Madden 12 News Post

Why Line Play Will Never Be Realistic in Football Games

02:38 PM - March 31, 2011 by RaychelSnr

With video game baseball season underway, it's the perfect time to make this analogy What realistic hitting would be to baseball games, realistic line play would be to football games -- unplayable for 95 percent of gamers.

To put things in perspective, a hitter at the MLB level has less than .25 seconds to judge a pitch's speed, location and decide whether or not to swing.

How Hard is it to Hit a Baseball?

Hitting major league pitching is so difficult, that succeeding 30 percent of the time is considered successful enough to earn a multi-million dollar contract.

NFL quarterbacks have more time to make decisions than MLB hitters, but with so much more data to take in, a NFL quarterback�s job is arguably the toughest in pro sports.

Read More - Why Line Play WIll Never Be Realistic in Football Games

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# 81 CuseGirl @ 04/02/11 12:13 AM

You can only increase the speed of the game so much tho. And more gamers are getting these super big HD screens, we NORMAL people (not college/pro QBs) are being tasked with seeing an entire "field" that is 32 to 65 inches wide. With a faster pass rush and faster recievers, how are you actually going to see anything?

# 82 CuseGirl @ 04/02/11 12:15 AM

And the Giants video brings back great memories

# 83 CuseGirl @ 04/02/11 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rgiles36


	I'm surprised so many are rather dismissive of this article...I think there are some valid points made. I think back no further to when NCAA 11 was out and the Madden 11 demo debuted. The locomotion in Madden was tuned to be tighter, heavier, and more realistic than that of NCAAs. But in a shock to me, people favored the looser NCAA locomotion. I'm not sure how they compare today after several patches, but my point is not to dismiss this article as if to say people want ALL realism ALL the time.

There's a huge assumption that ALL gamers want "realism". And wut happens is "realism" becomes "not fun". I dont want to throw for 5000 yards a season in NCAA Football 11, but if I'm Andrew Luck or Terrelle Pryor, I wanna feel like it for at least 4 or 5 plays a game. If I'm Julius Peppers in Madden, there should be at least 3 or 4 plays where I'm unblockable.

To an extent, that's how MLB The Show and NBA 2k can be, ESPECIALLY if ur new. It's not fun to be drafted in My Player only to find out you're not only worse than Andy Rautins but ALOT worse than him. The devs at SCEA finally caved in with the RTTS points purchase, so casual gamers who wanna be A-Rod or Griffey, go ahead, go be Griffey.

# 84 Skyboxer @ 04/02/11 05:54 AM

"Why are video game developers keeping the four-man pass rush from being the game-changing entity that it can be in real life?

To put it simply, because the people buying football video games are not NFL quarterbacks"

BS...

The reason is they don't know how. Has zero to do with who's playing the game.
This isn't just with line blocking either, but a lot of areas in the game. That's why more times than not a "feature" is implemented to do nothing more than cover up bad AI programming.

The real question is will we ever get a game that actually moves the genre forward.

# 85 speedkills @ 04/02/11 08:41 AM

APF 2K8 managed to to get line play down just fine ... 4 YEARS AGO.

# 86 seriousluboy83 @ 04/02/11 12:27 PM

while i agree with the message of the thread i want to introduce two solutions...get rid of the "throw out of sacks" crap and slow the drop back of the qbs...this should help some with the lack of 4-man pass rush

# 87 Senator Palmer @ 04/02/11 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seriousluboy83


	while i agree with the message of the thread i want to introduce two solutions...get rid of the "throw out of sacks" crap and slow the drop back of the qbs...this should help some with the lack of 4-man pass rush

Not having the ability to throw out of sacks created horrible issues in Madden 08 and 09. As the QB, you would press to throw to a receiver and nothing would happen if a defender was baring down on you from 2-3 yards away. You would get sucked animation that would trigger as the defender closed and get the most frustrating sacks against you. The lack of control didn't serve the game well at all.

The answer isn't neutering one part of the game to make another better, IMO. Rather, the interactions should be improved. Linemen should have the awareness to time out the snap count and fly off the ball. We should have global control over how aggressively our defensive linemen rush. The interior linemen should push the pocket better, and not attempt ridiculous spin moves that only get them flattened; this would help the edge rushers. And the "quick win" animations that I see when I'm playing against the CPU should be added to my d-linemen, also.

All these are things that I have seen in NCAA 11, by the way.

# 88 edubbs @ 04/02/11 01:58 PM

^^^^^I agree.

Also, the ability to throw to receivers at anypoint in their route needs to be severly penalized. I guess this is pretty much what everyone is referring to when wanting route based passing implemented.

Right now QB's in Madden can just receive the snap and throw immediately before the d can even try to defend or react.

For head to head games, it's infuriating when my opponent can hike the ball and within a second or less, drill the ball to his TE over the middle or a RB heading to the flat literally before my d-lineman can get out of their 3 point stance.

Online this tactic is almost impossible to stop and it's silly that the d can be hamstrung soo badly by this move. It's not even a 3 step drop, it's more like a 1 step drop. And it completely eliminates any chance of getting pressure on the qb.

The QB should take a huge accuracy hit when the ball is thrown immediately after the snap, when the receiver is barely into his route. This in itself would require the QB to hold the ball longer, and atleast give the d line a chance to establish some kind of pressure.

IMO, route based passing and better animating oline/dline interactions would help mask alot of the other missing fundamentals currently not in the madden franchise.

# 89 seriousluboy83 @ 04/02/11 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senator Palmer


	Not having the ability to throw out of sacks created horrible issues in Madden 08 and 09. As the QB, you would press to throw to a receiver and nothing would happen if a defender was baring down on you from 2-3 yards away. You would get sucked animation that would trigger as the defender closed and get the most frustrating sacks against you. The lack of control didn't serve the game well at all. The answer isn't neutering one part of the game to make another better, IMO. Rather, the interactions should be improved. Linemen should have the awareness to time out the snap count and fly off the ball. We should have global control over how aggressively our defensive linemen rush. The interior linemen should push the pocket better, and not attempt ridiculous spin moves that only get them flattened; this would help the edge rushers. And the "quick win" animations that I see when I'm playing against the CPU should be added to my d-linemen, also. All these are things that I have seen in NCAA 11, by the way.

dude believe me i hear what your saying...back in those days i was one that complained about not being able to do so...but with it here man IMO it is horrid...you have major problems from the qb perspective of the ball that neuter the pass rush...no full forced dropbacks/route based passing...dropback animation is too fast...from the defensive side...no awareness of which pass rush moves to use...no actual pass rush attribute/slider (block shed has both)...and from the offensive line...suction blocking...so i guess in a sense if they could fix all of these then throwing out of sacks would be fine

# 90 Rayp @ 04/02/11 04:22 PM

apf did a great job and with edits now it can be even more realistic if you drop back with no rb to help block having a solid 3 seconds is a BLESSING.

# 91 elgreazy1 @ 04/02/11 09:25 PM

Just had a game with a Friend of mine in APF2K8 and he had a stacked defense. His stat line for Reggie White: 4 sacks, 7 tackles, and constant pressure. I had to shift a TE to his side AND leave in a RB to block (ie: 3 on 1) just to contain the guy. I think 2K's system works just fine.

# 92 RazzBerry80 @ 04/02/11 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AzureEffect


	2K has done it most effectively on this generation of consoles. It can be done; question is...will we ever see it again.

This! We know it can be done. Come on Madden, you can do it.

# 93 jyoung @ 04/03/11 12:28 PM

The "fast" game speed was pretty good in APF 2K8 for improving the pass rush, but the problem it created was that WRs ran their routes ridiculously fast.

A gold WR in APF 2K8 already can run a 20-yard post route in 1 - 2 seconds on "normal" speed, which is part of the reason why the 4-man pass rush in the game in so ineffective.

The slow pass rush speed in APF 2K8 just isn't synched very well to the fast WRs' route running speed.

# 94 catcatch22 @ 04/03/11 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wEEman33


	The "fast" game speed was pretty good in APF 2K8 for improving the pass rush, but the problem it created was that WRs ran their routes ridiculously fast. A gold WR in APF 2K8 already can run a 20-yard post route in 1 - 2 seconds on "normal" speed, which is part of the reason why the 4-man pass rush in the game in so ineffective. The (slow) pass rush speed in APF 2K8 just isn't synched very well to the (fast) WRs' route running speed.

Which is why there are bump masters to derail those quick routes, unfortunately just like the inconsistency of the pass rush the "bump" is so random.

I can see what 2k was trying to do to balance the game but yeah they should have given the defense a bit more tools. The defense is constantly trying to keep up with the offense and the offense does not have to do "as much" to keep up with the defense at times.

# 95 wonderl33t @ 04/04/11 12:49 AM

The author apparently hasn't played NCAA on heisman difficulty. You get about 2 seconds of protection on average.

# 96 BezO @ 04/04/11 11:20 AM

I can see EA thinking this way. Much, if not all of the programming is based on this idea. Pass rushing would be no different.

But like others have said, that's what difficulty settings are for.

And I think EA forgets that gamers play defense too, or at least would like to. Being glued to offensive linemen, playing patty cake, is equally frustrating. I just think gamers have become accustomed to it. Everyone just picks the pre-packaged defenses, hopes & waits for their turn on offense.

# 97 silence1206 @ 04/04/11 12:11 PM

I think this article remotely touches some of points made in the OP, and why I'm currently a bit of a disgruntled gamer: http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/39...k_gaming_tech/

Point being, I want my gaming experience to be challenging--And when it comes to football gaming, realistic in every possible aspect. I want to know that I'm playing a game that will stomp my face in if I play like a mindless jack ***. That said, I also understand the gamers who just want to jump in and play some relaxing arcade style football. The only sad thing is that sim-heads have no up-to-date NFL games to get their football fix with. At the very least, it would be comforting to have more options.

One thing that all football games have utterly failed to do is coach up the user in an intuitive way. Madden has the offensive coordinator voice-over and some voice-overs from madden saying "do this" or "do that". But, really, these are very generic instructions that don't get into divulging the subtle details of the game which is really the game's heart and soul. It's not just about the stats sheet at the end looking realistic. It should be about the user knowing enough about defensive alignments and coverages to be able to be successful against the opponent (from either side of the ball). For more casual gamers, if they could be coached up to understand these subtleties, they may find that a deeper more realistic game would not be a frustrating deterrent, but an enjoyable exercise in learning the details that go into making an amazing sport enjoyable to watch/play. (for instance, better knowing the situation they are in in the game, and knowing how to call the right play for the situation--the smarter decision sometimes being the one geared to gaining field position before punting, instead of expecting to get a first down)

In games like 2k5/2k8 or BB, I've seen defenses that absolutely take over a game and constantly forcing me to make descisions I don't want to make. (That doesn't mean I have to roll over and lose the game. It just means I needed to make decisions based on knowing my opponent and finding a way to win in tough, high pressure situations.) Oh, that LB just shot through my line and disrupted my run off tackle. Or, there's a CB coming on a blitz that I don't have enough men to block, so I'm going to have to get the ball out real fast, and possibly have to just take an incompletion instead of gunning the ball into tight coverage. Or, maybe it's just dynamic line play that wound up pressuring me to step up in the pocket, roll out, scramble, or release the ball when I really didn't want to. That's real football, and I've thoroughly enjoyed games that force me to learn to deal with these factors.

It is my perspective that, as a gamer interacting with any sports game, I feel it is much more rewarding to come away with the W in a game that was played realistically. Maybe I had to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, as I picked off a pass from Dan Marino in the endzone and then was able to run it back for a TD. Maybe my D-Line made a clutch sack that put the opponent out of FG range. If I knew these types of amazing plays were the result of some cheesy unrealistic player interctions (like an LB that jumps 20 feet in the air to make a 1-handed interception, or blockers that morph through/around their assignment), then I would feel no sense of reward for the result of the play, good or bad. At least with other games, when I get beat, and can simply accept that I didn't make the right decisions to win. When it comes to madden, it's usually more like "did the AI not fail me enough to allow the opponent to win"

The game I play most these days is APF 2k8. And, I've read other's comments in this thread citing the crazy things that happen with gold-star players. For one thing, I must say, playing with the right sliders will greatly reduce these types of things. (Personally, the best results I've seen is all sliders at 0 except interceptions, fumbles and fatigue) With the right sliders, you will find that selecting legend linemen is not a wasted pick. Secondly, you need to know how to adjust your coverage. The best way to be successful in 2k football games is to get better on defense. Roll your coverage over to the side where there are more receiver threats. Shift to a cover-1 on plays you expect to see a run from the CPU. Slider your D-Line. Send an LB on a delayed blitz. And, being that it's a video game, know that there are some routes that the AI will consistently fail to cover very well, and that you need to be able to manually use your defender to cover this loop-hole. Do these things right, and you will be able to significantly quell any of the oddities that come up against gold-star opponents.

In the end, articles like the one written by the OP frustrate me. Not because I don't understand his point. His point is valid. There will always be gamers who want an arcade style football game. The thing that frustrates me is knowing that, because of the exclusive NFL license, we gamers are left without any choice to see if more realistic NFL football titles would find their way to success as heralded as EA's with madden. At the very least, every gamer deserves to have the freedom to choose between multiple titles to get their football fix. Right now, we do not.

# 98 sportyguyfl31 @ 04/04/11 03:48 PM

I feel APF does it well, but even that game doesnt do it well enough.

Im with Weeman on this one.

If I have Deacon Jones and Dexter Manley as my twin bookends against a all generic OL, Im not asking for sacks every drop back.

What I do expect is some serious stress on a consistant basis. Whoever Im playing should feel those OTs getting overwhelmed by the talent gap, forcing him to max protect.

To me, A generic player in APF is the equivelant of your joe schmoe average NFL player.

Sure, he can make the basic plays, but when matched up against elite level talent on a consistant basis, he gets exposed.

# 99 catcatch22 @ 04/04/11 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportyguyfl31


	I feel APF does it well, but even that game doesnt do it well enough. Im with Weeman on this one. If I have Deacon Jones and Dexter Manley as my twin bookends against a all generic OL, Im not asking for sacks every drop back. What I do expect is some serious stress on a consistant basis. Whoever Im playing should feel those OTs getting overwhelmed by the talent gap, forcing him to max protect. To me, A generic player in APF is the equivelant of your joe schmoe average NFL player. Sure, he can make the basic plays, but when matched up against elite level talent on a consistant basis, he gets exposed.

You bring up a good point but what you and wee neglect is that none of these football games have ever allowed the user to call protection schemes. I mean slide left or right is hardly a protection scheme. Now it they allowed me to specifically call protection schemes and tell my back who to specifically chip and watch then instant pressure is almost unfair.

It is basically if you have no oline you can't play. Now if you allow specific user called doubles, triples, slides and chips in conjunction then it would be fair to add more realistic pass rush speeds.

# 100 booker21 @ 04/04/11 04:57 PM

i guess others have mentioned.

I Don�t have a problem with Default settings being 5 to 7 sec to throw the ball.
But if i lower PB i should get realistic Pressure from the DL. Period.

Why i get sliders if these are not doing what they should?

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