12:19 AM - June 17, 2011 by illwill10
According to Pastapadre and Kotaku, Phil Frazier (Executive Producer for Madden NFL) is the latest to leave EA Sports Tiburon.
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Madden 12 News Post
12:19 AM - June 17, 2011 by illwill10According to Pastapadre and Kotaku, Phil Frazier (Executive Producer for Madden NFL) is the latest to leave EA Sports Tiburon.
Madden NFL 12 Videos
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I'm not the video game insider some people claim to be. But I know this. FIFA has been light years better than Madden for more years than I can count now. If those are the people they're bringing onto the Madden team I say bravo!
# 283
Illustrator76 @ 06/18/11 09:44 AM
My take on this new semi-debate is this: I know for a fact that there are people that are getting tired of falling victim to these overused OS "buzzwords"; it's like being in High School all over again. The hot word to use now is "agenda" (or it's variant "agenda post") taking the place of the now defunct buzzwords "earmuffs" and "placebo effect". I understand that there are people that come here on OS that really do have a motive to be sarcastic idiots and then leave, but there are guys such as myself (and others) that are afraid to be constructively critical of Madden because we will be quickly accused of having an aforementioned "agenda". I know it has been said that this isn't the case, but it sure does not feel like it, and I am far from the only one that feels this way. I also have to agree with others and say that it sure doesn't seem like the guys who are OVERLY defensive about Madden and want to shoot down every negative comment get the same treatment as everyone else.
With all of that being said, regardless of who is taking over the Madden franchise or what EA's plans are, the game needs a lot of work from a gameplay perspective. I am an admitted 2K8 lover, but that is because it is flat out a better game, not because I hate EA, I actually loved Tiger Woods 12, and NHL 11 this year and I am thinking about purchasing Fifa as well. After seeing all of the Madden videos, I am probably NOT buying Madden 12. The game graphically looks awesome, but the Defensive/Offensive line play is absolutely abysmal (along with other areas) and there should be no excuses for it not being properly addressed in years. With me being a Lions fan, I have zero to look forward to on defense because of the ineffective line play.
As I stated in another post: Pretty much every coach in the NFL says that games are won/lost on the Offensive/Defensive line (also known as "The Trenches"), yet this critical area of football is totally broken in Madden, and has been for years. Bullrushing is weak and generally ineffective, the Defensive Linemen are not aggressive enough in general, the 4-3 Defensive Ends play like 3-4 Defensive Ends in that they look to ENGAGE the Offensive Linemen instead of going around them and try to kill the QB (effectively making the 4-3 defense useless, that's why everyone in Online Franchises play a 3-4 Defense), Defensive Linemen (especially) don't have the proper technique when using their moves, Offensive Linemen (Centers especially) "warp" to pick up guys who are about to kill the QB, Offensive Linemen routinely miss simple blocking assignments or just flat out block the wrong guy in general, Defensive Linemen get CONSTANTLY pancaked at the line-of-scrimmage....the list goes on and on.
I think people get so upset and angry over this game and the people at EA (Phil, Ian, etc...) because even things as simple as ball trajectory are (and still seem to be) broken. Super-Linebackers weren't the main reason why too many passes were getting swatted when they shouldn't be, the ball trajectory was, and no one noticed that? Or it was too hard to fix that? I am sorry, but I have a very hard time believing that. Again, I think that is where the hardcore fans are getting upset; it is one thing to say it is too difficult to fix major areas of the game with the snap of a finger, but quick-snapping, ball trajectory, super-Linebackers and the other "smaller" issues that begin to build up should be able to be squashed pretty quickly. I simply can't buy excuses for this stuff when games way older than Madden are STILL doing fundamental football things much better than Madden. Then the problem is that when new things do get implemented in Madden, they are not implemented in the correct "football" manner (see the new "Bullrush" animation for NCAA this year), which again leads many gamers to believe that the people making Madden simply do not know what they are doing.
Again, I can see why people get frustrated and upset when it comes to Madden and the people behind it. I have never personally attacked Ian, Phil or anyone else at EA and I will continue to be that way. With that being said, for football's sake, I hope that whoever is in control of the franchise from here on out will do their best to work on the CORE football issues plaguing Madden, and focus less on all of this fluff that seems to get pushed more and more each iteration (e.g. Gameflow, Online Team Play, Madden Moments, etc...).
With all of that being said, regardless of who is taking over the Madden franchise or what EA's plans are, the game needs a lot of work from a gameplay perspective. I am an admitted 2K8 lover, but that is because it is flat out a better game, not because I hate EA, I actually loved Tiger Woods 12, and NHL 11 this year and I am thinking about purchasing Fifa as well. After seeing all of the Madden videos, I am probably NOT buying Madden 12. The game graphically looks awesome, but the Defensive/Offensive line play is absolutely abysmal (along with other areas) and there should be no excuses for it not being properly addressed in years. With me being a Lions fan, I have zero to look forward to on defense because of the ineffective line play.
As I stated in another post: Pretty much every coach in the NFL says that games are won/lost on the Offensive/Defensive line (also known as "The Trenches"), yet this critical area of football is totally broken in Madden, and has been for years. Bullrushing is weak and generally ineffective, the Defensive Linemen are not aggressive enough in general, the 4-3 Defensive Ends play like 3-4 Defensive Ends in that they look to ENGAGE the Offensive Linemen instead of going around them and try to kill the QB (effectively making the 4-3 defense useless, that's why everyone in Online Franchises play a 3-4 Defense), Defensive Linemen (especially) don't have the proper technique when using their moves, Offensive Linemen (Centers especially) "warp" to pick up guys who are about to kill the QB, Offensive Linemen routinely miss simple blocking assignments or just flat out block the wrong guy in general, Defensive Linemen get CONSTANTLY pancaked at the line-of-scrimmage....the list goes on and on.
I think people get so upset and angry over this game and the people at EA (Phil, Ian, etc...) because even things as simple as ball trajectory are (and still seem to be) broken. Super-Linebackers weren't the main reason why too many passes were getting swatted when they shouldn't be, the ball trajectory was, and no one noticed that? Or it was too hard to fix that? I am sorry, but I have a very hard time believing that. Again, I think that is where the hardcore fans are getting upset; it is one thing to say it is too difficult to fix major areas of the game with the snap of a finger, but quick-snapping, ball trajectory, super-Linebackers and the other "smaller" issues that begin to build up should be able to be squashed pretty quickly. I simply can't buy excuses for this stuff when games way older than Madden are STILL doing fundamental football things much better than Madden. Then the problem is that when new things do get implemented in Madden, they are not implemented in the correct "football" manner (see the new "Bullrush" animation for NCAA this year), which again leads many gamers to believe that the people making Madden simply do not know what they are doing.
Again, I can see why people get frustrated and upset when it comes to Madden and the people behind it. I have never personally attacked Ian, Phil or anyone else at EA and I will continue to be that way. With that being said, for football's sake, I hope that whoever is in control of the franchise from here on out will do their best to work on the CORE football issues plaguing Madden, and focus less on all of this fluff that seems to get pushed more and more each iteration (e.g. Gameflow, Online Team Play, Madden Moments, etc...).
That's also my pet peeve with all football video games....the neglect the LOS interaction gets compared to all the other positions.
The OL is the only position on the field a human cannot control, totally up to the CPU/AI. It seems to me the whole OL is animated as one animation, with say 10 or so different ones, and they just randomly get used from down to down, as well as no adaptive AI coded into the OL -- why nanos exist in all football video games, because it's one whole animation (it seems) + no adaptiveness, you can put the same LB in the same gap using the same formation and get the same nano result down after down, the guards don't think at all, are enslaved to keep doing their pre-programmed blocking assignment.
I have some ideas regarding making OL a user controlled position. Madden had that as a feature before, which was actually pretty good, should stay in imo. But i have another few ideas, but i wont go into them right now.
The OL is the only position on the field a human cannot control, totally up to the CPU/AI. It seems to me the whole OL is animated as one animation, with say 10 or so different ones, and they just randomly get used from down to down, as well as no adaptive AI coded into the OL -- why nanos exist in all football video games, because it's one whole animation (it seems) + no adaptiveness, you can put the same LB in the same gap using the same formation and get the same nano result down after down, the guards don't think at all, are enslaved to keep doing their pre-programmed blocking assignment.
I have some ideas regarding making OL a user controlled position. Madden had that as a feature before, which was actually pretty good, should stay in imo. But i have another few ideas, but i wont go into them right now.
# 285
SageInfinite @ 06/18/11 10:38 AM
EA football period is not getting it done. Neither football game is where it should be. They are making progress though, and it should be noted, but it's definitely not just Madden.
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# 288
thundergatti @ 06/18/11 11:45 AM
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Also, when/how was OL a user controlled position?
Personally, if someone gives feedback like Illustrator in a constructive way, it should be looked at as helping Madden improve. There are other posters that I'll name that do a great job of constructive criticism and I admire them; Bezo, LBz, Tazdevil, OnlyLT and BrianFifafan, and FH . For me, it's all in the approach.
As Skyboxer said, it's the people that go into every thread or throw insults at the developers that I feel don't contribute anything to the cause.
I know people that come in here irregularly feel that I'm one of the Kool-Aid drinkers and most of the time I defend Madden. That's true for the most part because Madden, back in the good old days, gave my college age friends and above some of the best times of our lives. It would literally almost deter us from going to the bars and endless jokes of Maddenisms, "He'll remember that number", or press the C button. I missed out on all of the PS and xbox versions and played on computer with Strutts rosters and many mods to keep the game fresh. So, those were happy times and good memories. Since then, marriage and three active kids have entered life and I don't feel much into Madden as I did 20ys ago with more time constraints.
However, when people don't see me post, is when I'm critical of Madden. Didn't like 08, 09, and 11. I was in the Quick Snap thread putting in how I feel about that and Quick Snap counts won't be in the shipped version. There are other threads like the broadcast cam that I campaigned for, even though I don't use that cam.
I'm hoping the folks that give constructive feedback continue to do so and don't feel timid about people countering their opinions. The only issue I have is when people tell me you are wrong, yada, yada, yada. It only escalates to a back and forth "my opinion is more fact than your opinion routine." To me, it's just an opinion, sometimes right, sometimes wrong and sometimes in the middle.
I have communicated with Ian several times during his tenure on suggestions for the game. A few made, a few didn't.
My opinion, the game needs to make several strides to become a game comparable to nba2k. (don't play hockey or FIFA) Time will tell if these changes will put Madden closer to the nba2k range. Some people are clinging their hopes with Cam Weber(rightfully so because AJ believes in him), but part of me says, we've heard this before.
Change is good, though, so, let's see where this leads the Madden series.
By the way, Illustrator, add Kool-Aid drinker to your buzz words. lol
As Skyboxer said, it's the people that go into every thread or throw insults at the developers that I feel don't contribute anything to the cause.
I know people that come in here irregularly feel that I'm one of the Kool-Aid drinkers and most of the time I defend Madden. That's true for the most part because Madden, back in the good old days, gave my college age friends and above some of the best times of our lives. It would literally almost deter us from going to the bars and endless jokes of Maddenisms, "He'll remember that number", or press the C button. I missed out on all of the PS and xbox versions and played on computer with Strutts rosters and many mods to keep the game fresh. So, those were happy times and good memories. Since then, marriage and three active kids have entered life and I don't feel much into Madden as I did 20ys ago with more time constraints.
However, when people don't see me post, is when I'm critical of Madden. Didn't like 08, 09, and 11. I was in the Quick Snap thread putting in how I feel about that and Quick Snap counts won't be in the shipped version. There are other threads like the broadcast cam that I campaigned for, even though I don't use that cam.
I'm hoping the folks that give constructive feedback continue to do so and don't feel timid about people countering their opinions. The only issue I have is when people tell me you are wrong, yada, yada, yada. It only escalates to a back and forth "my opinion is more fact than your opinion routine." To me, it's just an opinion, sometimes right, sometimes wrong and sometimes in the middle.
I have communicated with Ian several times during his tenure on suggestions for the game. A few made, a few didn't.
My opinion, the game needs to make several strides to become a game comparable to nba2k. (don't play hockey or FIFA) Time will tell if these changes will put Madden closer to the nba2k range. Some people are clinging their hopes with Cam Weber(rightfully so because AJ believes in him), but part of me says, we've heard this before.
Change is good, though, so, let's see where this leads the Madden series.
By the way, Illustrator, add Kool-Aid drinker to your buzz words. lol
# 290
BrianFifaFan @ 06/18/11 11:56 AM
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For myself, at the end of the day it's about the game. As it is for the developers who are still there, and those who departed while they were there. Madden isn't just another IP, it's a gaming icon. They knew it, their bosses know it. The stakes in this game are far higher than a normal title. They have great, gaudy amounts of money invested in the license alone. It has to sell Millions of copies just to turn a profit. I think it's funny that there are peole who get mad when people critque the game or the developers. What was the whole point of the feedback, if not to provide honest, realistic feedback? I was never into the bashing, but there were things that had to be said. This game isn't a game worthy of icon status anymore. Hasn't been for this whole generation. And we had an opportunity to get that across. To the people who had the ability to help change that. Now the "suits" thing, we couldn't talk to them. That was Phil/Ian's job. But we could tell them to tell the "suits" that we felt this was why we decided to look elsewhere for our sports gaming fix. I felt that was us being honest and saying "hey, out here in gaming land the natives are not happy." "You need to realize all isn't well and this is why....." Funny thing is, we were right. Half a Million lost sales later.... If the game game would've been all that, people would've saved their pocket change to come up with the $60, recession or not...
So I agree with you that Ian and Phil aren't the only ones to blame. But they are gone now. Hopefully the strides they made in the confines of their jobs won't be lost to sales pressure. I hope that Madden team gets down into the core issues of the game and makes the underlying engine worthy of all the outer beauty of the art and presentation. I reread the OS interview with Cam and he said the things I wanted to hear. It just has to get done. Now if that means some others have to, or choose to leave, so be it. Just get the game to the level it needs to be. Madden is the only NFL game in town. And that doesn't look like that's gonna change. Guys can call the vocal ones "fanatics," but this is Madden. For sports gamers it is that serious. And EA knows it. Only mighty Fifa gets anywhere near the marketing budget.
# 291
SageInfinite @ 06/18/11 11:57 AM
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And Strutts rosters.
# 293
adembroski @ 06/18/11 12:32 PM
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Ian took over as Lead Designer, and Phil as Senior Producer just prior to the release of Madden 09... Madden 09 was still firmly a David Ortiz production. For Madden 10, the team bit off a bit more than it could chew in one cycle, but you can start to see the creative direction. Madden 11 had Real Assignment AI and Locomotion, two very big technologies and bring it just a bit closer to being sim, and then you have Madden 12, where our focus has been eliminating suction and really focusing on presentation.
Now, to sit here and say it was all Ian and Phil would be wrong. It leaves out the efforts of dozens of engineers, artists, designers, and testers, all of whom have contributed to where Madden has come and where its going. I've said before, one of Ian's greatest legacies is going to be his committment to creating tools that will allow us to do more year over year going forward. One of Phil's greatest legacies is going to be one of leadership and direction that put this team on the right path.
Madden 13 and going forward are going to be awesome games, and it's unfortunate that Ian and Phil are going to be seen as the people who were holding us back simply because of the timing of their departure. The truth, however, is that where we go from here owes a lot to the path they put is on.
It bares pointing out that Madden 12 is really "Year 2" in Ian's 3 year plan, as Madden 11 ran into unforeseen difficulties in production that kept it from being the YoY leap from M10 that it was supposed to be. Still, some of the technological improvements on M11 are going to be central to the overall push we make for the next few years. Again, Loco and RAI are both huge advances in Madden in general, and both need continual improvement, but they're a foundation to work from and, more importantly, an example of a new thinking at EA that hasn't changed with Ian and Phil's departure.
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I have programming experience (C#/C++, and picked up Java because it is extremely similar to C#) but I don't turn my nose to anyone's opinion of the game because of it, and I rarely mention it. If someone says something that isn't correct to my knowledge, I'll just let thm know that that particular comment isn't correct, and explain why.
I know what you mean though.
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That's something that should stay in the game. But I have a few other ideas too...
One idea for instance, is where you have more OL options pre-snap. One would be like hot-routing receivers, except you hot-route individual players on the OL to specifically block certain defenders. As well as a little deeper run-blocking and pass-protection schemes that can be brought up via the d-pad - simple diagrams, like another layer of play-calling screen.
And with that...Id finally give OL some much due love by featuring a top OLman on the cover of M13, say.
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for the guys that are (annually) disappointed with madden....why not update your 2k5 rosters and go about your business?...don't have an xbox?...go buy one...instead of spending $ on madden.
dropping in here every summer and pointing out what everyone who's ever played a football videogame already knows (7 times over ) seems pointless....doesn't it?
dropping in here every summer and pointing out what everyone who's ever played a football videogame already knows (7 times over ) seems pointless....doesn't it?
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Nice to see you want to keep the lines of communication open lol.
I don't make videos. Don't have an agenda other than talking about two of my fav past times. Football and video games. I come on this forum, and the many other forums I frequent to talk about the entity that the forum was created for. Sometimes good. Sometimes bad. I'm just here for the discussion.
I've said a thousand times, I don't come on here to get my ideas in the game. If they see the issue and do something about it, great. If not, I still think that the exchange of ideas is enjoyable.
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I would never say that 12 doen't look to be an improvement from 11. The extent of that improvement though, or even if it is an improvement at all, is all opinion.
You think it looks a lot better? I think it looks a little better. Someone might think that the improvement is so small that it is basically the same as 11. None of those opinions are fact. Regardless of your programming experience.
Wow this thread has really turned into a mumble jumbled mix of mess. 
So many points and counter points, from one thing to the next, all because a Senior Producer apparently got himself a better gig ! Good For you Phil !
And one key topic always brought up, is how much better it all was in Last Gen .....and when I hear that, all I think is....
How in the world did they do that back then, without all of the "advice" and input everyone thinks they need to give nowadays !?!
And with the above bold comment, I can almost take that to seem like we the users have hurt the Game, more than we helped it !
If we were so happy with the game back then (without our input), and now when we seem to think we have the most input, we hate the end product.
It will always be a game...no matter what arguments you try to make for or against it, what it is or what it should be.......it is always a video game.
So many points and counter points, from one thing to the next, all because a Senior Producer apparently got himself a better gig ! Good For you Phil !
And one key topic always brought up, is how much better it all was in Last Gen .....and when I hear that, all I think is....
How in the world did they do that back then, without all of the "advice" and input everyone thinks they need to give nowadays !?!
And with the above bold comment, I can almost take that to seem like we the users have hurt the Game, more than we helped it !
If we were so happy with the game back then (without our input), and now when we seem to think we have the most input, we hate the end product.
It will always be a game...no matter what arguments you try to make for or against it, what it is or what it should be.......it is always a video game.
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