Madden NFL 13 News Post

EA Sports Sim Community Demand Quick Fix - Madden NFL 13 DE Pass Rush

10:48 PM - June 13, 2012 by LBzrule

We have talked about this already but I want to look at this not from the perspective of All Pro Football or any of the 2k games. I want to look at this within the framework of Madden/NCAA and I have already forwarded this and hope there is something that can be done. They can actually make the DE's rush better in Madden 13 by paying attention to the scripts and animations in their own animation engine. I saw this in the NCAA 13 demo (thus I know they have access to the animation script) but did not see it in any of the Madden videos from E3. It did not happen too much in the NCAA 13 video. When I saw it the lights came on. It's not the solution, but it is perhaps the best realistic quick fix they can make for Madden 13 to get the DE's to rush the passer more adequately.

It's not the end all be all but I think we need this script as a quick fix.

While it can look better, we gotta work with what EA is giving us. This script is in the game and looks decent so why not replicate it and have guys do it more instead of the bounce and keep bouncing animation. At least with this one there is an engagement and the DE actually dips his shoulder and there actually looks to be a struggle between the tackle and the DE. I think blitzing 3-4 OLB's deserve the same rush script.

Let me be clear on what I'm advocating. I think this script needs to play out more consistently through passing downs if you set your defense up to rush this way. Second, the guys coming off the edge need to get there a little faster than the LSU DE's in the video.

Separating players based on ratings would be the tricky part. I think this could help with making the elite pass rushers actually seem like they are on the field.
Another thing to think about since EA's system is based on wins and losses is what would a win for an offensive tackle look like in this scenario?

What do you guys think?

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Member Comments

# 61 ch46647 @ 06/18/12 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	Ohhh indeed. Make no mistake about it they have a great deal of work to do to address OL vs DL. But like we have discussed, I'm just trying to come up with something with the front four rush this year to make the game "worth it"; to get people to play defense differently and not always have to rely on blitzing, tricking the OL, or always getting a free runner because the tackles decide to block the second level player. I like their modification to slide protection. They can add options to that later, but at least they did something with it. That right there is going to help my offense alot. One of the first things I do every football game I get is start with the basics. I go through to see what I'm going to need to do. When I get the game this year, the first thing I'm going to look at is the basic pass rush and how the DE's rush the passer. If I have to hot blitz them ect., Then the first thing I would like to do on offense is work on protection. The last upmteen Madden's I have not worked on protection because I did not like the logic of slide protection. With the way it is now, I will work on that. I always start up front and if the game just gives me a little bit I can take it from there until they give me a lot. But if they don't give me a little bit, I'm not going to feel like playing, which is why I ditched Madden 12 back in February, but was already fed up with the game in Nov/December. We'll see. I wonder when they will release some new videos.

What was the modification to slide protection? What are the benefits?

Thanks!

# 62 LBzrule @ 06/18/12 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big FN Deal


	Let me ask you this LBz since you have been directly involved with Madden devs. Considering you believe and I agree, that most of the pieces needed to make pass rush more realistic in Madden, ie better, are already available, is there some EA/Tiburon "fun" standard, as I call it, likely preventing a change like this? Big let me clarify. I do not believe the pieces to make it more realistic are in the game. What I do believe is they have animation scripts that look pretty good and make the pass rush from the DE's look good if they speed up the animations. The foundation for solid OL vs DL is not under the hood. I need to clarify that because another poster seemed to think that's what I was getting at and I was not. All I'm getting at is since they have a pretty good looking animation script that gets the DE's to push and drive their legs, why not have that happen a lot more. It will make Madden 13's front four pass rush better and people can rely on the talent they have up front and not blitz all the time to get pressure. If realism is still beholden to "fun", ie intentionally limiting the realistic challenge or risk/reward when deemed necessary, in Madden, that is essentially a cap on how much "football" improvement that should be expected.

To me the fact that the animation script even exists is an indication that they want the game to have that type of realistic push by the DE's against the OT's. What I'm not sure of is how much they want it to happen. Given your DE's are not going to perform any moves, I think it is a good compromise for it to happen on five step, seven step, PA plays. On three step drops, the pass should be out quick so I'm not sure it should happen there. Now that WR icons must show up before making a pass I think they have a foundation in place to where this should be occurring.

Going back through some videos now I do see it at times. It occurred at 1:20 in the following video, only thing I don't like is they bounce first. Why not just engage dip shoulder and drive feet? Why do we need the bounce all the time?

It also happens in this next one at 6:40

They just bounce first which slows things down. If they could eliminate the bounce that would help.

# 63 ch46647 @ 06/18/12 03:39 PM

If we could manually make this trigger every time we select the "pass" pre-play option I would be a happy camper.

# 64 LBzrule @ 06/18/12 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ch46647


	What was the modification to slide protection? What are the benefits? Thanks!

It is more of a man zone style adjustment you can call now. The back side Tackle will block man to man. This way nobody can slip into the back side untouched. This makes it easy to shore up that B gap with the HB stepping up to block. Also if you come out in a formation with a TE on the line and you slide away from the TE but keep the TE in to block you have two back side players in Man blocking with the rest of the line sliding the other way. I'm going to do some strategy videos on it down the line.

# 65 JerzeyReign @ 06/18/12 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	It is more of a man zone style adjustment you can call now. The back side Tackle will block man to man. This way nobody can slip into the back side untouched. This makes it easy to shore up that B gap with the HB stepping up to block. Also if you come out in a formation with a TE on the line and you slide away from the TE but keep the TE in to block you have two back side players in Man blocking with the rest of the line sliding the other way. I'm going to do some strategy videos on it down the line.

The coach in me wants to tell you whats wrong with that blocking scheme but I'll wait for the videos. I have to see it to understand it at this point.

# 66 LBzrule @ 06/18/12 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerzeyReign


	The coach in me wants to tell you whats wrong with that blocking scheme but I'll wait for the videos. I have to see it to understand it at this point.

Ohhh I know there are some things wrong with it but I think it is a better option than what we had previously. Are you familiar with Charlie Stubb's Developing an Explosive Offense? It somewhat mimics one aspect of protection broken down there. I'll take that over what we had previously.

# 67 RandyBass @ 06/18/12 06:38 PM

For what it's worth, here are the NFL sack leaders from last year:

2011 NFL Sack Leaders

Notice the highest total for a DT is 7.5, done by both Gino Atkins of the Bengals and Tommy Kelly of Oakland. That tied them for 33rd in the league in that category.

Let me say that again, that tied them for 33rd in the league.

In fact go back over the last five years and there's only been a handful of DTs who totaled more than that: Tommie Harris and Darnell Dockett in 2007, Albert Haynesworth and Kevin Williams in 2008, and Ndamukong Suh in 2010, with Suh being the only guy with 10 or more (he had 10).

I bring this up because it's not just the presence of an outside rush that needs some consideration, but also the results on the stat sheet. Hopefully any tweaks they make will create a better balance in terms of numbers too.

# 68 Senator Palmer @ 06/18/12 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	Part of me wonders though is this a specific type of pass rusher that is causing this animation script with the offensive tackles. Kruger and Upshaw have pretty high power move ratings. Suggs does too, although he's not in these videos. I wonder if those LSU DE's are more power move guys? I'm not sure though because I get it with the USC DE's on occasion along with the Oregon guys as well. I need to play as KState and see. What I can say is the OLB's just based on playing with Bama, their rush angles out of 3-4 Odd result in a lot of bouncing with the offensive tackle. I

I ran with Alabama the other day just to get a look at the edge rush of the backers in passing situations. Every passing down I got into a Nickel 2-4-5, pass commit, base rush. The pressure was virtually non-existent. I can remember one play where I saw the OLB engage and work up field. Now I don't know if that's due to there being no Courtney Upshaw on the field or if there is something going on with the 3-4, because as I've always noticed, the pass commit, which relies on jumping the snap, only seems to function with down linemen and not backers. I'm going to try again later and put the backers on the line in the Dime and see if I get anything different.

Conversely, I've been killing it with LSU and USC -- LSU especially. I generate 4-5 sacks a game.

And this whole thread had me thinking back to this one started by Ian three years ago where he was working on tweaking the pass rush before Madden 10 dropped:http://www.operationsports.com/forum...pass-rush.html

Has anyone from EA even acknowledged this as an issue since then?

As you can see in the vid, it's still wins and losses and "effectiveness" seems to be defined not by pressure per se, but by how fast the defensive linemen got free. Interesting thing I saw was how the edge rushers were more apt to look for an inside move, however. At the 30 sec mark, it looks like Suggs goes for a pretty nice swim move. I'm wondering what factor playart played in that. I do remember that Madden 10 and 11 had more defensive plays where the edge rushers had inside tracks like the old Buzz Duo play.

# 69 LBzrule @ 06/18/12 08:24 PM

Senator. I'm glad you referenced that thread. That thread is the reason why I started this one. Unless there is a big community response it will go untouched and on the shelf.

# 70 SteelerSpartan @ 06/18/12 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tazdevil20


	Can't like this post enough. The one thing we could not fix in our league was the effectiveness of defensive tackles. That silly shrug off animation that DTs do to guards and centers was infuriating. We had Kevin Williams, Brandon Mebane, Casey Hampton and others getting 24 sacks a season. IT was awful. Meanwhile, DEs would get maybe 8-10. It's not just sacks, but it's how they get them. There is no battle at the line and there is simply a quick win/loss. It looks extremely dated and has clearly not been addressed properly over the last decade. If Madden could surpass the realism that APF has instilled in its lineplay and they really spent the time in getting the assignments right with realism in mind, this would go a long way in winning back my faith in this series. Realism in the trenches combined with enhancement to the physics would do SO much for this game, it's not even funny.

What Pisses me off the most about the Super Human DT play is that you can't even get around them with sliders.....You can't make the DEs/OLBs more potent without making the DTs Godly

# 71 briz1744 @ 06/19/12 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyBass


	For what it's worth, here are the NFL sack leaders from last year: 2011 NFL Sack Leaders Notice the highest total for a DT is 7.5, done by both Gino Atkins of the Bengals and Tommy Kelly of Oakland. That tied them for 33rd in the league in that category. Let me say that again, that tied them for 33rd in the league. In fact go back over the last five years and there's only been a handful of DTs who totaled more than that: Tommie Harris and Darnell Dockett in 2007, Albert Haynesworth and Kevin Williams in 2008, and Ndamukong Suh in 2010, with Suh being the only guy with 10 or more (he had 10). I bring this up because it's not just the presence of an outside rush that needs some consideration, but also the results on the stat sheet. Hopefully any tweaks they make will create a better balance in terms of numbers too.

IMO this is caused more by the flawed rating system than issues with animations, the the OVR is calculated varies by position and generally values seed over strength etc making it harder for DTs to achieve high OVR
Thus Donny Moore artificially increases individual attribute ratings on DTs like BSH and PMV to bring the OVRs at this position in line with other positions
Combine this with underrating most OCs in many strength catergories and the onterior rush overpowers the OLs far too easily once the game is tuned to give any outside rush at all and unbalances the lineplay

# 72 LBzrule @ 06/19/12 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by briz1744


	IMO this is caused more by the flawed rating system than issues with animations, the the OVR is calculated varies by position and generally values seed over strength etc making it harder for DTs to achieve high OVR Thus Donny Moore artificially increases individual attribute ratings on DTs like BSH and PMV to bring the OVRs at this position in line with other positions Combine this with underrating most OCs in many strength catergories and the onterior rush overpowers the OLs far too easily once the game is tuned to give any outside rush at all and unbalances the lineplay

The only problem is if Donny does not increase BSH and PMV for DT's then they are pretty garbage against the run. So they need to figure out some ratings issues.

# 73 briz1744 @ 06/19/12 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	The only problem is if Donny does not increase BSH and PMV for DT's then they are pretty garbage against the run. So they need to figure out some ratings issues.

Agreed its the OL/DT/DE balance that needs work as a whole but most DTs aren't making tons of tackles more occupying blockers to free up LBs

# 74 LBzrule @ 06/19/12 12:09 PM

Recorded some more footage from NCAA.

That fighting towards the QB animation happens a bit more than I thought. Still not enough for my taste. There is still just something wrong though. I've talked about getting defenders out of their stances faster and speeding up the animation.
When the animation occurs, notice I'm just standing in the pocket with no urgency to get rid of the football. I have plenty of time. With the QB I don't feel the pass rush closing in or bearing down on me. I chill most of the time. I don't think they need to always disengage, I think there needs to be more push/fight animations.

At 3:57 it looks really good on the right side of the screen Baylor OLB vs K State RT. That bounce slows it down and the animation in general is kinda slow. Happens again on the right side at 4:22 and 4:47. Again, I'm just chilling in the pocket. On that last one I step up because I'm looking for the post for the TD. I wonder how this will play out on higher levels? Is the animation faster? Will I be forced to step up?

# 75 hay99077 @ 06/19/12 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	Recorded some more footage from NCAA. That fighting towards the QB animation happens a bit more than I thought. Still not enough for my taste. There is still just something wrong though. I've talked about getting defenders out of their stances faster and speeding up the animation. When the animation occurs, notice I'm just standing in the pocket with no urgency to get rid of the football. I have plenty of time. With the QB I don't feel the pass rush closing in or bearing down on me. I chill most of the time. I don't think they need to always disengage, I think there needs to be more push/fight animations. At 3:57 it looks really good on the right side of the screen Baylor OLB vs K State RT. That bounce slows it down and the animation in general is kinda slow. Happens again on the right side at 4:22 and 4:47. Again, I'm just chilling in the pocket. On that last one I step up because I'm looking for the post for the TD. I wonder how this will play out on higher levels? Is the animation faster? Will I be forced to step up?

In the play at the 4:22 mark, it looks like the linebacker blitzes and is able to get into the animation as well. This would be a huge issue for 3-4 users as someone previously mentioned the issue of linebacker pass rush angles differing from those of 4-3 DE's.

# 76 LBzrule @ 06/19/12 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hay99077


	In the play at the 4:22 mark, it looks like the linebacker blitzes and is able to get into the animation as well. This would be a huge issue for 3-4 users as someone previously mentioned the issue of linebacker pass rush angles differing from those of 4-3 DE's.

Yeah, it is the OLB in Nickel 33. So I'm going to take it that it can happen in most defenses. Going to look at Bama vs LSU here in a sec and look at it out of every 3-4 front.

# 77 btemp @ 06/19/12 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reginald_rush


	I have been saying this for years. EA is working on the WR/CB one on one match up, and that's cool, but the real match up that needs attention is the DE/OT one on one battle. That, in my opinion will make the game more realistic. Not only will it help in passing plays, but it will open up draw plays and bootleg plays. What is the point of having a good pass rusher if they are not affective in the game at all. Also, if you have a one dimensional pass rusher, you should be able to take advantage of him by running at him. I'm sure that EA has heard this before and (hopefully) is working on this. I enjoy playing the game, just want it to evolve more.

+1 DL/OL play has been horrible for years, its a real black eye for Madden. I'm excited about physics, but it really needed to be applied to the DL/OL not for improving tackling animation.

I'm pretty sure using a 200 LB player effectively at DT is a bigger problem than tackling. Line play drives me crazy and its been embarrassing for years.

# 78 TarHeelPhenom @ 06/20/12 01:49 AM

I was messing around with the NCAA 13 demo the other day...spcifically the OL/DL interaction. I was playing as LSU against Bama. I sat and watched the RDE vs. LT. I tried it a couple of different ways and came away with this:

1) With the game on default, if you play as the DE and you let the action begin before you try to make any moves, it automatically goes into the bounce animation. Problem is there is no branching out of it.

2) If you press down/left/right on the left stick immediately after the ball is snapped and attempt your defensive moves agaist the CPU's OL there is a chance this animation will not trigger. I did this a few times and came away either overpowering the OL by pushing him to the ground, getting the sack or barely missing him.

I don't know...maybe the sliders will be able to do something to the gameplay interaction so that you won't automatically go into that bounce animation.

# 79 kongemeier @ 06/20/12 05:27 AM

@ LBz: https://jobs.ea.com/

# 80 RandyBass @ 06/21/12 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	...That fighting towards the QB animation happens a bit more than I thought. Still not enough for my taste. There is still just something wrong though. I've talked about getting defenders out of their stances faster and speeding up the animation. When the animation occurs, notice I'm just standing in the pocket with no urgency to get rid of the football. I have plenty of time. With the QB I don't feel the pass rush closing in or bearing down on me. I chill most of the time. I don't think they need to always disengage, I think there needs to be more push/fight animations. At 3:57 it looks really good on the right side of the screen Baylor OLB vs K State RT. That bounce slows it down and the animation in general is kinda slow. Happens again on the right side at 4:22 and 4:47. Again, I'm just chilling in the pocket. On that last one I step up because I'm looking for the post for the TD. I wonder how this will play out on higher levels? Is the animation faster? Will I be forced to step up?

Those look pretty good, but as you noted they need to have the pass rusher be able to break free to be an actual threat.

I really think as a quick fix they need to give outside pass rushers a boost of some sort so that you do see those guys break free more often, even if they don't have a good set of animations in place to make it look exactly right. So whatever "win" they have for outside rushers, it needs to happen more often.

Then of course long term they need to come up with animations that better represent the fight that goes on at the line.

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