Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15 Player Ratings Explained

[BobbyColtrane]

Quote: Originally Posted by Da_Czar

Interesting but my question is what data would drive a players value per system when all players have not performed under each system. wouldn't that be mostly up for interpretation or is there existing data that shows a players effectiveness in a particular system? We don't necessarily know how a player will fare in a given stystem until we see him in it do we ? What are the definitive markers you would use to clearly define each system especially when some guys either have no discernable "system" or run a mixture of both. To me it just initially I think that would cause as many issues as it solves especially since it could be mostly user opinion that would drive it. So not saying it couldn't work just asking how would it work and if that would really be better ? Another thread maybe ? IDK LOL. ps apologies for typo's I am using a phone on a treadmill.

Czar off the treadmill and get back to work I want those playbooks TIZZIGHT!!!!!

[franzis]

Quote: Originally Posted by Da_Czar

Interesting but my question is what data would drive a players value per system when all players have not performed under each system. wouldn't that be mostly up for interpretation or is there existing data that shows a players effectiveness in a particular system? We don't necessarily know how a player will fare in a given stystem until we see him in it do we ? What are the definitive markers you would use to clearly define each system especially when some guys either have no discernable "system" or run a mixture of both. To me it just initially I think that would cause as many issues as it solves especially since it could be mostly user opinion that would drive it. So not saying it couldn't work just asking how would it work and if that would really be better ? Another thread maybe ? IDK LOL. ps apologies for typo's I am using a phone on a treadmill.

I will keep it simple and realistic:
- first of all, you have to simplify the notion of "team system" taking as example the Team DNA in NBA LIVE 09/10: a kind of breakdown of possessions by type of plays (P&R, ISO, 3pt, etc etc) based on actual NBA stats
- you have to describe the single player style as breakdown of FG% by type of plays (as above) based on actual NBA stats
- when Player X who has his best FG% in Play Y, is traded from Team W to Team Z, IF Team Z uses more (less) Play Y than Team W, THEN Player X receive a boost (penalty) to his offensive ratings (and thus to Overall)...same logic of the Floor General Sig Skill

Obviously it has some limits (too much emphasis on scoring, no attention to defence) that requires extra reasoning, but it seems pretty feasibile to me and I believe that something like that is already in the 2k code (when plays are automatic assigned to players according to their attributes)

[stillfeelme]

Quote: Originally Posted by franzis

I will keep it simple and realistic: - first of all, you have to simplify the notion of "team system" taking as example the Team DNA in NBA LIVE 09/10: a kind of breakdown of possessions by type of plays (P&R, ISO, 3pt, etc etc) based on actual NBA stats - you have to describe the single player style as breakdown of FG% by type of plays (as above) based on actual NBA stats - when Player X who has his best FG% in Play Y, is traded from Team W to Team Z, IF Team Z uses more (less) Play Y than Team W, THEN Player X receive a boost (penalty) to his offensive ratings (and thus to Overall)...same logic of the Floor General Sig Skill Obviously this system has some limits (too much emphasis on scoring, no attention to defence) that require extra reasoning, but it seems pretty feasibile to me and I believe that something like that is already in the 2k code (when plays are automatic assigned to players according to their attributes)

The system thing can be confusing but when I think system it is usually:

Triangle, Motion, Princeton offense, Pick and roll. How do you tell what player can do well in a triangle vs. another offense especially if a player has never played under that system? I think the problem lies with the team/coach/philosophy.

The offense/defense suffers if you place your players in situations that don't line up with their strengths. The player doesn't lose actual value at the position based off the scheme though. Think of this some players play a large portion of their college career in zone defense, does this mean they can't play man to man how?

[franzis]

Quote: Originally Posted by stillfeelme

The system thing can be confusing but when I think system it is usually: Triangle, Motion, Princeton offense, Pick and roll. How do you tell what player can do well in a triangle vs. another offense especially if a player has never played under that system? I think the problem lies with the team/coach/philosophy.

I agree with you but I don't think it's possible to implement that in the game in such terms (as Czar wondered).

That's why my first assumption was to simplify what we mean with "team system" in 2k perspective

[threattonature]

Quote: Originally Posted by Da_Czar

Interesting but my question is what data would drive a players value per system when all players have not performed under each system.

It is what teams do now when searching for free agents, just making blind guesses over who will fit into the style they play. My thought is more for myleague/myteam. Each team should have their own variables they look for to calculate the overall rating based on a system. Most coaches have a basic system in place rather it's more uptempo, pick and roll, 3 point shooting, inside/out. So the data that would drive their value in different systems are their existing ratings.

Quote: Originally Posted by Da_Czar

wouldn't that be mostly up for interpretation or is there existing data that shows a players effectiveness in a particular system? We don't necessarily know how a player will fare in a given stystem until we see him in it do we ?

What I'm suggesting is just using the existing attributes and the system would determine the overall. So a player with high speed, quickness, jumping, steals would rate higher in an uptempo system or be more valuable in that type of system compared to being in a Spurs or Memphis system where that athleticism would not matter near as much. Basically what I'm suggesting is a way to give different teams, a more distinct identity and style.

Quote: Originally Posted by Da_Czar

What are the definitive markers you would use to clearly define each system especially when some guys either have no discernable "system" or run a mixture of both.

Which teams do you think don't have an identifiable system? I think especially now with the SportVu tracking so much data that it's definitely possible to gather what type of style each team plays and what types of skillsets would fit in each one.

Quote: Originally Posted by Da_Czar

To me it just initially I think that would cause as many issues as it solves especially since it could be mostly user opinion that would drive it. So not saying it couldn't work just asking how would it work and if that would really be better ? Another thread maybe ? IDK LOL. ps apologies for typo's I am using a phone on a treadmill.

I do agree with how everything works it would be extremely complicated but eventually could tie any many different factors. The way I see it could possibly work long term is in myGM it could affect the type of coaches that each owner would hire. The coach based on the system he's running can determine which players they attempt to go after in free agency and on the flip side and play a factor in free agents determining what team they choose to sign with.

I think the one thing missing in association mode is teams having individual personalities or styles after a year or two because they're all going after the same players based off the same overalls.

[Da_Czar]

Quote: Originally Posted by threattonature

It is what teams do now when searching for free agents, just making blind guesses over who will fit into the style they play. My thought is more for myleague/myteam. Each team should have their own variables they look for to calculate the overall rating based on a system. Most coaches have a basic system in place rather it's more uptempo, pick and roll, 3 point shooting, inside/out. So the data that would drive their value in different systems are their existing ratings. What I'm suggesting is just using the existing attributes and the system would determine the overall. So a player with high speed, quickness, jumping, steals would rate higher in an uptempo system or be more valuable in that type of system compared to being in a Spurs or Memphis system where that athleticism would not matter near as much. Basically what I'm suggesting is a way to give different teams, a more distinct identity and style. Which teams do you think don't have an identifiable system? I think especially now with the SportVu tracking so much data that it's definitely possible to gather what type of style each team plays and what types of skillsets would fit in each one. I do agree with how everything works it would be extremely complicated but eventually could tie any many different factors. The way I see it could possibly work long term is in myGM it could affect the type of coaches that each owner would hire. The coach based on the system he's running can determine which players they attempt to go after in free agency and on the flip side and play a factor in free agents determining what team they choose to sign with. I think the one thing missing in association mode is teams having individual personalities or styles after a year or two because they're all going after the same players based off the same overalls.

Good stuff! Def something for us to discuss.

[Colts18]

Or the AI's gm could look for players with certain grades in specific attributes. Like a gm of the Celtics is looking for a PG with at least a B in athleticism. And this should be in the coach profile

[rgp913]

It sounds like they are just removing the filter of position in determining overall rating. Essentially- ratings will be calculated pretty much the same, but instead of a given player's position dictating which of the 5 potential overalls they receive (either pg,sg,sf,pf, or c overall) they tweaked it so a players overall is the highest of the 5 formulas. They simply eliminated a position penalty and put the onus on the ratings. I don't think it's as in depth and evolved as some of you are guessing.