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Why Line Play Will Never Be Realistic in Football Games

With video game baseball season underway, it's the perfect time to make this analogy What realistic hitting would be to baseball games, realistic line play would be to football games -- unplayable for 95 percent of gamers.

To put things in perspective, a hitter at the MLB level has less than .25 seconds to judge a pitch's speed, location and decide whether or not to swing.

How Hard is it to Hit a Baseball?

Hitting major league pitching is so difficult, that succeeding 30 percent of the time is considered successful enough to earn a multi-million dollar contract.

NFL quarterbacks have more time to make decisions than MLB hitters, but with so much more data to take in, a NFL quarterback’s job is arguably the toughest in pro sports.

What Constitutes a "Realistic" Pass Rush?

The average NFL play lasts five seconds from snap to whistle.

A NFL quarterback is trained to get the ball out in less than three seconds -- 2.7 seconds, to be exact -- according to USA Today's study of the St. Louis Rams rookie quarterback, Sam Bradford.

Why three seconds? In a Sports Science test, Steelers outside linebacker LaMarr Woodley was able to break through two layers of pass protection in 2.6 seconds.

In another Sports Science video, Chargers defensive end Luis Castillo reached Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger in 1.3 seconds when coming unblocked off the edge -- just a few hundredths of a second before Roethlishberger could complete a five-step drop and get the ball out of his hand.


Are these just lab numbers unrelated to what happens on a real football field?

An analysis of Dwight Freeney's 25 sacks from 2009 and 2010 suggests that Sports Science's pass rush numbers are spot-on. According to ESPN Stats & Information, 2.5 seconds was the average time from snap to Freeney making contact with the quarterback.

Removing one sack from the sample pool that took 5.8 seconds (on this play, the QB rolled out to the sideline opposite Freeney), the time it took for each of Dwight Freeney's remaining sacks was an astonishing 2.1 seconds.

A "Realistic" Pass Rush Would Frustrate Most Gamers

Could gamers handle having only one to three seconds to make their reads and get the ball out before getting crushed by a realistic pass rush?

I believe 95 percent of gamers would be begging for a patch within a week of the game's release to fix the game's "broken" pass protection.

A similar reaction occurred with a recent football game -- a game that, before the pass protection was "fixed," had the most realistic line play of any football game to date: Natural Motion's Backbreaker.

When a bad offensive line goes against a good defensive line in Backbreaker, the results are ugly. A team can run the ball 30 times and end up with negative yardage at the end of the game. Quarterbacks can end up taking double-digit sacks.

In Backbreaker, a mismatch at the line of scrimmage plays out much like the 2008 Sugar Bowl in which Georgia demolished Hawaii's weak offensive line:


With only a four-man pass rush, Georgia's defense pressured Hawaii quarterback, Colt Brennan, into eight sacks, two fumbles and four interceptions.

NFL teams like the 2009 New York Giants, whose defensive line harassed Tom Brady en route to a Super Bowl XLII Giants victory, proved that a four-man pass rush can cause havoc even at the highest level of football.


Video Game Pass Rush Is Neutered To Satisfy Gaming Majority

Attempting to play as the video game equivalent of great 4-3 defenses like the Giants, Lions, Titans or Rams is an exercise in frustration.

Defensive ends do not get upfield, defensive tackles do not push the pocket back, and neither position seems to explode off the ball with the sub-five second 40-yard dash speed that today's NFL defensive linemen display.

In Madden and NCAA Football, defensive linemen get sucked into vacuum blocks, fail to use line moves properly, and don’t use the sprint button when pursuing the QB -- core issues that have gone unfixed in EA's football games for years. Even in All Pro Football 2K8, feared defensive linemen like Reggie White can be easily handled by a generic offensive line that is set to “pass block.”

Why are video game developers keeping the four-man pass rush from being the game-changing entity that it can be in real life?

To put it simply, because the people buying football video games are not NFL quarterbacks.


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Member Comments
# 41 Three Seed @ 03/31/11 07:16 PM
Should an official OS article really be basically stating that EA lies to us when they say they're attempting to make a game as realistic as possible?
 
# 42 jyoung @ 03/31/11 08:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blkrptnt819
The problem is that good user OL don't hold pressure from bad CPU DL and good user DL don't get pressure on bad CPU OL.
Definitely agree with this. I would add that human OL vs. human DL doesn't seem get much pressure, either.

Basically, the only time there's legitimate pressure in football games is when the CPU's on defense and you're on offense.
 
# 43 LionsFanNJ @ 03/31/11 08:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wEEman33
Definitely agree with this. I would add that human OL vs. human DL doesn't seem get much pressure, either.

Basically, the only time there's legitimate pressure in football games is when the CPU's on defense and you're on offense.
This, and its given me the impression that its used as a crutch to counteract human thought/reaction vs the cpu, and make the game "fun" through offensive play in h2h gameplay.

I'm sure I'm not alone when I say i'd like satisfying tough to score head 2 head games. Devs don't seem to think that's what people want

sent from parts unknown
 
# 44 TreFacTor @ 03/31/11 08:59 PM
Points I want to make

1-The pass rush in BackBreaker was defective because you could not make any adjustments for pass protection.

2-They fixed it by making the same adjustment that madden makes and thus making the same mistakes that madden makes. The players attributes no longer mattered at the line of scrimmage.

3-BackBreaker also had a more complex passing system, which required the player to make a read at the line to at least determine where they wanted to go, where the blitz was coming from, and where the hot is. These were all necessary .

4-BackbBreaker hasn't had 20 years to accomplish the most impressive display of physics in a football game and their customization alone trumps madden's first appearance on next gen consoles.

5-By committing the same sins as madden ("holding cages", controlled line interactions, increasing attributes on the fly etc )the devs of BackBreaker did their fan base s disservice. It's patronizing to think we cannot tell the difference.

6- The best overall televised experience and line interactions in a video football game came from 2K5 and can still be displayed in all it's glory in APF 2K8.

While nothing is perfect, it takes more than one outlet to bring the best in any area, smart business to eliminate the competition and buy a championship, but completely bones the consumer. Madden was at it's best when it had competition. I have no idea why that is.
 
# 45 AceOfSpades1898 @ 03/31/11 09:02 PM
There isnt a sport game on the market that has realistic gameplay. In football people the is the most important position, but in fact it is the offensive line. It would be next to impossible to replicate d-line and o-line interaction. game developers cannot factor in a players desire, how much time and effort put in the week before or how good of coaching he is getting. these elements all play a big part in how players play. we cant make the arguement about why some great players are not dominating as we think they should, because they cant predict the future. what i mean is that we knew Suh was a great player in college, but no one knew he was going to be as dominant as he was. he was dominating pro bowl players. would tom brady or peyton manning be as good without there stellar o-lines that they have. as great as players are we cant replicate how they should be playing on the field or court. Michael Jordan didnt make every shot he attempted....
 
# 46 MavsFansForLife41 @ 03/31/11 09:58 PM
Realistic line play was in NFL 2k5 and All-Pro Football 2k8. Did any of you play the games?
 
# 47 lilgame06 @ 03/31/11 09:59 PM
i also think that if the line play was adjusted, it has to lead to the WR/DB play being adjusted. If the 4-man pass rush is cranked up...while the o-line play is "fixed" (which i believe both should happen to make this more like sunday's), then this has to lead to a better interaction between WRs and their opposers.

I've had plenty of times where I've had tons of time in the pocket, yet Andre Johnson...arguably the best WR in the league...couldnt shake loose a scrub CB who has 97 speed and crappy man coverage capabilities. And i've had times where i have short slants or outs called to elite WRs to get the ball out quick...but that 90+ speed corner with low awareness and man coverage abilities is covering larry fitzgerald like he's making the pro bowl every year.

I think they are forced to give us more time in the pocket because they havent figured out the aspect of WR/DB play...(which of course can be a whole new argument in another thread). If the 4 man pass rush is to be cranked up, the only way to make it possible is for receivers to run their routes with more effectiveness...and for defensive backs to play those routes properly (meaning for them to not run the route before the receiver does...what are they, psychic?).
 
# 48 CzingerX @ 03/31/11 10:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dashdagreat
Its "realistic" in 2k8... im just saying...
In the 2K series I have to say it looked amazing and was very dynamic. Why nobody else can pull it off now I dont know.
 
# 49 videlsports @ 03/31/11 10:02 PM
Honestly, and objectivly I think all 3 games did well with lineman, 2k, Back breaker,and Madden. What happens is Lineman are more realisticly aware of the surroundings in 2k and Backbreaker. Madden Has tons of moments where the lineman where they sit around waiting for an animation to take place. We all have seen it, an o-lineman looks around for some one to block, and the d-line gets the pass rush or penetration for a loss of yards only to get sucked into an animation with a o-lineman. Gamers want both lines to be more reactive to the situation, than to stand around. I think this is a so-so writeup with some stats, But I think point gamers is making that the time in the pocket is good overall in video games, but we want real reactions to the situation on the field. If the o-line is dominating the d-line on a specific play, they should pancake their man and go to the next man nearest to the ball carrier. This says games are not able to pull of real line play but two games did it already. They are trying to lower our expectations so we can accept a lazy effort.
 
# 50 JDoze @ 03/31/11 10:13 PM
I see the point in this, but they don't have to make a realistic time. Just make the interactions realistic. Make the elite DTs get push up the middle and the DEs get upfield. If the pocket is formed correctly, I don't think the time would be that big of a deal.
 
# 51 videlsports @ 03/31/11 10:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by poopoop
This article is misleading.

I don't believe the reason line play isn't realistic is because it'd make the game too difficult. I believe the reason is that EA is just unable to replicate line play in their games. Has to do with the fact that things like physics, momentum, height and weight not working correctly.

Honestly if we had a completely 100% true to life game it'd be incredibly difficult. For example think about playcalling. No one on these forums is going to outscheme/outcoach Bill Belichick so the Patriots would be near impossible to beat. That's not the reason the CPU's playcalling logic makes no sense. EA isn't saying to themselves, "Hey we don't wanna make the game too difficult so let's make the CPU call a HB draw on 4th and 11!"

At least I hope not...

EA def has motivation to make to make the game accessible to as many people as possible, but I don't think that should be used as a blanket excuse for their inability to program realistic gameplay.


Exactly Sir I agree.. this is just trying to give excuses
 
# 52 jyoung @ 03/31/11 10:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilgame06
I've had plenty of times where I've had tons of time in the pocket, yet Andre Johnson...arguably the best WR in the league...couldnt shake loose a scrub CB who has 97 speed and crappy man coverage capabilities. And i've had times where i have short slants or outs called to elite WRs to get the ball out quick...but that 90+ speed corner with low awareness and man coverage abilities is covering larry fitzgerald like he's making the pro bowl every year.
This is one of the reasons I stopped playing Madden this year.

A team in my online franchise division drafted a 97 speed CB with 25 awareness and 45 man coverage rating.

Then he put the 45 man coverage CB on my 95 overall WR Calvin Johnson, and Megatron couldn't break loose from the scrub CB all game.
 
# 53 MegaBearsFan @ 03/31/11 10:46 PM
Backbreaker's blocking was not realistic pre-patch. Yeah, the 2 seconds or less that QBs had to throw the ball was realistic, but that was where it stopped. Offensive linemen in Backbreaker simply weren't smart enough to handle the rush. They missed simple reads and made stupid mistakes that no professional player should make. Offensive linemen just didn't make any effort to engage their defenders. Every single one of them just seemed to step in front of the defender and then get spun around or pushed on his butt. Defensive line moves always worked, even against the best offensive linemen. There was no pushing. No jostling. No contest. It was like flipping a coin and instantly knowing which player was going to win.

These problems were compounded by other issues. The camera and controls were certainly an issue. The passing motion that the player had to perform on the joystick took just long enough that even if you reacted in time, the delay between performing the move on the joystick and it actually happening in-game was enough to result in a wobbly-duck interception. Complicating the problems even more were the fact that receiver route-running was fundamentally broken. Receivers did not finish their routes. QBs couldn't lead properly. If you were doing a quick slant, and you threw the ball a split second before the receiver cut (like you're supposed to), then the receiver just runs a streak and the QB throws over his head!

the best counter against an aggressive defense is a quick timing and route-based passing attack. But Backbreaker didn't allow the player to run such an offense because the receiver logic to perform such tasks was completely absent!

The running game would have worked better pre-patch if not for the fact that running backs just crumpled to the ground the moment he gets touched - even if he bumped into his own blocker. If that one thing had been addressed prior to the game's release, the running game would have been much more playable even pre-patch, despite the "realistic" line play. But other problems still existed in the running game. Running backs often got stuck running horizontally instead of vertically, and once that happened, you couldn't see upfield. The camera movements for looking upfield or behind you were jarring and uncomfortable, and when you used them, your player would often change directions because the controls seemed to be based on the camera direction rather than the direction your player was running, so you'd be running off tackle to the right, rotate the camera 90 degrees to the left while still holding the stick to the right, and then your player would turn around and run into the backfield.

overly realistic blocking wasn't the problem with Backbreaker. It was a combination of a lot of things.
 
# 54 PGaither84 @ 03/31/11 10:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dashdagreat
Its "realistic" in 2k8... im just saying...
Agreed. It isn't perfect in 2k8, but it is FAR better than it is in Madden.

Not only are the animations nice, but if you load up the D-Line with 2 or 3 star linemen [like the 09 Vikings, 07 Giants, 05 or 06 Colts, etc] you will see similar success those real life teams had.

As a result I totally disagree with the title of this thread. besides, that is also why there are difficulty levels. Football games should come out of the box set to Pro by default for all the casual gamers. If that is too much for them, they can drop to rookie. If you are not a casual, unlike the average Madden player, then you can take a few seconds to change the settings, like we already do.
 
# 55 michapop9 @ 03/31/11 11:11 PM
Madden 11 actually did a good job mimicing the time you had to get rid of the ball if you had passblk at 0 and comp pass rush at 100, it was realistic, the problem was the it was either win or lose as in either my guy gets knocked down and loses or basically knocks the other guy down and wins, if anchoring was involved like adembrowski mentioned, the line play would be excellent, but madden 11 had accurate "nfl pocket time" and u dont need to be an nfl quarterback because you play from the "god" cam.
 
# 56 da ThRONe @ 04/01/11 12:11 AM
Clearly I'm in the 5% that would love a realistic pass rush. Some of the numbers thrown out are from the best pass rusher in the game. You should feel pressured by the best press rushers. Playing videogame QB much like real QBing you should have a strong idea where you want to go with the ball before the ball is snapped. Now playing as the QB not only can you see the whole field, also you have all day in the pocket.

IMO video games are way too easy, it's suppose to simulate the sport. Ofcourse until we have VR games it will never be that close, but games like ****** and NCAA should be a lot closer this many iterations in.

I think the reason why it would be fustrating is because it's been done wrong for so long having it done right will feel foreign to most.
 
# 57 poopoop @ 04/01/11 01:12 AM
It's also pretty easy to see where this theory fails by looking at other aspects of the game.

Line play is just interaction between olineman and the dline / blitzers.
Compare it to tackling which is the interaction between ball carrier and defender(s).

Both are unrealistic and flawed.

So if line play won't ever be realistic because it'd make the game too difficult, what is the excuse for not having a realistic tackling engine? Making the tackling engine more realistic would have very little impact on how difficult the game would be in either direction.

I guess we could make excuses and say the devs don't implement realistic tackling because it'd frustrate too many people.
 
# 58 oneamongthefence @ 04/01/11 01:24 AM
Here's to eventually getting **** line play in ******. Just wanted to use **** and ****** in the same sentence. Just add more outcomes and remake their win loss formulas seems like the easiest ***.
 
# 59 nighttrain32 @ 04/01/11 01:45 AM
It may never be "realistic" but EA could at least try to make the line play better. If ends rushed the edge more and d tackles collapsed the middle, we would all care less about how much time it takes to release the ball. APF 2k8 does it better than ****** and NCAA because of the rarity of suction blocking. ****** and NCAA give the illusion of a speed rush by making linemen not attempt to reach or anything and just let the defender run by.

Good article by the way.
 
# 60 PSRusse83 @ 04/01/11 01:59 AM
******? The only problem i see with the Line play is User Defensive vs Computer O Line.
 


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