NBA 2K15: Fixing Broken Shot Forms Exposes Flaw in Shooting System

Feature Article

Submitted on: 03/23/2015 by Jayson Young

NBA 2K15's fourth patch isn't available yet on Xbox One, but PlayStation 4 and PC owners have now had a week and a half to experience its effects.

Developer Visual Concepts hasn't published an official change log (and doesn't plan to, until Xbox One users receive the update), but Gameplay Director Mike Wang has already confirmed a few changes to NBA 2K15's shooting system on the Operation Sports forums:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Wang

To give some insight on the actual tuning that I made, here's essentially what happened:

I tuned the baseline [shooting] values that are shared by both human and CPU-controlled players.

The shot heuristics are pretty complex at a basic level. Pre-patch, the numbers looked something like this for a decent shooter at mid-range:

Wide open = 45%
Fully Contested = 35%
Heavily Contested = 10%

That's why many people complained that "being open" didn't really matter much, and they were right. Post-patch, that same shooter is now:

Wide open = 60%
Fully Contested = 20%
Heavily Contested = 10%

So over the course of the game, assuming both teams shoot an even spread of open and contested jumpers, you should've seen zero change to your end-of-game shot percentages when comparing pre- and post-patch. But if you trend hard one way or the other (all your shots are open or all your shots are contested), you would've seen a very noticeable change.

If both teams play solid defense, I can believe that a player might go 80% from the field from time to time, but it definitely shouldn't be the norm. Also, in case you're wondering, I didn't touch three-point percentages at all, only layup, close and mid-range values.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Wang

I also fixed the "glitched" shots being unable to get perfect release, so that will factor in as well.

While both of these changes are welcome, finally being able to achieve a perfect "green" release with every shooting form in the game has caused field goal percentages to skyrocket, post-patch. The reason is that green release shots go in roughly 99% of the time in NBA 2K15, regardless of what difficulty the game is set to, or how poor the shooter's attributes are. In the estimated 200 to 300 games I've completed since October, twice is the amount of times I've seen one of my players miss a green release shot.

Both occasions occurred in MyTeam's Domination mode. The first was a wide-open corner three from "Sapphire" DeMar DeRozan (84 standing three-point rating). The other was a lightly contested post-up fadeaway from just outside the paint with Tyler Zeller (68 post fade rating).

Those are the only misses, out of the hundreds of green releases I've had this year. Many of the successful shots even managed to come from athletes whose shooting attributes are in the 70s and 60s. Rajon Rondo's free-throw rating, for instance, is a 63 in MyTeam, but I've had games on the hardest difficulty setting (Hall of Fame) where I was able to hit 10 of 10 from the line with Rondo, just because his shooting form is so easy to time.

The near-perfect success rate of green shots, unfortunately, cannot be changed by lowering shooting sliders. It's just something that's hard-coded into the game, and needs to be seriously reconsidered for NBA 2K16.

I've always preferred a shooting system that favors attribute ratings over release timing. And if I play NBA 2K15 offline, I can still have that experience by enabling "ratings only" shooting. But online, only one option exists: "timing-based" shooting. So if I want to play any mode in NBA 2K15 besides MyGM, MyLeague, or MyCareer, all I can do is cringe while average -- or even subpar -- shooters consistently drain buckets that extend well beyond their natural abilities, because a user has mastered the timing of players' shooting animations.

NBA 2K16 needs to move to a system where user timing has a much more subtle impact on shot success, so that a defensive, pass-first point guard like Rajon Rondo can't hit every single attempt he puts up. Instead of what's in-place now, I'd propose a system where:

Perfect release = The player's normal assigned shot rating.
Slightly early/Slightly late release = Three points deducted from the player's shooting attribute.
Late/Early release = Nine points deducted from the player's shooting attribute.

I'm not sure what the ideal deduction values would be, but that's definitely something Visual Concepts could certainly tweak to perfection, with a little testing.

What do you think of the shooting changes in NBA 2K15?

NBA 2K15 Videos

Member Comments

# 1 Taer @ 03/23/15 12:17 PM

I agree that the influence of user timing should have a more subtle effect on overall results. I also agree that in any system within 2K that real player percentage should always form the core basis.

MyCareer's inability to have slider control is somewhat mitigated by use of real player percentage shooting but it still suffers from the lack of an ability to fine tune gameplay.

The only real solution is to separate online from offline play - mixing them together only frustrates everyone when it comes to MC.

Edit: I will add this - If 2k were to follow a tighter, more true to real field goal percentage system there would be a lot of complaining from people who believe that if they had a "perfect" release then it should have gone in. 2k would face all sorts of whine to go along with the cheese.

# 2 zrohman @ 03/23/15 12:18 PM

I always thought 2k overfavored the random luck of the draw vs the skill of the person shooting. However I think green releases are a completely argument.

They should probably go in at a much lower rate. 75%?

And maybe a few less greenies.

# 3 Luke Skywalker @ 03/23/15 12:36 PM

Have all 3 shot mechanics in the game.

Real Player % = Ratings Based

Shot Meter = Green Releases are automatic (casual and online modes would use this)

User Timing = Green Release is true player rating, -3 slightly late/early, -9 very late/early.

Also let the sliders 50 be actual ratings, why must the Midrange be at 45 and the 3PT be at 47. Beef up the defense 2k, let the default value truly represent the player.

# 4 Tonyattia @ 03/23/15 12:55 PM

I agree, also I think other things that should lower the rating besides timing, are being off the dribble and contested like they already have, but the height of the player shooting and of the contested should play a part in it. You can be all over Kd but if your 6 ft it shouldn't really affect you as my h as a taller players contest would

# 5 Pokes404 @ 03/23/15 01:02 PM

I like the idea of perfect releases equating to an automatic bucket. It gives players the feeling that they actually made the shot. However, there are 3 things that need to be added. They need to be more difficult to achieve, they should only be possible for players with a 75+ shooting rating for the situation, and they should only be possible if the shooter is wide open (even the slightest contest from the defense should make a perfect release impossible).

This leaves the possibility for "perfect releases" in the game, but puts more weight on ratings and less on user timing.

# 6 Bornindamecca @ 03/23/15 01:03 PM

You shouldn't be eligible for a perfect release if you're below 80 from the respective range. Timing for perfect release between 80-85 should be pretty tight. Above 85, you should prioritize contesting that player. Above 87, open shot percentages should remain the same, but contested shots should receive a 5-10% boost.

None of this works without a big boost to defensive movement and responsiveness to the shot contest buttons. With defensive movement still being egregiously bad, VC should have opted for a more moderate nerf.

# 7 thedream2k13 @ 03/23/15 01:08 PM

user timing and shot ratings should always play a part in shot success

# 8 LorenzoDC @ 03/23/15 01:11 PM

Money quotes form the main OS article:

Quote:


	While both of these changes are welcome, finally being able to achieve a perfect "green" release with every shooting form in the game has caused field goal percentages to skyrocket, post-patch. The reason is that green release shots go in roughly 99% of the time in NBA 2K15, regardless of what difficulty the game is set to, or how poor the shooter's attributes are. . . . The near-perfect success rate of green shots, unfortunately, cannot be changed by lowering shooting sliders. It's just something that's hard-coded into the game, and needs to be seriously reconsidered for NBA 2K16.

Yup. Sadly, this seems to be true. It's great 2k even attempted a patch this late in the cycle, but it has created unanticipated problems, moving the game forward in some ways and backward in others.

I hope the devs don't take a lesson from this that says, "Don't support the game late in the cycle." When we give feedback, let's try to make that clear, and appreciate that they even tried to fix releases, which we all asked them to do though many threads.

# 9 LorenzoDC @ 03/23/15 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bornindamecca


	You shouldn't be eligible for a perfect release if you're below 80 from the respective range. Timing for perfect release between 80-85 should be pretty tight. Above 85, you should prioritize contesting that player. Above 87, open shot percentages should remain the same, but contested shots should receive a 5-10% boost. None of this works without a big boost to defensive movement and responsiveness to the shot contest buttons. With defensive movement still being egregiously bad, VC should have opted for a more moderate nerf.

Interesting idea.

Just wanted to shout out. I really enjoy your SimHangout participation.

# 10 bwright25 @ 03/23/15 01:25 PM

Great article. What does MYteam mode use? They dont use ratings based?!?!?! It kind of makes the whole upgraded players pointless. There is no need to go after a onyx version of the card if a lesser version will just shoot as good.

# 11 threattonature @ 03/23/15 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke Skywalker


	Have all 3 shot mechanics in the game. Real Player % = Ratings Based Shot Meter = Green Releases are automatic (casual and online modes would use this) User Timing = Green Release is true player rating, -3 slightly late/early, -9 very late/early. Also let the sliders 50 be actual ratings, why must the Midrange be at 45 and the 3PT be at 47. Beef up the defense 2k, let the default value truly represent the player.

I would love to see the user timing you mentioned. Currently if you have a player's shot down perfect you can be a monster with him even though his ratings don't dictate that you should be.

# 12 kackle85 @ 03/23/15 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwright25


	Great article. What does MYteam mode use? They dont use ratings based?!?!?! It kind of makes the whole upgraded players pointless. There is no need to go after a onyx version of the card if a lesser version will just shoot as good.

Ratings do matter until your shot release is "perfect" at that point its pretty much automatic. The probably is its too easy right now to hit that perfect release.

# 13 capitolrf @ 03/23/15 02:54 PM

I think if the shot heuristics went back to :

Wide open = 45%
Fully Contested = 35%
Heavily Contested = 10%

Instead of :

Wide open = 60%
Fully Contested = 20%
Heavily Contested = 10%

It will be fine, since the "shot glitches has been fixed". In my opinion it's not the perfect releases that is creating high percentages. It's the fact that more slightly early/late shots are falling at a higher clip.

# 14 TUSS11 @ 03/23/15 03:07 PM

Like others have said, just make green releases harder to achieve.

# 15 dirkit247 @ 03/23/15 03:36 PM

You can't be serious. How can you possibly prefer the shooting to be based more off user rating than user timing? That's so ridiculous and it irritates me that someone would even say that. 2k is already non user controlled enough and you're telling me you want it to be LESS user controlled? How does that make any sense? Every game is supposed to be user skill based with consideration to the players individual attributes, not just "oh, let me tap this button and let the player decide if he wants to do this or not". 2k is already 80 percent non user controlled, where even the running has been controlled by the developers, just because they refuse to implement a physics based system where players collide realistically in order to stop the player from going a certain direction. Instead, we have to deal with the developers controlling the running, making the players hesitate to run up the court just so you can't exploit fast breaks. Do not get me wrong, I don't want to just run up the court and score, but I don't want it to be because I CAN'T run because the developers made the game so that I can't do it even if I wanted to, rather than implementing a system that's more realistic where the defender alters where I go by getting in the way and colliding. There are so much more things You can't be serious. How can you possibly prefer the shooting to be based more off user rating than user timing? That's so ridiculous and it irritates me that someone would even say that. 2k is already non user controlled enough and you're telling me you want it to be LESS user controlled? How does that make any sense? Every game is supposed to be user skill based with consideration to the players individual attributes, not just "oh, let me tap this button and let the player decide if he wants to do this or not". 2k is already 80 percent non user controlled, where even the running has been controlled by the developers, just because they refuse to implement a physics based system where players collide realistically in order to stop the player from going a certain direction. Instead, we have to deal with the developers controlling the running, making the players hesitate to run up the court just so you can't exploit fast breaks. Do not get me wrong, I don't want to just run up the court and score, but I don't want it to be because I CAN'T run because the developers made the game so that I can't do it even if I wanted to, rather than implementing a system that's more realistic where the defender alters where I go by getting in the way and colliding. There are so much more things that are irritating about this game, but I'll stop now before I get banned just for wording my opinion. are irritating about this game, but I'll stop now before I get banned just for wording my opinion.

# 16 Bornindamecca @ 03/23/15 04:32 PM

Ratings don't dictate the outcome, they dictate the best possible outcome, or the ceiling of a players' potential. Right now, shot release is playing more of a factor than ratings in that regard, which breaks the effect of player specificity.

Players should be rewarded for:
-Getting good shooters open(lenient margin of error regarding shot release)
-Forcing the opponent to take too many shots with mediocre players
-Tightly contesting shots on anyone
-Even more so for contesting shots on mediocre shooters

Players with excellent stick skills see the benefit in that they take advantage of all good opportunities. If you don't create a good opportunity (offensively, a reasonably open shot with a star player in his comfort zone, or a very open shot for a lesser skilled player) you should not have your shot release skills bail you out very often.

Green releases need to be capped according to fatigue, player rating, badges and defensive positioning.

Thanks, Lorenzo, hope to see you on Friday!

# 17 tetoleetd @ 03/23/15 04:45 PM

look what we have here. we have an official post by OS about this issue.

and yall tried to tell me i was crazy or playing the game wrong when i brought this issue up right after the patch lol. smh.

# 18 tetoleetd @ 03/23/15 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelers99_58_36


	"If both teams play solid defense, I can believe that a player might go 80% from the field from time to time, but it definitely shouldn't be the norm." WHAT!?!?! 80%!?!?! That is unheard of... that's insane... it's ludicrous. If you're telling me that from time to time a player might be able to hit 80% of their shots with their team throughout a full game then that's just ridiculous. If they think that from time to time teams hit 80% of their shots in a game then it's no wonder why shooting is joke in this game now, based on that logic. Also there is no way in hell that this is true: Wide open = 45% Fully Contested = 35% Heavily Contested = 10% Wide open = 60% Fully Contested = 20% Heavily Contested = 10%

they said that a PLAYER may occasionally make 80% of his shots, not a whole team.

and yes that does happen quite frequently in the NBA where a player has a game where he barely misses.

but yes, the shooting is still messed up and needs to be fixed.

right now im stuck. ive been trying to play on hall of fame but i just find it to be too cheesy and no fun. but when i play on superstar its just too easy to make shots.

# 19 Bornindamecca @ 03/23/15 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelers99_58_36


	"If both teams play solid defense, I can believe that a player might go 80% from the field from time to time, but it definitely shouldn't be the norm." WHAT!?!?! 80%!?!?! That is unheard of... that's insane... it's ludicrous. If you're telling me that from time to time a player might be able to hit 80% of their shots with their team throughout a full game then that's just ridiculous. If they think that from time to time teams hit 80% of their shots in a game then it's no wonder why shooting is joke in this game now, based on that logic. Also there is no way in hell that this is true: Wide open = 45% Fully Contested = 35% Heavily Contested = 10% Wide open = 60% Fully Contested = 20% Heavily Contested = 10%

Al Horford was 20/22 over the course of two games this year, and probably went on some decent stretches like that, largely on mid range jumpers. It's a shot that the Hawks create regularly for him, and he's great at it. While this doesn't happen over the course of a season, this does happen more consistently against opponents that play poor defense. Look at how good offensive teams and players play against the really bad defenses.

You see some silly numbers across the board.

When two humans play 2k, if they both aren't playing at least adequate defense, you'll SHOULD see some silly numbers, otherwise that means that 2k has artificial caps on the player having nothing to do with control. We don't want the game capped by a Random Number Generator, right?

So it's really on 2k to allow us to play good, consistent defense. That part is up for debate, but we can't just sit here and talk about numbers without talking about defense, ratings, fatigue and offensive player skill.

# 20 Bornindamecca @ 03/23/15 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelers99_58_36


	Oh. Well I guess I misinterpreted it as a whole team not a single player. A single player makes sense not a whole team though. But still I'm seeing guys going well over 50% online as a whole team and at the park, which was pretty much a joke already, throwing up fading, top key threes and absolutely nailing them.

My Park is athletic freaks with GOAT ratings in a full court 3 on 3 game. While it needs to be tweaked to be fun, it's unreasonable to compare it to a realistic game in any way. It is, by design, an arcade mode.

« Previous12 3 4 5 6 7 Next »

More Links