Madden 2010 News Post

Madden NFL 10 Blog: Player Ratings - A New Philosophy, A New Era

07:53 PM - February 9, 2009 by Ian_Cummings

Hey guys, we thought it would be a perfect time to share something that I am personally very excited about for Madden NFL 10. We took each and every rating in the game (over 50+ player ratings) and scaled them up/down in a way that is now using much more of the scale. I like to describe it around the office like this…”We basically stretched out the ratings.” We want to use more of the numbers so we get a bigger, more noticeable affect in the game.

Let me give you guys an example….in Madden NFL 09 all of the WR’s Route Running ratings ranged from 62-99. In the current Madden NFL 10 build, WR’s now check in from 35-99. To counter this on the defensive side, all CB’s in Madden NFL 09 had a Man Coverage rating which ranged from 64-99. Now in Madden NFL 10, CB’s Man Coverage range is currently 40-99.

Every position and every rating has been re-scaled to expand the range of numbers we are dealing with. The Overall Rating for your average NFL player has dropped. Your Joe Average linebacker who was 80 OVR is now dropped down to 70. The players who were before right on the cusp of 90 in a rating category are now down around 85-88…Meaning, there are fewer superstar players out there. Before, where you could maybe get by throwing to your slot WR who had 93 SPD, with 74 ROUTES, and 77 Catching…now in Madden NFL 10, that guy is going to have like 91 SPD, 60-65 ROUTES and anywhere from 65-70 Catching. Let me tell you, these rating drops make a big difference when that slot rookie WR with 90+ speed now drops every 3rd pass or so, or just simply cannot get open.
The superstars have not been affected however, this is intentional. Peyton is still 99 OVR, Patrick Willis a 99, Larry Fitz is 99, etc. The elite players at rating categories have not been affected either (JaMarcus Russell still has a 98 Throw Power and Chris Johnson still rated 99 Speed). [Side note: One of my personal goals is to have the actual NFL players in Madden NFL 10 look like their real-life counterparts and play to their strengths and weaknesses like never before in a football video game.]

Speaking of the Speed, which is always a hot topic, we made some major changes with the infamous SPD rating as well. To give you a great example, I will again go back to WR and CB. In Madden NFL 09, the WR SPD range was 85-100…CB was 87-99.

In Madden NFL 10, WR SPD range is currently 70-100…CB is currently 75-99. So as you may or may not tell, the SPD range has been pushed down, in our opinions, to better reflect the “sim-gameplay” style that Ian and Phil have been telling you about all winter long. This SPD change has been updated for each position, so it makes a huge game play affect.

Ian and I had a game the other day where Earnest Graham broke one up the middle for a 55 yard touchdown run… and he could not be caught!…E-Grahams’ Madden NFL 10 current SPD rating….80 SPD. That should give you a good sense of what is possible with the new ratings. It’s not all about having the 90+ SPD anymore. On this particular run, Ian’s CB’s got hung up against some blockers and all I had to do was beat one safety and Graham was gone! He had Brandon Jacobs and his 85 SPD breaking some long runs as well. On the flip side of bigger/slower backs, Chris Johnson is absolutely lethal right now. You can actually get him outside with sweeps now and he is a beast to stop. But again, we are constantly tuning the gameplay, we have an entire team dedicated to that and they are some of the best people we have in the building.

So there you have it, player ratings are in for a major overhaul this year and I am really excited already with the impact they are having on the early builds of the game. And rest assured, we are well aware of the outside impacts this will have….Rookies will now come into the league based on the new ranges, NCAA Import guys are being tuned as well…Progression has been accounted for as well to better reflect breakout stars and burned-out former stars. Meaning, we want to have bigger jumps in OVR this year, both positive and negative. That’s all for now, probably gave away too much already!

Would love to hear any feedback about this big new change in the way we do player ratings. I’d be happy to answer any questions regarding the new rating ranges….please no individual ratings questions, not answering those! Stay tuned for more Madden player rating related blogs in the future!

- Donny Moore – Madden NFL 10 Designer

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Member Comments

# 221 shttymcgee @ 02/11/09 08:53 AM

Have the speed differentials been adjusted? IE wr's being twice as fast as dl? Is the speed rating a % one or are the differentials not linear?

# 222 youALREADYknow @ 02/11/09 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnwood


	I think there is a HUGE fallacy in numerical ratings to begin with. If the goal is better gameplay then scrapping numerical ratings, adding specific abilities (maybe shortcomings as well), and putting in realistic fatigue will change the game.

No matter what garbage they choose to show you in game menus, there will ALWAYS be numbers that define a player's performance in video games. These are computers we're talking about people.

Will people please stop asking for numeric ratings to end.

I've even seen people foolishly ask for a "star" rating system in place of the 1-100 scale. What makes someone think that a 5 point scale will be more accurate than a 100 point scale? Do you really think there are only 100 variations of speed between all football players, let alone 5?

Just stop the rating system bashing.

# 223 youALREADYknow @ 02/11/09 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avii


	I would like a feat system implemented. Like a WR with a "Sideline catch" feat will more likely keep his toes in when stretching to catch it on the sideline. Not all the guys who can catch the ball when its thrown to them (massive catch ratings) can do this. "Catch in DT" feat, "Shake-n-Bake" feat, "Bulldozer" feat, "brick Wall" feat etc, when added to players can create much more realistic player variations than ratings alone can convey.

Why do they need to add gimmicky and corny labels to achieve this? All we're talking about here is triggering a different animation package for different skill sets, so the game already has the data to figure this out.

If my WR has above 90 JMP and SPC and exceeds a certain height, then he should have access to all of the tall player jump ball spectacular catch animations.

My 5'9" WR with 70 JMP and SPC shouldn't be able to use that same animation package.

# 224 bgizle @ 02/11/09 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donny_Moore


	Calvin Johnson should be fun at least. You are talking about an 0-16 team, first of it's kind. I believe the expectation (and rightfully so IMO) from most people who care to dabble in this kind of thing, I think that expectation for the Lions in Madden 10 the video game is for them to be the very worst of all 32 teams in the league. I'm talking clear-cut, 32 of 32. And on paper, aside from Megatron as mention above, the Lions will be pretty bad. Kevin Smith will get a nice bump, he shows signs which is OK, but then you have first round pick Gosder Cherilus....he had a Joe Average year, so he's not much to build around. Ernie Sims is the one nice thing on defense, not much else to get excited about. Name the Lions Corners. See what I mean... Your turn, now you tell me. If you had two average, evenly matched All-Pro Mode players playing against each other....And they went heads up Steelers vs Lions....each getting to be the Steelers 5 times...what would you EXPECT/WANT the Madden 10 results to be? Would you want a 50/50 (5-5) Detroit/Pittsburgh split? A 10-0 Steelers sweep? I have a very strong opinion on this one (as you may or may not tell from this post). Would love to hear where everyone stands on this!

I think, personally, that any given team can beat any other. One of the best things about NFL, you never know whats going to happen. No one had Atlanta or Miami winning 11 games this year.

# 225 bgizle @ 02/11/09 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donny_Moore


	We are very much taking all the ratings into consideration. I have not done this to one single rating or one single position (blanket, across the board lowering of ratings). So while I do go in and have the intent to lower a particular rating, for a particular position...I do so by hand, for each guy and each rating. Painful yes, but it really needs that level of attention IMO. Every single NFL player is unique and has his own set of strengths and weaknesses. You can't just go in and say Minus 10 for every player. Doesn't work like that - if you want to do it right of course! Dev Henderson is a great example...He is super fast (95+) but his CTH and ROUTES are completely average to below average. He might be able to get deep every once in awhile, but this guy is going to falter if you try and make him your #1 and give him 10+ targets a game. He is simply not going to perform with 55 rated hands and 50 rated routes (not sure off top of my head what Devery is, but that is close). Roy Williams the Safety is another great example...He has Linebacker quality run stopping abilities....Block Shedding, Tackle, Hit Power..But his Pass Coverage skills are very poor in Man Coverage and Zone Coverage. That is the one thing I ALWAYS look for when creating a player for the first time, creating their ratings. I want to know, what is this guy best at and what is he worst at.

I definitely agree that Henderson's Route Running needs some work, but I don't think he has the worst hands in the league or anything. He is the Saints 'big play' receiver, because of the speed and agility.

Devery Henderson -2008
Targeted: 57
Catches: 32
Drops: 2

The top of my head, when it comes to WR's, I think straight to Terrell Owens, who is usually the perennial leader on Dropped passes. But since he's such a physical specimen, he's a beast.

# 226 shttymcgee @ 02/11/09 10:33 AM

[quote=youALREADYknow;2039174442] Do you really think there are only 100 variations of speed between all football players, let alone 5?

quote]

There's about 15 different speed variations in the nfl 4.2 to 5.7. The hundredths place in the 40 yd dash is basically insignificant. For speed, the numbers aren't the problem, the problem is that there is too much of a differential between slower players and faster ones. Wide receivers don't cover20 yds in the same time it takes a dt to cover 10, but this is what is happening in the game when the dt speed rating is 45 and the wr's rating is 90

# 227 youALREADYknow @ 02/11/09 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shttymcgee


	For speed, the numbers aren't the problem, the problem is that there is too much of a differential between slower players and faster ones. Wide receivers don't cover20 yds in the same time it takes a dt to cover 10, but this is what is happening in the game when the dt speed rating is 45 and the wr's rating is 90

I agree, but that is because of the way ratings are converted into game speed (the speed curve). It is not due to the scale of the ratings. Also, variations in speed aren't determined by 40 times. The 40yd dash is mostly acceleration and a few yards of true top speed. You would need to take a split segment of the 100yd dash, for example, to get some better measurement of speed and then you would see huge gaps between elite and average speed.

In an actual football game, players rarely reach their top speed and the in-game speed is mostly agility, acceleration, lateral quickness, and quick decision making. In my opinion, the speed rating is used far too often in EA football games to determine player movement. The idea that a HB's "speed" matters in the backfield like it does in this game is simply absurd to me.

Ray Lewis can gain ground on Chris Johnson in the backfield or between the tackles or on a sweep play, but he's not going to catch him in the open field in a foot race from behind.

# 228 burnwood @ 02/11/09 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by youALREADYknow


	No matter what garbage they choose to show you in game menus, there will ALWAYS be numbers that define a player's performance in video games. These are computers we're talking about people. Will people please stop asking for numeric ratings to end. I've even seen people foolishly ask for a "star" rating system in place of the 1-100 scale. What makes someone think that a 5 point scale will be more accurate than a 100 point scale? Do you really think there are only 100 variations of speed between all football players, let alone 5? Just stop the rating system bashing.

No, thank you, I will not stop asking for the end of numerical ratings. There are very valid points to bring up. Nice try in an attempt to shut me up.

The point that I'm trying to highlight in the imperfections of assigning a numerical OVR value to player is what really separates the 99 players across positions? A 99 QB, WR, LB, RB. Is it speed, catching, throwing? I just think it would be better to highlight that specific player's abilities and throw in their weakness as well. I know behind the scenes numbers are in play. We are dealing with 0's and 1's.

# 229 Dynamite @ 02/11/09 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon22


	There needs to be acceleration.

Well said, but there more or less needs to be realistic expectations on the O-Line. These are 5 yard burst type of guys, meaning that they need to be swift in a 5 yard box all around them, whereas a running back needs end-line speed, with quick top speed. Hometown Buffet isn't going to beat anyone in a track meet, but you better believe that he's gonna be on you in a second when that ball snaps.

# 230 shttymcgee @ 02/11/09 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by youALREADYknow


	I agree, but that is because of the way ratings are converted into game speed (the speed curve). It is not due to the scale of the ratings. Also, variations in speed aren't determined by 40 times. The 40yd dash is mostly acceleration and a few yards of true top speed. You would need to take a split segment of the 100yd dash, for example, to get some better measurement of speed and then you would see huge gaps between elite and average speed. In an actual football game, players rarely reach their top speed and the in-game speed is mostly agility, acceleration, lateral quickness, and quick decision making. In my opinion, the speed rating is used far too often in EA football games to determine player movement. The idea that a HB's "speed" matters in the backfield like it does in this game is simply absurd to me. Ray Lewis can gain ground on Chris Johnson in the backfield or between the tackles or on a sweep play, but he's not going to catch him in the open field in a foot race from behind.

Agreed, my complaint is about how quickly skill position players pull away from DL and LB's, although I question what you mean by huge gaps.

# 231 ch46647 @ 02/11/09 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donny_Moore


	NOBLE my friend, safe to say you will NOT be disappointed in the least with the Arizona Cardinals offense of Madden 10! That is, as long as Old Man Kurt Warner doesn't retire on ya! If you guys have to go with Leinart back there, it might be ugly.

I am surprised this statement was not more commented on by the community. This IMHO means that the QB position is getting alot of work. Hopefully there will now be a MUCH bigger difference between quaterbacks, other then just the arm strength.

# 232 TDKing @ 02/11/09 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donny_Moore


	Calvin Johnson should be fun at least. You are talking about an 0-16 team, first of it's kind. I believe the expectation (and rightfully so IMO) from most people who care to dabble in this kind of thing, I think that expectation for the Lions in Madden 10 the video game is for them to be the very worst of all 32 teams in the league. I'm talking clear-cut, 32 of 32. And on paper, aside from Megatron as mention above, the Lions will be pretty bad. Kevin Smith will get a nice bump, he shows signs which is OK, but then you have first round pick Gosder Cherilus....he had a Joe Average year, so he's not much to build around. Ernie Sims is the one nice thing on defense, not much else to get excited about. Name the Lions Corners. See what I mean... Your turn, now you tell me. If you had two average, evenly matched All-Pro Mode players playing against each other....And they went heads up Steelers vs Lions....each getting to be the Steelers 5 times...what would you EXPECT/WANT the Madden 10 results to be? Would you want a 50/50 (5-5) Detroit/Pittsburgh split? A 10-0 Steelers sweep? I have a very strong opinion on this one (as you may or may not tell from this post). Would love to hear where everyone stands on this!

10 - 0 Steelers. I can't wait to start my Madden 10 franchise with the lowly lousy Lions and try to turn them around.

# 233 BezO @ 02/11/09 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnwood


	The point that I'm trying to highlight in the imperfections of assigning a numerical OVR value to player is what really separates the 99 players across positions? A 99 QB, WR, LB, RB. Is it speed, catching, throwing? I just think it would be better to highlight that specific player's abilities and throw in their weakness as well. I know behind the scenes numbers are in play. We are dealing with 0's and 1's.

I could do without the overall rating since it doesn't mean much. 2 99-rated QBs are going to be 99s for different reasons. I'm only interested in those reasons. Is my QB a 99 because he's very aware & accurate? Is it because he's mobile with a strong arm? The overall doesn't tell me much other than the formula EA used to combine individual ratings resulted in a certain number.

But eliminating the numerical rating for individual ratings should not happen. I think the point someone was making was each skill will always be governed by a number whether its shown to us or not. They weren't talking about programming 0s & 1s, they were talking about the 100 point scale.

Example: 2 extremely fast guys, one runs a 4.2 & the other runs a 4.3. Both would end up with the Speed Ability, but how would you make the 4.2 guy a bit faster than the 4.3 guy? You have to do it with some sort of scale. Slapping a Speed label on the fast guys doesn't differentiate them. EA & most other sports game companies use a 100-point scale because it gives you the potential of 100 variations of speed. The only thing that could be more accurate is to stretch the scale, not eliminate it.

# 234 thudias @ 02/11/09 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TDKing


	10 - 0 Steelers. I can't wait to start my Madden 10 franchise with the lowly lousy Lions and try to turn them around.

Yup.. that is the challenge I will want to take as well.

# 235 burnwood @ 02/11/09 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BezO


	I could do without the overall rating since it doesn't mean much. 2 99-rated QBs are going to be 99s for different reasons. I'm only interested in those reasons. Is my QB a 99 because he's very aware & accurate? Is it because he's mobile with a strong arm? The overall doesn't tell me much other than the formula EA used to combine individual ratings resulted in a certain number. But eliminating the numerical rating for individual ratings should not happen. I think the point someone was making was each skill will always be governed by a number whether its shown to us or not. They weren't talking about programming 0s & 1s, they were talking about the 100 point scale. Example: 2 extremely fast guys, one runs a 4.2 & the other runs a 4.3. Both would end up with the Speed Ability, but how would you make the 4.2 guy a bit faster than the 4.3 guy? You have to do it with some sort of scale. Slapping a Speed label on the fast guys doesn't differentiate them. EA & most other sports game companies use a 100-point scale because it gives you the potential of 100 variations of speed. The only thing that could be more accurate is to stretch the scale, not eliminate it.

Fair enough. If you wouldn't get rid of the numerical values then I'm sure you think some of the attributes should not be included for certain positions.

For example an offensive lineman doesn't need a attribute for KP, THA, CTH. It's this type of stuff that I'm really drilling down on that probably formulates into their OVR rating.

# 236 thudias @ 02/11/09 01:11 PM

I still prefer HC's approach to ratings. In HC ratings were determined on a value system to each team. So am undersized Tampa 2 linebacker had a higher numerical rating on the Colts than he would on the 3-4 Patriots.

# 237 Golden28 @ 02/11/09 01:48 PM

All this talk of player ratings got me thinking.

As so much effort is obviously going into the ratings, when Madden 10 comes out, what skill level should we be using to create a true ratings based game?

What I mean by this... at the moment, if you aren't a particularly good player then you can select rookie skill, which in effect, will make your 75 rated reciever catch, run routes and juke like a 99 rated reciever.

If I want my reciever to play to his true ratings against the CPU doing the same, what is the 'level playing field' skill level? Pro? All Pro?

I wondered as I want a true sim style game where the only thing that matters is the ratings, not the sliders.

# 238 BezO @ 02/11/09 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnwood


	Fair enough. If you wouldn't get rid of the numerical values then I'm sure you think some of the attributes should not be included for certain positions. For example an offensive lineman doesn't need a attribute for KP, THA, CTH. It's this type of stuff that I'm really drilling down on that probably formulates into their OVR rating.

Absoulutely! Hide them, something, but I hated scrolling through unecessary ratings. And if they do include these irrelevent ratings in the overall formula, they should remove them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thudias


	I still prefer HC's approach to ratings. In HC ratings were determined on a value system to each team. So am undersized Tampa 2 linebacker had a higher numerical rating on the Colts than he would on the 3-4 Patriots.

I think I'd prefer absolute ratings that stuck with a player from team to team so I could determine his value on a particular team and in different schemes.

What exactly governs the ratings? Would that undersized LB have higher ratings on all Cover 2 teams? Will he hold his value if his current team changes their defensive philosophy? Does he maintain that higher value when I run man defenses with that Cover 2 team? Are all of his ratings boosted on teams that value him more? Does he cover better, have more speed, ect?

I never played HC if you can't tell.

# 239 mavfan21 @ 02/11/09 02:13 PM

MUCH NEEDED, great news!

Hate to say this...but it is the same balance that NFL2K5 had. Slower players were noticeably slower, you could tell the difference between a fast and slow player immediately.

# 240 swaldo @ 02/11/09 02:18 PM

I still like APF2K8 ratings better - so simple and makes it easy to scout your opponent or build a team to the style you want. Tuning gameplay would also be easier that way rather than constantly fiddling with tons of numerical ratings.

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