Madden NFL 17 News Post

Do You Care About Dangerous Hits in Madden?

01:36 PM - April 25, 2016 by Steve_OS

The question of realism in sports games is always a tricky thing to discuss. Most of us want our sports games to be “realistic” depictions of what we watch on TV or experience in our day-to-day lives.

What that usually means is hoping Madden makes the passing game more diversified, or hoping you can botch your cap situation like a true Jerry Jones disciple. In many respects, what people are talking about wanting here at Operation Sports are “simulation” aspects that help keep a game dynamic and interesting. Repetition is the enemy.

But there’s another layer of “realism” in sports games, as well as another set of creative liberties that go along with it. I would classify this element of realism as visual realism. It’s one part graphics, but it’s also just one part physicality. Hockey games, football games, basketball games, even baseball games all have to deal with collisions and physics. What do these interactions look like? How do they make you feel? (Boxing games and MMA games are built around visual physicality, so I’m ignoring them here because combat sports are a whole other disucssion.)

Read More - Do You Care About Dangerous Hits in Madden? (Written By: Chase Becotte)

Game: Madden NFL 17Reader Score: 8/10 - Vote Now
Platform: PS3 / PS4 / Xbox 360 / Xbox OneVotes for game: 17 - View All

Member Comments

# 21 roadman @ 04/25/16 04:57 PM

Eh, I can take it or leave it.

It's been mostly leave it when more than a few years ago the NFL looks over some or all of the tackling.(Chase might be able to confirm or deny that) I think that is why we don't see helmet popping hits anymore.

Plus, the league has come down on the concussion protocol and changed some of the rules.

# 22 4thQtrStre5S @ 04/25/16 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SageInfinite


	By overdone I meant they were late and illegal at times. They added them for the sake of having them, but they weren't implemented realistically in alot of circumstances that I've noticed while playing. The stuff where the players were still up and trying to get free, I agree, looked pretty good.

Now that you have cleared up what was meant by "toning" down the clean up hits, I can agree we could do without the late hits, just as long as it doesn't effect the low hits and gang tackles prior to a play being whistled dead.

I would like tackles to be determined more by player size - thus a 5'11" CB weighing about 185, isn't going to go high on a receiver who may be 6'5" and 245lbs, for example; but I do believe it may get a little too in depth to create such an exact tackle system because there are players, who, while even being smaller than their opponent, still can deliver big hits...Angles/positioning means a lot on how a player attempts to take down an opponent.

# 23 SageInfinite @ 04/25/16 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4thQtrStre5S


	Now that you have cleared up what was meant by "toning" down the clean up hits, I can agree we could do without the late hits, just as long as it doesn't effect the low hits and gang tackles prior to a play being whistled dead. I would like tackles to be determined more by player size - thus a 5'11" CB weighing about 185, isn't going to go high on a receiver who may be 6'5" and 245lbs, for example; but I do believe it may get a little too in depth to create such an exact tackle system because there are players, who, while even being smaller than their opponent, still can deliver big hits...Angles/positioning means a lot on how a player attempts to take down an opponent.

Totally agree. There needs to be a marriage between the ratings and the physics. There should be some wiggle room for anomalies every now again. Crazy stuff we don't expect does happen, but I think most of the time we should get the realistic outcomes that we expect.

I'd like to see the hitstick go high, or low make a comeback. Actually you know what, I think the hitstick should go. I feel we should be beyond that. I think we should be able to select what type of tackle we're going for(high/low/wrap-up(safer)/aggressive(flying tackle and such), then have the angle and speed depict what type of hit it is.

# 24 Ampking101 @ 04/25/16 06:00 PM

If the tackling engine was tied to injuries I might care but it seems very much now that injuries rely on a dice roll and the injury gets randomized. The fact that I can see the slightest wrap up tackle cause a Ruptured Disk but I can see a huge (and sometimes questionable) hit and the player just jumps right up after like nothing happened when one of the players would at best have a take a couple plays off after something like that, not to mention that where they get hit doesn't seem to matter where injuries are concerned either, I've seen incidental "helmet to helmet" hits in the game (which was mostly due to a diving player hitting a player being tackled) amount to a bruised sternum when it clearly would have been a concussion or neck injury. It is utterly unrealistic and completely pulls me out of the game when I see an occurrence like that.

I know the NFL wants to tone down big hits and wants to separate things like concussions and injuries being tied to those big hits (and I would venture that if they could have their way completely that injuries would be completely removed from madden).

So when I see a hit like the one in the article, I don't even think twice about it. There are no consequences on either side (you know it won't increase the likelyhood of an injury to the ball carrier or the defender) and there certainly is no benefit to having it in the game except for it being something you would see a dirty player do in the NFL. At this point I would rather just cut out big or questionable hits altogether and make every tackle a wrap up tackle because at this point seeing a player either get or deliver a leveling hit and then brush it off like any other wrap up tackle just screams "video game" and pulls me out of the game.

There is a reason the Antonio Brown and Vontaze Burfict hit was so controversial and widely discussed, that is something that could never happen in Madden (even though you can see players connect in a similar manner) but it does happen in the NFL more often than we like to admit. I also understand why the NFL would want to pull away from that image (especially with all the recent early retirements and the result of the CTE discussions) and I am glad that NFL Blitz style hits are gone, it still doesn't change the fact that there is no weight to hits like in the article.

If you are going to program the game to allow hits like this and you are going to talk about adding penalties for it to make it realistic then you NEED to make it realistic with injuries and the consequences tied to those kinds of hits. You can't pick and choose what is realistic and what isn't and thus is also the perfect time to discuss adding a system for player suspensions in the game (which has happened a lot as of late and a lot of Franchise commissioners would like a feature like this for players who break rules) which I know will never see its way into the game even though it is realistic. I'm really all for making the game more true to life, however if you are going to do so, you need to do it completely and not in half measures.

# 25 Junior Moe @ 04/25/16 06:07 PM

I hate to say it but I really don't. I don't want NFL Blitz or anything, but some big, occasionally crushing, hits are good to me. I mean, it's football. I get the player safety aspect but it's also a game. I watch footage from the old NFL days on NFL network and i cant lie, sometimes i wanna crank Madden and bust some heads after watching those old Steeler and Raider defenses. Maybe give us a slider so that we may tweak it to our liking.

# 26 half-fast @ 04/25/16 07:52 PM

I can agree with most of the post, but it's almost as if you're saying that physics-based is not the way to go because it looks bad, as if they've "completed" improving it. It will get better every year. EA FIFA(soccer wasnt mentioned, erroneously) went through an odd year or two when they were developing their new contact engine. I mean, its far from perfect still, ridiculous animations happen, but it looks pretty good in the overall, so much so that I, a regular soccer fan can enjoy the tackles.

Ive been wanting companies to get rid of animations for years. Theyre holding graphical fidelity up, but hold down the realism of the game. Eventually, everything all contact in any sports game needs to be fully dynamic and physics based - its the only way of the future. Id be willing to keep graphics the way they are now, and have EA, 2K, SCEA and the like only work on physics and AI. I'm so done with canned animations and limited outcomes.

As for leaving out the dangerous plays? I think if it's in the game, we should see it in the simulation representation. There's only a matter of time before games get so good, that youll be playing a "safe" version of your game, that has all kinds of dynamic, realistic, surprising and regular outcomes that you could ask for, but you'll be watching hockey one day and think, "Why wasnt that high-stick and injury I saw in the the real game in the video game?". Sadly, fewer injuries and dangerous plays = few outcomes, and is not realistic.

# 27 mrprice33 @ 04/25/16 07:54 PM

Not to speak for the author, but I think the issue highlighted via the embedded video is the late cleanup hits that come well after the whistle.

# 28 roadman @ 04/25/16 09:16 PM

My comment was directed at people wanting more big hits.

EA needs to clean up the physics system.

# 29 mrprice33 @ 04/25/16 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by half-fast


	I can agree with most of the post, but it's almost as if you're saying that physics-based is not the way to go because it looks bad, as if they've "completed" improving it. It will get better every year. EA FIFA(soccer wasnt mentioned, erroneously) went through an odd year or two when they were developing their new contact engine. I mean, its far from perfect still, ridiculous animations happen, but it looks pretty good in the overall, so much so that I, a regular soccer fan can enjoy the tackles. Ive been wanting companies to get rid of animations for years. Theyre holding graphical fidelity up, but hold down the realism of the game. Eventually, everything all contact in any sports game needs to be fully dynamic and physics based - its the only way of the future. Id be willing to keep graphics the way they are now, and have EA, 2K, SCEA and the like only work on physics and AI. I'm so done with canned animations and limited outcomes. As for leaving out the dangerous plays? I think if it's in the game, we should see it in the simulation representation. There's only a matter of time before games get so good, that youll be playing a "safe" version of your game, that has all kinds of dynamic, realistic, surprising and regular outcomes that you could ask for, but you'll be watching hockey one day and think, "Why wasnt that high-stick and injury I saw in the the real game in the video game?". Sadly, fewer injuries and dangerous plays = few outcomes, and is not realistic.

I don't see how you can get rid of animations completely in any game. Even Backbreaker limited its physics implementation to collisions. Players still have to run, throw, attempt to catch, swat, etc. You need animations for all that stuff.

# 30 jfsolo @ 04/25/16 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CM Hooe


	I think what could help this is if there were a greater sense of self-preservation for individual players embedded in the physics, they should try to shield themselves better when they get into big pileups and in 100% certain "I am getting tackled" situations. If the players were more actively defending themselves we might see fewer unrealistically violent situations (relative to the real-life NFL, at least).

This would add so much to the game IMO. The fear of getting injured is a very big part of sports. So many plays are not made because of the very normal desire to avoid getting hurt badly. It needs to play a bigger role in all sports games. And if users don't exercise reasonable caution with players that they are controlling, then those players should be getting injured a lot more and with more severe injuries too.

# 31 jpdavis82 @ 04/25/16 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by l8knight1


	Bring back the big hits and realism. Something was removed in 16 that totally nerfs my pleasure of making a receiver across the middle pay for his actions. Bring back the helmets being nocked off. They come off in real life for Pete's sake.

Does anyone even remember the last Madden where helmets popped off? I would say maybe 05 or 06, hasn't been in the game for years.

# 32 bigd51 @ 04/25/16 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrprice33


	I don't see how you can get rid of animations completely in any game. Even Backbreaker limited its physics implementation to collisions. Players still have to run, throw, attempt to catch, swat, etc. You need animations for all that stuff.

In his defense, he did specify all contact:

Quote:

Originally Posted by half-fast


	Ive been wanting companies to get rid of animations for years. Theyre holding graphical fidelity up, but hold down the realism of the game. Eventually, everything all contact* in any sports game needs to be fully dynamic and physics based* - its the only way of the future. Id be willing to keep graphics the way they are now, and have EA, 2K, SCEA and the like only work on physics and AI. I'm so done with canned animations and limited outcomes.

# 33 half-fast @ 04/26/16 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrprice33


	I don't see how you can get rid of animations completely in any game. Even Backbreaker limited its physics implementation to collisions. Players still have to run, throw, attempt to catch, swat, etc. You need animations for all that stuff.

You actually can get rid of all animations, 100%, but it takes far too much processing power to do it in any kind of meaningful way at the moment, in my opinion.

You can literally create a wireframe person that you can train to learn how to walk, jump, turn, whatever, and the ai has to do the math to make the limbs do exactly that. Add in some of the player stats and some slight random variation and you can literally get a muscle pull that is legit, basically just by turning awkwardly, not a random muscle pull dice roll.

# 34 mestevo @ 04/26/16 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by half-fast


	You actually can get rid of all animations, 100%, but it takes far too much processing power to do it in any kind of meaningful way at the moment, in my opinion. You can literally create a wireframe person that you can train to learn how to walk, jump, turn, whatever, and the ai has to do the math to make the limbs do exactly that. Add in some of the player stats and some slight random variation and you can literally get a muscle pull that is legit, basically just by turning awkwardly, not a random muscle pull dice roll.

Except you can pull a muscle without anything awkward. Your season can end on a cut that you do/practice several dozen times over the course of a week.

Don't see why a dice roll triggers some of you, it will never go away, just ideally be influenced by ability/stats.

# 35 half-fast @ 04/26/16 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mestevo


	Except you can pull a muscle without anything awkward. Your season can end on a cut that you do/practice several dozen times over the course of a week. Don't see why a dice roll triggers some of you, it will never go away, just ideally be influenced by ability/stats.

I dont believe I said it bothered me, just that physics based is better, and it is. In college I had a project where I had to create a wire-frame, self-calculating stick man. It's creepy at how lifelike the movements are, even though its just a stickman. Eventually, sports game will lose animations, the tech is there,and has been for a while, its just not quite practical yet, and games dont have enough competition to make it happen at the moment.

# 36 Bigolenutz @ 04/26/16 02:22 AM

As a Offline CFM only mode player the addition of penalties for late/illegal hits could add some realism to the game, but I don't see it flying with the NFL to get it in the game. Also this would open a can of worms of having ratings for sportsmanship/character which the NFLPA would have none of.

Personally EA have a ton of other more important issues to resolve before tackling this, like the getting the clock to stop when I run out of bounds, OC & DC's, (insert features that have been taken out of previous games)

# 37 roadman @ 04/26/16 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigolenutz


	Personally EA have a ton of other more important issues to resolve before tackling this, like the getting the clock to stop when I run out of bounds, OC & DC's, (insert features that have been taken out of previous games)

The clock stopping when running out of bounds? I'm pretty sure EA is getting the ruling right if this is what you are referring to.

The official ruling that the play clock shouldn't resume until the ball is hiked is only when there is less than 2 minutes left in the first half and under 5 minutes in the second half.

Scrimmage Down
Article 2Following any timeout (3-36), the game clock shall be started on a scrimmage down when the ball is
next snapped, except in the following situations:
(a) Whenever a runner goes out of bounds on a play from scrimmage, the game clock is started when
an official spots the ball at the inbounds spot, and the Referee gives the signal to start the game
clock, except that the clock will start on the snap:
(1) after a change of possession;
(2) after the two-minute warning of the first half; or
(3) inside the last five minutes of the second half.

http://static.nfl.com/static/content...ame_Timing.pdf

# 38 SolidSquid @ 04/26/16 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrprice33


	Not to speak for the author, but I think the issue highlighted via the embedded video is the late cleanup hits that come well after the whistle.

The thing is the hit technically wasn't late bc the ball carrier was "resting" on a tacklers legs so to the game the ball carrier is not down and the whistle hasn't blown which is why the second defender flies in like that. It's important to remember the reason they added his "clean up" hits is bc we were all tired of seeing 10 defenders just standing around while a tackle animation played out.

# 39 mrprice33 @ 04/26/16 11:57 AM

You can clearly hear the whistle a full second before the defender launches himself into the receiver.

# 40 DaveDQ @ 04/26/16 01:46 PM

I feel like Madden 16 is the best Madden yet (in terms of physics). It has been a long time coming too. And, I am concerned that they can't handle it. I don't mean to be disrespectful towards developers etc.. I just don't trust that EA Sports can handle incorporating illegal hits and then having the refs throwing a flag for such things. So, I'd rather see them continue to polish physics and continue to build on what they have right now, then to veer off an include an illegal hit system. And I certainly don't want to see the game go back to defenders rolling off of players instead of tackling.

I also feel like the article leans towards making a big deal out of nothing. How many of us play this game and seriously think this is a major issue? "The days of" rant is a bit much for me. Is this something to be that passionate about?

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