NBA Elite 11 News Post

Chris' Blog: Playing the blame game with NBA Elite 11

05:09 PM - September 22, 2010 by RaychelSnr

If you didn't read my thoughts on NBA Elite 11's demo, be sure to check those out now. No need to re-hash what I said there.

What I'd like to do instead is to play some blame game as to who is to blame for what might be one of the biggest disaster releases from a major gaming company in quite some time.

Because somehow, somewhere, someone is to blame for what accounts to the worst basketball title on the market in this generation of consoles. Sony's NBA game outclasses Elite 11, and I'm sure I can name several games over the past decade on far inferior hardware that outclass Elite's gameplay, some completely and laughably dominate Elite.

I wrote about Elite earlier this year, I thought the name change signaled that EA had hit the panic button. Now that we've played Elite and saw the entire Live series was blown up, I think it's safe to say EA definitely panicked.

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# 41 NASIR2385 @ 09/22/10 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blak_Baki_Hanma


	Even if EA doesn't make another hoops title, it will have no impact on the quality of NBA 2k... THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN COMPETITORS. Live is rated E... 2K is rated M The demographics don't even understand one another... hence the vitriol. 2K isn't hyper-realistic because of ANY pressure from EA sports EA isn't actively trying to recreate Double Dribble because of ANY pressue from 2K. Their respective targets are COMPLETELY different. Those with no affinity for authenticity and get pleasure from casually breaking ankles and fantasy dunking have a game to play. Those who, above all, want to recreate the NBA experience also have a game to play. 2K isn't taking customers away from NBA Live... NBA Jams is (because it's the same game as NBA Elite... just 2 on 2)... and that's fine with EA because the money stays home. rEAnimator said it himself, "the goal is 70% ARCADE / 30% SIM"... and the 30% is just the NBA license so gamers can have familiarity with the teams/rosters. So if we would all just LISTEN (including me), we would understand that EA has never had any intention of competing in the SIM market... they have their niche.

wow man i didnt eve know that. that is truly a great point. if you want a game that has the arcade style elite is your game. if you want a game that has the nuances of 5on 5 and the traditional style of play of the nba and all of the courts around the world 2k is yours for the taking to. its basically what ive been telling myself all these years i wanna play a basketball game the way i play the game 5on5 with friends and other college students based on variables of thinking and reading the defense and reacting and making decisions. CHOICE. the problem is choice and yes CONTROL is a key compenant of any sprots game or game itself but theres no purpose of doing 15 threw the leg dribbles per second and behind the backs and euro steps at will if doesnt counteract with the gameplay or the defense. whats the purpose of creating this scheme when you really cant do that in 5on5 bball. WHAT IS THE POINT IN WINNING!! (john connar voice)

# 42 Self313 @ 09/22/10 08:24 PM

then they should make an And1 game then if its not sim...

Im tired of that sim word... basketball is basketball... and this is simply bad basketball

hence the reception... I got lil brothers and cousins callin me tellin me how bad this looks and about the jesus glitch lol... I got friends already tryna see if I'll be makin the same dumb decision I do every year with buyin the EA game first day all to go back and cop the other one a week or so later...

I loved live10 but Elite 11 killed EA's basketball division... and the numbers prolly will show it more than us sayin it...

# 43 MrSimCity @ 09/22/10 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaseB


	I don't really have strong feelings one way or the other on this title as of now -- at least not ones that are that different from how I felt at E3.

At E3, I felt the control scheme had potential and I still feel that way. But just about nothing else was worked on minus the commentary. All resources were allocated to the controls and controls only it seems.

I wondered why EA wasn't being as active in the PR department this year, and it's clear now -- they weren't ready.

# 44 sportyguyfl31 @ 09/22/10 08:32 PM

All of this talk about the death of EA basketball, blah, blah, blah is really nothing but melodrama.

We heard this kind of stuff after NBA Live 06, and NBA Live 07.

# 45 marcmywords @ 09/22/10 08:34 PM

Will start off saying I'm not a fanboy of 2K. I was a Live head from Lakers vs Celtics, but been playing 2k for the last few years. It started for me when I heard their "hockey guy" or "a hockey guy," was heading the project...what? why? Obviously Dr Jack or Phil Jackson isnt gonna join any video game team, but at least have people tht know the game to an extent. Theres nothing that comforted me to believe tht "a hockey guy" would be able to capture the nuances of high level basketball. But I dont blame him....I blame the chuckleheads tht said "hockey is like basketball, tht guy will turn it around." pfft.

# 46 kennyacid @ 09/22/10 08:43 PM

i knew there was gonna be problems when all they talked about was controls and physics and didnt spend enough time talking about gameplay and animation. So no surprise...I blame the whole creative team.

# 47 Carrington618 @ 09/22/10 09:04 PM

I blame us the user for letting a company (ea) slap us around an we still give them money. WE ask for a better game, they try to buy the 2K so we willn t notice that there game is wack. There is not passion in there game you can see that by the way they talk about it. Every time a next gen system comes out it takes EA 3 years to get a good game with all the features from the last gen yet people still buy the crap so i blame US

To make matters even worst they are doing this on-line pass shyt. ok fine for used games. but if i take the copy i got new to a friends i cant play on line if want to use my other account name i cant w/o paying again
this is y i dont buy EA games and i really want need for speed and madden but i just cant give EA any more money with them giving me the finger

# 48 noshun @ 09/22/10 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Court_vision


	I am going to make a big call here........it's definitely not as bad as LIVE 07. That thing was Hall of Fame bad. I think ELITE is definitely better than that game now that I've spent more time with it. It's nowhere near as bad as SONY's basketball games...I think you went way too far comparing it to that SONY NBA thing. That game was the worst game of all time by so far that even a box with no disk inside would have been better than SONY's game. Sadly, ELITE is pretty bad though. The CPU AI has regressed dramatically. I can only assume whoever did the AI knows nothing about basketball / and / or EA simply isn't concerened about USER v CPU this season...... It's unplayable v the CPU. There's no way I can justify buying it this season. First LIVE / ELITE I'll not be buying.

CV this game is just like 07. Remember when I sent you all the emails I sent to EAC CEO David Gardner and dev members Matt, Nate, and Brent Nielsen, well Im getting a little something together becuase this time Im going to email Peter Moore, as well as 3 devs from Elite.

Its no coincidence that the Jason Kid calls a cab freeze glitch from Live 07 is eerily similar to Elite 11's Passion of Bynum pose, or the new double Jesus vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z2bA...layer_embedded

Im just getting everything together, and pulling out all the business cards I gathered. Everything is getting prepped. One of these days Im going to post that email from 06 on these forums because people need to read what I wrote back then, and see why some the Live 07 cycle has come full circle this year.

Even Marcus said that my email back then was famous, I didnt belive him, but we talked about it on meebo, and sure enough I got through back then. Only a few people outside of yourself, Czar, 23, Pared and Luvmist have read that email.

I said it earlier and agree with Czar's "Hockey is not Basketball. My years at DigiPen for game design in production animation, I thought was way too much, but man when I first heard about Live to Elite, something woke me up and I realized that everything that all my teachers who are in the gaming industry taught me.. about game design, 1000's of hours of human anatomy, film class, Maya, XSI, Max, Flash, man it woke me up and I saw exactly what I needed to.

I had a bad feeling about Elite. Let alone I tested Live 07/08. I couldnt even say in the email back then due to NDA but screw that man. We've (gming community) have got to be heard. Everything just woke me up man.. I explained this weird feeling to 23 I had... its the Live 07 cycle just in a slightly different form. While I didnt get why Littman was on this project, and yes he turned NHL around, I understand that EA's basketball games needed a view from outside of NBA, so that they can see whats wrong from someone elses perspective. But the bad thign about it is that Littman said hes not a basketball guy, so its a double edge sword. You def need someone outside of your comfort zone, but he shouldve had a co-producer in basketball at his level him to help him oversee.

If you want to get the point across you gotta contact the people at the top(CEO, suits) and let your voice trickle down through the ranks like I did back then. You also gotta show them with your wallet and stand by it.

Not saying that people cant be happy with what they do with their money, but man buying mediocrity when you should be getting much more in terms of quality for your money, at some point you gotta do things you dont like doing.

Edit: I dont recall anything on the wishlist sighting change of control. That was Live 10's strongest point in terms of gameplay. Teh Surveys after Live 07,08 just went by the wasteside man. People have been asking for shortened season since Live 06.
What was the point of asking us the consumer about surveys if the things we want arent even being implemented and still to this day end up on wishlist like "shortened season options"?
Live 96 on Genesis had this option of 29/56/82. Hell Visual Concepts made that game too, if people didnt know.

Its like what we ask for doesnt even matter, becuase the suits and sales are going to dictact what EA games are going to be like, and they only give us what we what when sales show a big dip. EA's NBA is just getting ESPN after 5 games on next gen, and I not talking about score ticker or radio show options. People are slowly waking up or getting disappointed man, and now this year this game is on its last Life Line.

Animations are choppy, just like Live 07. The cycle of mediocrity is upon us once again. Too much control is making the game do thing that are beyond the realm of what the human body can do in real life. Im so thankful for anatomy class man.. look at half the stuff going on in the demo man is a travshamockery. This game needs some canned animations so this game doesnt over exaggerate the movement of what the body can do in real life, and its goign to kill this game. Too much control allows us to make teh game look spastic as I said about a month ago.

Sorry for the rant, and trust me its not that Im a fanboy, its just learning about game design and then seeing all these oddities, is such a disappointment, for the artist in me when I see this stuff and know, this shouldnt be happening, period. Guess I got what I needed to say off my chest.

If the mods say its okay, I will post that email, as well as the few responses I got back from EA back then. But its the mods call.

# 49 gameova24 @ 09/22/10 09:07 PM

everyone needs to stop look at it like a sequel to live 10.....its a new game in its 1 year out of 3 year cycle....its going to be good but its not as bad as everyone is saying it is.....i bet everyone that says its bad is a fan of 2k....cuz i like both....but at the same time elite is giving you guys something else to try other then 2k so if you dont like it go back to the game you like...there not playing it safe they try something and you guys jump all over them...its crazy.....and you guys say redo the franchise and they do and this happens....everyone wants them to be like 2k....but there not

# 50 carnalnirvana @ 09/22/10 09:20 PM

i think Ea is right they want to be, many may disagree but i strongly feel they have laid the foundation for their goal domination of the online user vs user basketball market....

fifa... many sing its praises but it has completely forgotten about the offline gamer for the last 3 yrs while it built its online gamer base. now it sells mainly as a online game. you want offline gaming you went to its competition who did ML very very well. anyone who is a serious footie junkie knows manager mode is beyond broken......

same thing is happening here the comp is doing franchise mode well so why compete with that since they cant get online right for years now. this is a business and if you are behind you do what the competition cant get right. The online market has grown so huge in recent years online basketball is there for the taking.

hence the focus on player control, and the blatant ignoring of the AI ala fifa

its becoming a multiplayer world, the days of gaming alone atleast in my opinion is slowly dying.

and i think its time we accept that basketball games are complementing each other, one has offline play done well the other does online well. now all ea has to do is beef up its looks and visual flair and its "cha ching"

i think the last thing standing in EA's way is our years of loyalty, to LIVE...

this is elite the online basketball simulator

# 51 Gotmadskillzson @ 09/22/10 09:25 PM

EA brought this storm upon themselves when they changed their title to Elite. When you call your product Elite, then consumer expectation of that product is going to be sky high.

I mean that is like a guy walkng around with a t-shirt saying I'm a stud across the front of it but the guy is a 5ft tall steve urkel.

If you going to talk the talk, your product has to back it up. So honestly Elite doesn't live up to it's name. 3 years from now, maybe it will, but not this year.

And if EA have to pull this game from stores, it wouldn't be the 1st time EA did it, they did it with Madden back in the day as well.

# 52 ChaseB @ 09/22/10 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSimCity


	At E3, I felt the control scheme had potential and I still feel that way. But just about nothing else was worked on minus the commentary. All resources were allocated to the controls and controls only it seems.

Yeah, I dunno, it probably has something to do with expectations. I always felt like the first NHL on 360 was overrated because I thought the controls worked but not much else was really done well there. I kind of was using that as a baseline for this title.

But I've said in the past that I thought the difference was that at the beginning of a generation you could get away with a NHL-style remake, while now it's a bit of a tough sell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Court_vision


	I am going to make a big call here........it's definitely not as bad as LIVE 07. That thing was Hall of Fame bad.

Ha, yes THANK YOU. That's what I said early on in this thread. That game was just an abomination.

# 53 TheBrothers24 @ 09/22/10 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carnalnirvana


	i think Ea is right they want to be, many may disagree but i strongly feel they have laid the foundation for their goal domination of the online user vs user basketball market....

Exactly how I feel. I believe this game was built for online play as the main course and offline play was just a side dish. This whole game was made to center around the EASBA. They saw what fifa and NHL did and how it gets a lot of praise for it's online features and figured the same will translate for this franchise as well. Well at least for this year. I've accepted this game as a user vs user game and solely that.

Too bad I am not an avid online gamer so this game is not for me.

# 54 Gotmadskillzson @ 09/22/10 09:48 PM

If sports games start going that route of focusing on online only, then they need to release two seperate games. Make an online version of the game for a set price, then release a game for offline users at a set price.

# 55 IV THA UNITY @ 09/22/10 09:53 PM

I'm sorry but this has to be said and this is just my opinion. EA makes weird decisions on who should lead their projects. Why is Ian Cummings a Lead on Madden when his favorite sport is soccer and Littman is a Hockey guy working on a Basketball game. I mean I love basketball more than baseball so if I worked on a Baseball game the passion wouldn't really be there, no matter how much I tried I would have to follow that sport for years before I could make a serious impact on that type of game.

# 56 Aces15 @ 09/22/10 10:12 PM

I agree with some of the voices in here that are saying that the Elite team is probably pretty happy with where they are with the game.

I think this whole name change along with the foundation that was already in place came from a rash decision that was made based off of not wanting to compete with 2K.

You guys are saying how Live 10 was the best reviewed Live in a while, and it really was a pretty solid game. But then the suits looked at the sales, and obviously they were doing something wrong if sales were that bad.

And all the while, the reason the game was getting such good reviews was because it was getting closer and closer to the style of 2K ball (even though it had some very unique aspects to it that set it apart).

I think this led to them just doing a 1+1 in their head, and deciding that in order to sell they needed to distance themselves from everything out there, and that's exactly what they did.

# 57 Pared @ 09/22/10 10:22 PM

Great post noshun.

# 58 Stickz24 @ 09/22/10 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logic Doctor


	Don't mean to say I told you so but...... Here's what I said 3 months ago when Pasta posted the article about the Live name change to Elite. "Something EA definitely had to do. Live's reputation became too much to overcome regardless of what was released. NBA 2k owns the simulation crown which is both a gift and a curse. Why you ask? Because the closer you get to a simulation the further you move from a fun game. Ultimately, a large majority of gamers want to be able to pick up a controller and dominate without having to focus intensely or spend hundreds of hours refining their stick skills......and that is a completely reasonable expectation. There is in fact a market for a more arcade like, storyline-driven NBA gaming experience. Hence my next point.EA should have put NBA JAM at the fore front of their basketball gaming strategy this year releasing the classic across all platforms. Once released on PS3 and XBOX 360, I guarantee NBA JAM outsells Live/Elite 11', by a LARGE margin. If EA corporate had any sense they would have clearly seen the benefit in that this move would have allowed them an extra year for the development of what is ultimately going to be a new NBA title and a realistic opportunity to really go back to the drawing board and do something cool and different with NBA Live/Elite. Instead, I fear NBA Elite is destined to simply be a retread of NBA Live sprinkled with a bit of NBA Street, held together with scotch tape and toothpicks. I mean, what else could be reasonably expected from EA in 1 year? From any development team really, especially when your competition is the unstoppable juggernaut that is 2k and an in house rebirth of basketball gamings God Father, NBA Jam. I hope i'm wrong and EA manages to pull an awesome alternative to NBA 2k out of their *** because like I said earlier, 2k is moving in a very tricky direction with regard to the definition of simulation and if their not careful may begin alienating segments of their fan base as well as newcomers to the series. Only time will tell I guess." creepy isn't it

---
Man, love it when I see other people who think like me. There was a kid who complained 2k was getting boring. Perfect example, a lot of people are not really fans of basketball and just don't know the game. Maybe they are too young, .. whatever. What does a 18 yr old kid .. really appreciate about the technicalities of an intricate offense? Not much.
The millions of cheesers we like to complain about online ... all those repeated quits .. ironically - they are the one's who keep the 2k ship afloat.

The can pick up a game .. beast in the paint, shoot a few threes .. get a win - feel good and keep it pushing. The don't care about records .. or being "nice" at the game. So when they hit one of us super sims .. they just quit and go back to doing what they do vs. the masses.

The more sim 2k gets .. the less they'll be able to do that. Unless 2k identifies and specifically targets a different market - sales will inevitably begin to decline. That's probably why you have not had and probably will never have a true sim game. Because devs are constantly seeking that mix of fun and "sim".

What I do think though, is that 2k rely on their brand power to spread the butter so to speak. I hope they are listening .. cause it will come to this real soon.

Use these next 2 (maybe 3) years as advertisement for 2ks capabilities with role playing games, playground games/NBA jam/street type games and sims. In 2 years .. split up the games. Make one really deep myplayer/role playing game and another really deep sim game. Reduce the prices of both games .. just slightly. Say $35 - $45 each. What you have now is a single game that's going for about $70 ish dollars but that reaches the two primary segments of your market that would otherwise have cannibalized each other. If you do it right, what you'll have is .. the sim players who are likely more mature .. will be able to dip into the market for the role playing games as well (and some vice-versa). Depending on how things are going .. maybe you put out a cheap street type title ... see how that goes.
Now you have 3 products on the market .. sell them all under one marketing umbrella though ...

Without careful estimates .. you're looking at an
average purchase of about $70-$80..on what would have been a unit before. The DLC market is about to open up .. so material costs will likely not be an issue. Whatever they do, they'd probably want to focus on beefing their capacities so that development, production and marketing is streamlined for cost efficiency.

But without the rant .. 2k has an amazing opportunity here if they can see 2-3 years down the line and begin to focus on changes and segments within their market.

They'll have the advantage of the assymetries they've developed over the years, and brand loyalty. This would be the template I'd follow for tapping out the basketball market. .. Maybe in 5,6,7 years .. they would have perfected their products and just rely on incremental improvements (cash cow). The market would point them .. as it is now .. is the next steps direction once they begin this path.

Long story short .. I feel you brah. I'm sure the minds at 2k have begun to consider these realities though. If not, here it is .. the more we discuss it, 2k, the clearer the details and your exact path will likely become .
1 y'all.

# 59 jmood88 @ 09/22/10 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Playmakers


	is controlls all that matter in a basketball game? tell me something beyond controlls that made you think it was playing basketball? Do you enjoy the the things you see out of the AI? Are you happy with the way the game moves once you leave the practice gym? Do you even care that the AI still attempts the weirdest looking shots even within 5 feet from the basket? Is this game just all about what you can do with the control of your players or does anything else even matter to you guys

Yeah I'm really not understanding the people who keep saying that the only reason anyone would have a negative opinion of the game is because of the controls. I had no problem picking up the controls(all it really is is moving the right stick around for dribbling and passing with the trigger) but everything surrounding the game is really bad.

# 60 inkcil @ 09/22/10 10:32 PM

Chris,

I agree with you 100%! Great blog post.

I really wish EA had put out a decent game this year...but this offering is horrific.

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