Madden NFL 11 News Post

FBGRatings Seeks to Recalibrate Madden Ratings, Change Game

01:46 PM - January 24, 2011 by RaychelSnr

I recentely sat down for a talk with FBGRatings.com's Dan Berens to discuss his site's vision and what's going on over there today. The site is currently working on getting accurate ratings for every player using real hard data converted into the Madden ratings universe. Dan claims that when these numbers are plugged into the game, it plays much better and much closer to real life. Check out the interview below and also check out Dan's website to see what he's got going on!

Interview with Berens on the OS Radio Show on BlogTalkRadio

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Member Comments

# 41 DCEBB2001 @ 01/26/11 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guaps


	While I applaud Dan's hard work for doing what Tiburon should have done in the first place, I personally feel it's a waist of time. Ratings that reflect "hard data" won't necessarily translate into more realistic gameplay unless we have a complete understanding of how ratings affect gameplay. As it is now I don't think anyone, including the developers really, have that overview. The best "ratings" system I've seen so far in football video games has been the "no-ratings" approach by 2k. If Tiburon really want to make their game "Simpler, Deeper, Quicker" they'll have to take a long, hard look at that approach, because 50+ ratings with little to no transparency makes it, IMO, very hard to distinguish weaknesses from strengths in Madden regardless of "hard data" or not.

That's where I am a step ahead. I have spent the last 2 years analyzing how ratings affect gameplay. It has been broken down attribute by attribute via testing of m10 and m11. It took almost 2 years to do it, but it also helped me develop a working slider and threshold setting. Why else do u think it took so long. If I get some time I will write up a post about what I found.

The big difference is how those ratings are measured and implemented. One example would be agility. My findings indicate that the agility rating has less of an impact on making agile moves than the RB specific ratings. So much so that it is nearly negligent. However, that rating has a bigger impact on performance for an OT...even though an OT still has footwork ratings.

It's possible to understand how these ratings work but it takes time to do it all. The disappointing thing is EA keeps changing their motion. So the next best thing is to use the hard data we have to break down the ratings distribution and create a system of uniformity and cohesion, which I have attempted.

# 42 Vizen @ 01/26/11 10:53 AM

If we use these roster attribute adjustments, how will the draft classes effect the game, since those players do not have the ability to be re-rated?

# 43 Jukeman @ 01/26/11 10:54 AM

if it wasnt for that site, I wouldnt have found MM and OS.

# 44 DCEBB2001 @ 01/26/11 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PanthersGM305


	Dan , This is a Quick one if lets say use the ratings for ex. Big Ben is OVR 85 , The Champ Aaron Rogers has a OVR 95 if they we're to play in Madden edit the ratings to whats on FBGratings I'd say Rogers would out play Big Ben with those ratings. Should he be rate higher like 94 the guy has won 2 rings.

Well keep in mind that these ratings were last updated in July. Now Ben would be higher I am sure. But keep in mind that ratings are based on individual scouting data and not team performance.

# 45 DCEBB2001 @ 01/26/11 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vizen


	If we use these roster attribute adjustments, how will the draft classes effect the game, since those players do not have the ability to be re-rated?

Well the good thing is that rating distributions are similar. The issue is you still have to deal with low AWR in rookies and high OVR ratings. That's the only drawback unless they change the system.

# 46 guaps @ 01/26/11 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCEBB2001


	That's where I am a step ahead. I have spent the last 2 years analyzing how ratings affect gameplay. It has been broken down attribute by attribute via testing of m10 and m11. It took almost 2 years to do it, but it also helped me develop a working slider and threshold setting. Why else do u think it took so long. If I get some time I will write up a post about what I found. The big difference is how those ratings are measured and implemented. One example would be agility. My findings indicate that the agility rating has less of an impact on making agile moves than the RB specific ratings. So much so that it is nearly negligent. However, that rating has a bigger impact on performance for an OT...even though an OT still has footwork ratings. It's possible to understand how these ratings work but it takes time to do it all. The disappointing thing is EA keeps changing their motion. So the next best thing is to use the hard data we have to break down the ratings distribution and create a system of uniformity and cohesion, which I have attempted.

Based on my own testing with M10 and M11 I've found many of the attributes to be inconsistent. That is; if you change one rating you get a certain outcome - hence an idea of how the ratings work - but if you change multiple ratings the engine behaves differently. For example I tested receivers running routes and saw that if I changed only agility for the receivers I got one outcome, but if I changed both the agility and the receiver-specific route running rating the game started producing outcomes that were different from my expectations.

As for agility being different from ballcarrier-specific agile moves, I think it can be explained by animations. The agile move rating determines the effectiveness of the animation, not the agility rating, which only affects how well a ballcarrier turns while running. Yet even when you think you've got an understanding of how the agility rating works, you discover that the 1-yard, 90-degree turns at full speed are present in the game, which, IMO, destroys the illusion that the agility rating has a significant affect on gameplay at all.

I'm looking forward to your ideas and perceptions on how a single rating works and affects gameplay to how the combination of multiple ratings affect the gameplay

# 47 PanthersGM305 @ 01/26/11 12:53 PM

Thanks, Well can't wait for the update's & all players rating filled in, by when can we expect this?

# 48 carnalnirvana @ 01/26/11 03:45 PM

we need a rating test thread, i have tested soo many ratings it would be interesting to throw around some ideas and see what others have been seeing.

agility is still a mystery to me, i have so many different results from that rating

i am noticing that the same ratings do different things for different positions,

# 49 DCEBB2001 @ 01/26/11 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guaps


	Based on my own testing with M10 and M11 I've found many of the attributes to be inconsistent. That is; if you change one rating you get a certain outcome - hence an idea of how the ratings work - but if you change multiple ratings the engine behaves differently. For example I tested receivers running routes and saw that if I changed only agility for the receivers I got one outcome, but if I changed both the agility and the receiver-specific route running rating the game started producing outcomes that were different from my expectations. As for agility being different from ballcarrier-specific agile moves, I think it can be explained by animations. The agile move rating determines the effectiveness of the animation, not the agility rating, which only affects how well a ballcarrier turns while running. Yet even when you think you've got an understanding of how the agility rating works, you discover that the 1-yard, 90-degree turns at full speed are present in the game, which, IMO, destroys the illusion that the agility rating has a significant affect on gameplay at all. I'm looking forward to your ideas and perceptions on how a single rating works and affects gameplay to how the combination of multiple ratings affect the gameplay

What I did was measure how much an attribute affects something inside the game. If you can count frames, you can measure time, distance, and thus velocity. When two attributes work together, they don't just add to the effect, they multiply it. That is how I analyzed all those attributes position by position (which I found doesn't make a darn difference...nor does weight which you are big on FYI).

# 50 DCEBB2001 @ 01/26/11 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PanthersGM305


	Thanks, Well can't wait for the update's & all players rating filled in, by when can we expect this?

If you read a few pages back you can find the answer in detail.

All basic info and raw attributes (Ht, Wt, DOB, College, Draft status, SPD, ACC, AGI, JMP, STR) by June.

All other attributes and updated OVR ratings by late July-August.

OVR ratings again before Week 1.

# 51 bakedpotato4103 @ 01/26/11 05:26 PM

How can you give a speed/acceleration/agility/strength/jump rating to a player like Michael Crabtree, who never ran a 40, 3 cone, bench, or vertical? It seems like there would be no empirical evidence.

# 52 DCEBB2001 @ 01/26/11 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bakedpotato4103


	How can you give a speed/acceleration/agility/strength/jump rating to a player like Michael Crabtree, who never ran a 40, 3 cone, bench, or vertical? It seems like there would be no empirical evidence.

Ah but there IS empirical evidence for Crabtree. I have all of his test data from Texas Tech during his tenure there. We also have scouting data (not all empirical data is numerical FYI) to rely on for players who do not formally test for the NFL or are unable to.

# 53 DCEBB2001 @ 01/26/11 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bakedpotato4103


	How can you give a speed/acceleration/agility/strength/jump rating to a player like Michael Crabtree, who never ran a 40, 3 cone, bench, or vertical? It seems like there would be no empirical evidence.

And since you asked:

Campus: 4.54 in the 40-yard dash...1.61 10-yard dash...2.62 20-yard dash...4.06 20-yard shuttle... 6.87 three-cone drill...270-pound bench press...350-pound squat...34-inch vertical jump.

Combine: Did not work out due to a previous right ankle sprain. Bone scan at the Combine revealed a stress fracture in his left foot.

# 54 bakedpotato4103 @ 01/26/11 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCEBB2001


	And since you asked: Campus: 4.54 in the 40-yard dash...1.61 10-yard dash...2.62 20-yard dash...4.06 20-yard shuttle... 6.87 three-cone drill...270-pound bench press...350-pound squat...34-inch vertical jump. Combine: Did not work out due to a previous right ankle sprain. Bone scan at the Combine revealed a stress fracture in his left foot.

That works for me. Thanks.

# 55 DCEBB2001 @ 01/26/11 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bakedpotato4103


	That works for me. Thanks.

Everything I put up on that site as far as a rating or information is backed up by some sort of data. If I couldn't do it that way, I wouldn't do it at all.

# 56 jmurphy31 @ 01/26/11 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PanthersGM305


	Dan , This is a Quick one if lets say use the ratings for ex. Big Ben is OVR 85 , The Champ Aaron Rogers has a OVR 95 if they we're to play in Madden edit the ratings to whats on FBGratings I'd say Rogers would out play Big Ben with those ratings. Should he be rate higher like 94 the guy has won 2 rings.

Great Question, but I will take it a step further (please dont think I am a biased fan since I usually think most of the patriots are overrated --Merriweather in Madden) but how are the follwoing QBS rated higher than or equal to Brady (89) and even Roethlisberger (84)

Eli Manning - 89
Carson Palmer - 90
Matt Schaub - 90
Matt Ryan - 90
Brett Favre - 90
Philip Rivers - 94 (maybe I can believe this)

# 57 DCEBB2001 @ 01/26/11 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmurphy31


	Great Question, but I will take it a step further (please dont think I am a biased fan since I usually think most of the patriots are overrated --Merriweather in Madden) but how are the follwoing QBS rated higher than or equal to Brady (89) and even Roethlisberger (84) Eli Manning - 89 Carson Palmer - 90 Matt Schaub - 90 Matt Ryan - 90 Brett Favre - 90 Philip Rivers - 94 (maybe I can believe this)

First of all (once again), the ratings you see online are from last July. The OVR does incorporate injuries so if your QB had an injury, it will affect his rating such as when you see it in depth chart mode. If you want to know how they all stack up now, it is like this:

Brady: 98
Manning: 97
Brees: 95
Rodgers: 94
Rivers: 93
E. Manning: 91
Vick: 90
Roethlisburger: 90
Schaub: 90
Ryan: 90
Freeman: 89
Sanchez: 86
Flacco: 84
Stafford: 83
Cassell: 82
Palmer: 81
McNabb: 81
Cutler: 80
Fitzpatrick: 80
Orton: 80

# 58 whodey85 @ 01/27/11 09:40 PM

i cant wait till these come out! so... just to make sure im gettin this right tho, are these the ratings that are gonna be in madden 12? or will this be a roster download for us seperately?

and again.. to repeat others.. thanks for working on ratings! its not the only need but it is a need to be fixed. and its definitely a start to fix madden issues.

# 59 DCEBB2001 @ 01/28/11 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whodey85


	i cant wait till these come out! so... just to make sure im gettin this right tho, are these the ratings that are gonna be in madden 12? or will this be a roster download for us seperately? and again.. to repeat others.. thanks for working on ratings! its not the only need but it is a need to be fixed. and its definitely a start to fix madden issues.

These will not be in Madden 12 out of the box. You have to go on the site, look up the players individually, and then change their ratings in the game OR download an FBG roster that already has the ratings.

# 60 Crimsontide27 @ 01/28/11 09:56 AM

The only question I have is since a majority of the ratings have been found to have zero impact on the players and the game, then what use does this really have?

Anybody can plug a series of well thought out and well rounded numbers into an empty database, if it makes no difference on the field, then its a waste of time. Year after year...after year....after year its been shown that the majority of the ratings do not have any impact whatsoever.

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