypassed with practice. Just like the FT game can be (I shoot like 70-80% at the line with Andrew Bogut). As I understand it, sliders don't even help, as sliders control the simulation engine, and greens effectively renders it moot altogether.

Also there seems to have been way too much fixation over getting green releases. In my opinion, green releases should either not be an automatic make, or green releases should be awarded Vegas video slots style or similar to a Dave and Buster timing game-- where even with perfect timing greens are not guaranteed, but are distributed at a rate that produces somewhat realistic outcomes with some fudging under the hood factoring timing, defense, movement, ratings, etc. So while you aim to get green releases, it would be numerically impossible to bypass the calculations 2K performs to represent believable basketball long term.

I've disabled automatic updates for patches on my XBox One since this sounds to be near game breaking according to numerous reports-- especially since I've been having some great games recently.

# 40 stillfeelme @ 03/24/15 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sundown


	This is pretty much what we feared when it was first announced that the shot system would be more skill based and less random-- that perfect releases could be gamed and glitched to produce unrealistic shooting percentages. We were assured that the shot difficulty was tuned so that they would produce believable outcomes, and for the most part, this was true. But if the tuning was done with broken shots or if the patch somehow made timing perfect releases easier, fixing the shots seems to have made our nightmare scenario a reality-- that the influence of the simulation engine could effectively be minimized or bypassed with practice. Just like the FT game can be (I shoot like 70-80% at the line with Andrew Bogut). As I understand it, sliders don't even help, as sliders control the simulation engine, and greens effectively renders it moot altogether. Also there seems to have been way too much fixation over getting green releases. In my opinion, green releases should either not be an automatic make, or green releases should be awarded Vegas video slots style or similar to a Dave and Buster timing game-- where even with perfect timing greens are not guaranteed, but are distributed at a rate that produces somewhat realistic outcomes with some fudging under the hood factoring timing, defense, movement, ratings, etc. So while you aim to get green releases, it would be numerically impossible to bypass the calculations 2K performs to represent believable basketball long term. I've disabled automatic updates for patches on my XBox One since this sounds to be near game breaking according to numerous reports-- especially since I've been having some great games recently.

I definitely agree that they tuned the game on broken shots. If they would have had the shots fixed I actually think they would have scrapped the idea of perfect release equals 99% success. They tried to make it too much user skill when the user skill can outweigh the skill of the actual shooter and realism goes out the window. They also made things much worse by giving a higher open bonus for shooting.

The skill based shooting came from people missing A+ releases from 2K14. This is what I said in the other thread.

Quote:


	So Beluba fixed the shot releases and he also added an % increase for being open. The combination of those two would make it extremely easy to shoot and I don't even have the patch but I knew this would happen because I was able to raise my %'s just by fixing a team's "glitched" players. 2K16 recommendation The shot system needs to be more like 2K14 where perfect release does not equal 100% success or 99%. They need some tweaks in the roster though. Your success should be controlled by limited to the % you shoot by stats combined with how close you can get to perfect release. So say you are a 50% from three when open that is the maximum you should get when you hit perfect green release. You shoot 35% when contested based off stats so when you are contested the maximum even with perfect is 35%. I said this prior to 2K15 and they did manage to get some of into 2K15. They need to add a wide open rating, shoot off the dribbble rating and contested rating for shooting. That is the bare minimum. Contesting shots doesn't impact every player the same way. Example Kyle Korver shoots 54% when open from 3pt and 44% when contested tight. Curry 46% open, 40% contested tight. I do understand why they did what they did but I think they will have to tune the game to get it right or it will be a slider adjustment. I think this would be the best for 2K16

I am not even sure this can be fixed by slider if you are a shot timing guy. Sounds like you have to go to. real fg%

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