OS Fact or Fiction: Basebal Games Cometh Edition

Feature Article

Submitted on: 02/19/2009 by

It is a new week here at Operation Sports and we are creeping up on the release of the two major baseball titles. This week we have four staff members checking into the fact or fiction roundtable and answering some important questions for this week. Is MVP 05 the best baseball game ever or will MLB 09: The Show surpass it this year? Is EA or Take Two going to be bought out in 2009's weak economy? Check out their thoughts on these issues and a few more in this week's fact or fiction.

Is MLB '09: The Show set to be the greatest baseball game ever?

MLB '09: The Show will be the best baseball game ever made.

Jack Hoeffel - Fact. MLB 08: The Show was the best baseball game last year, and the SCE San Diego team has only improved on past successes. With a much deeper franchise mode, tightened gameplay and a ridiculous amount detail, MLB 09: The Show looks to further separate itself from the crowd. Based on the early build available in the demo, it appears to be a must-buy for all baseball fans, or at least those with a Playstation 3.

Caley Roark - Fact. MLB 08 practically sold me on a PS3, and I was not disappointed. I loved the atmosphere, gameplay and franchise options; all of those look to be upgraded in some way this year. At this point, MLB's only competition is a modded MVP 05. Out of the box, MLB 09 should blow everything away.

Christian McLeod - Fiction. While MLB 09: The Show will be a fantastic baseball game, it will still pale in comparison to MVP 05. MVP 05 is still superior in the areas of ball physics, fielding, throwing and baserunning, at least based on my time with the MLB 09 demo. It is not that MLB 09 is bad by any means, it is just that MVP 05 set the bar incredibly high. Is MLB 09 going to be the best baseball game ever released on the current wave of consoles? Yes. Is it going to be the best ever? No.

Ray Delizo - Fact. The amount of detail available in MLB 09: The Show is staggering. The guys at SCE San Diego have done a wonderful job year in and year out with Sony's baseball franchise. The franchise mode is chock full of options to keep even the most avid baseball fan occupied, the gameplay is solid, and the atmosphere and commentary are top notch. Plus, Road To the Show has been a staple over the last several years, offering fans just another way to play the game.

Pepsi ads aside, MLB 2K9 looks to be much improved.

MLB 2K9 will definitely be a big improvement over last year.

Jack Hoeffel - Fact. From what I have seen from Steve's early gameplay videos, it appears that Visual Concepts has greatly improved on the disaster that was MLB 2K8. The real-time world, which was highly touted in the feature list, looks to be just as good as promised, and I believe it will take MLB 2K9's presentation to the next level. Finally, it appears that baseball fans may have two great baseball games to choose from.

Caley Roark - Fact. The videos make MLB 2K look pretty good, especially the "live" presentation and new commentators. Assuming the glitches that have plagued the series in the past are gone, the tweaks to the existing gameplay may raise the overall quality of this game.

Christian McLeod - Fact. MLB 2K8 was flat out unplayable for me last year. That game alone led me to purchase a PS3 just to play a solid baseball title in '08. Based on the gameplay videos I have seen on the Net, I would have to say I am pretty impressed. Gameplay as a whole looks to be vastly improved over 2K8 (e.g. steady frame rate), and the overall look of the game could lead to some serious playtime for those who love baseball and only own a 360. I would go as far as saying that I may pick up 2K9 to play with all my 360 buddies online, and then stick with MLB 09 for my dynasty and Road To the Show needs.

Ray Delizo - Fact. After the disastrous year Take Two and 2K Sports had with MLB 2K8, the franchise is looking like it could rebound and be a baseball game that is better in terms of overall quality. By simplifying the controls and concentrating on addressing areas where the game fell short last year, there is a chance that MLB 2K9 will be closer to what fans who only own a 360 want in a baseball game. That is not to say that MLB 09: The Show's hold as the best baseball game will be threatened any time soon, no. But I do see MLB 2K9 improving this year.

Would MVP be like the Rays or the Yankees of last year?

If EA Sports was still making MVP Baseball, it would be as good as MLB 09: The Show is today.

Jack Hoeffel - Fact. MVP Baseball 2005 was the best baseball game available for many years. It had great graphics for its time, incredibly solid gameplay and a deep stat system. If Take Two had not bought exclusive third-party rights to Major League Baseball, it is very possible that MVP Baseball 2009 would be as good if not better than MLB 09: The Show.

Caley Roark - Fiction. After watching how EA has handled Madden's transition to the current-generation consoles, I do not have too much confidence in what MVP would have become. I loved MVP 05 (and still play it occasionally), but I imagine that the features that made that game great would have been dropped and then touted as new features later on.

Christian McLeod - Fact. When the MLB license was sold to Take Two, MVP was on the brink of total gaming greatness. Not only did MVP nail bat-on-ball physics, and just about everything else about the game of baseball, but the developers were able to deliver the best dynasty mode ever. No other game to date has been able to duplicate the accurate player progression, trade A.I. and free agent A.I. that MVP 05 featured. There is something to be said when both games currently on the market generously imitate almost every feature that MVP introduced to the genre -- throwing meters, analog sliding, PIP baserunning, pitching meter, etc. To be perfectly honest, if MVP 05 was given the HD treatment like Street Fighter HD, I think it would sell a million-plus copies.

Ray Delizo - Fact. Despite being one of the unlucky few that has never played MVP 2005, I still have fond memories of firing up my old Xbox and playing MVP 2003 for hours on end. From what I have read and seen of MVP 2005, it was a phenomenal game. Could EA make a MLB game today that would rival or even surpass The Show? If EA still had the MLB license and the MVP series was still around, yes EA could.

Is it EA's turn to go through a possible buyout in 2009?

The economic situation will result in either an EA or TT buyout this year.

Jack Hoeffel - Fiction. Considering how many rumblings there have been in the past regarding a potential buyout of Take Two, I do not believe it will get to a point this year in which the company is forced to accept a buyout. In regards to EA, I believe the company is too obsessed with its own business right now to allow anyone to buy it out. Also, considering that EA is beginning to drop information regarding Madden NFL 10, it seems possible that EA has new ideas for the franchise and is planning to stay independent for a long time.

Caley Roark - Fact. It seems like every month the gaming landscape is changing as one company is bought out by another or collapses altogether. I do not think it is a stretch to say that one of these two companies will go this year. And while EA is powerful, I do not think it is strong enough to outlast the mix of a weakened economy and a more powerful company like Disney.

Christian McLeod - Fiction. I think both TT and EA will survive another year by cutting back on certain projects and focusing on quality titles. In the long run, this is going to help gamers because by cutting the fat, both companies will start to give us the quality, detail-oriented sports games that we have been asking for over the last four years.

Ray Delizo - Fiction. I do not see EA being in trouble any time soon. Madden NFL 10, as well as the new line of EA Sports titles, will keep gamers playing. After all, EA has been an industry stalwart for a reason. As far as Take Two is concerned, I honestly do not know what might happen. My gut feeling is that it will find a way to make it through the economic crisis.

Member Comments

# 41 rckabillyRaider @ 02/19/09 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomhauertjs


	The greatest baseball game ever? High Heat (either 2002 or 2003).

ouch!

# 42 btown12 @ 02/20/09 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rckabillyRaider


	ouch!

Hahahaha, the end of that video is hilarious

# 43 hukasmokincaterpillar @ 02/20/09 01:24 AM

I dunno, I think some of you guys are selling Show's ball physics and hit variety rather short. Maybe in '07 and years past, but the last few iterations have caught up IMO (if not surpassed). Its early to say but going by the '09 demo it seems they've made another considerable leap in this category. I've been consistently impressed with the hit variety, how it travels off the bat depending on swing and location, the foul balls, variation in trajectory and velocity et al. Granted I haven't fired up MPV in quite awhile, but from what I remember the bat to ball physics certainly had their own share of quirky rough edges (up on the stick anyone?).

# 44 edawgfoo @ 02/20/09 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rckabillyRaider


	ouch!

Those guys had no clue what made high heat popular. It was a pure baseball sim. The graphics were god awful even mlb 08 had less hit variety then high heat did all those years ago. Graphics mean nothing if the gameplay is not realistic to me. But then again, i'm a stat freak. I probably spend more time looking at stats then playing the game. And who played head to head online in 02?

# 45 JoeRyan33 @ 02/20/09 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ehh


	the hitting system in the demo still really frustrates me and seems the same from '08.

The hitting system is much better this year. I'm not seeing inside pitches being hit hard the other way, and vice versa, like last year.

# 46 The Bimmer @ 02/20/09 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theaub


	Console MVP '05 gameplay was perfect if you liked to never walk hitters or hit 3-4 HR per game.

You nailed it aub. Its the perfect arcade game, this is why it got old quick for me. The SHOW will be the near-perfect SIM to date this year. When i pop the game in i expect to play a 9 inning game over a 2 hour period, work the counts, hit-n-run, go the other way with the pitch, sacrifice, look for pitches in certain zones, etc.... This will not be accomplished if i mash the x button every pitch. Imo i believe the SHOW has surpassed all baseball games in the sim department, however in the minds of the people buying the game its hard to say. We live in a world of instant coffee, instant tea and instant success so its all about the attitude one has when they purchase the game. The devs at SECA know baseball and hopefully we all will learn how to play and watch baseball better in the future, because lets face it the SECA teams goal is total SIMULATION.

MLB09 The show will be the best game to date: FACT

# 47 nemesis04 @ 02/20/09 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dickdalewood


	The one thing I think MVP did so well, and better than any game to date, is the way it felt to hit a baseball. It's tough to explain, but man, the second I hit a homerun in that game I swear I could just feel it. The way it sounded, the way it looked, I think the controller rumbled a little too... It was so awesome. It was the same with a rocket shot for a double, or a soft grounder, anything, I could just tell I barely connected, or made solid contact. I don't know if that makes any sense, but I definitely miss the way that felt... Jackin' the ball out of Wrigley with Sosa was just fantastic.

There was a visual connection to what you were actually doing when you swung. The system had good feedback in that regard. I did not like the whole up for a fly ball, down for a grounder nonsense but the other stuff was good.

The other hitting systems which currently have improved seem to still have a little bit of a disconnect to the overall hitting process. You are doing it but the visual feedback you get is not necessarily representative of what you actually did with the controller.

# 48 sgthalka @ 02/20/09 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bimmer


	The devs at SECA know baseball and hopefully we all will learn how to play and watch baseball better in the future, because lets face it the SECA teams goal is total SIMULATION.

The sad thing is, how many people try The Show and give up because "the hitting is too hard"? Or complain about the lack of Home Run Derby and trade it in?

The hitting isn't "too hard," it's just realistic to the actual game of baseball. But we have an entire generation of gamers who expect baseball games to be all about home runs and strikeouts.

I'm a pretty huge baseball nut, and even I started out as a HR/K type of player. I've learned more about the actual game -- small ball, working the count, manufacturing runs, working hitters, using your bullpen effectively -- from The Show than any series I've ever played in the past.

# 49 ehh @ 02/20/09 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hukasmokincaterpillar


	I dunno, I think some of you guys are selling Show's ball physics and hit variety rather short. Maybe in '07 and years past, but the last few iterations have caught up IMO (if not surpassed). Its early to say but going by the '09 demo it seems they've made another considerable leap in this category.

I've learned that if you don't use the L-Stick in The Show you really miss out on the hit variety and ball physics. The swing analyzer in '09 is going to help people understand this alot better. I was a time-only guy for a long time and I pretty much hit weak grounders, line drives that were either base hits or caught by the OF's and the Action Cam homers (that were mostly line drive HR). Sure, they'd go to all fields and down the line, etc but I'd never see pop-ups, bloopers or towering HR's.

Once I started using the L-stick all that changed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dickdalewood


	The one thing I think MVP did so well, and better than any game to date, is the way it felt to hit a baseball. It's tough to explain, but man, the second I hit a homerun in that game I swear I could just feel it. The way it sounded, the way it looked, I think the controller rumbled a little too... It was so awesome. It was the same with a rocket shot for a double, or a soft grounder, anything, I could just tell I barely connected, or made solid contact. I don't know if that makes any sense, but I definitely miss the way that felt... Jackin' the ball out of Wrigley with Sosa was just fantastic.

You hit the nail on the head, though I think 2K4's cursor system did this just as well. There is no mistaking that MVP's hitting system was arcade, but the feel of it was phenominal. I've mentioned this the last few years, both The Show and 2K are lacking in this department. Even playing the '09 demo I don't get that great feel, it's like, "Well, I made contact - now let's see where the ball goes." I mean, it's not bad by any means, it's just not great.

# 50 slickdtc @ 02/20/09 11:46 AM

I still play MVP 05 to this day and it's tiding me over until I MLB 09 The Show releases. I agree it's not the pure simulation that MLB 09/08 is. But that's what happens in 4 years. When MVP came out, it was realistic.

# 51 Bumble14 @ 02/20/09 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgthalka


	The sad thing is, how many people try The Show and give up because "the hitting is too hard"? Or complain about the lack of Home Run Derby and trade it in? The hitting isn't "too hard," it's just realistic to the actual game of baseball. But we have an entire generation of gamers who expect baseball games to be all about home runs and strikeouts. I'm a pretty huge baseball nut, and even I started out as a HR/K type of player. I've learned more about the actual game -- small ball, working the count, manufacturing runs, working hitters, using your bullpen effectively -- from The Show than any series I've ever played in the past.

Hey guys- Christian McLeod here from the article (just thought I'd throw that out there for the guy who asked for forum names).

Anyhow, I had to weigh in on this discussion after reading the quoted post. As someone who is a diehard baseball gamer since RBI on NES, played high level baseball, and is an absolute slappy when it comes to the game, I have to disagree that the hitting system in The Show is realistic.

To me, I feel a great disconnect with my bat on ball contact in The Show. The physics are pretty good, but there is something missing. Someone nailed it when they mentioned that there was some type of connection you got when hitting in MVP. It's so hard to explain for someone who didn't play the game religiously like many of us did, but there was no greater hitting system in any baseball game to date.

In MVP, you really felt like the contact being made on the ball was due to your adjustments in the box/arm extension/avoiding getting jammed, etc. There was also something to be said about the color changing ball pitch dynamic that no one ever seems to remember, that made reading a pitch, and going with it in that game one of the greatest feelings ever.

For those of you who played baseball in real life, you know you are taught to be relaxed in the box, adjust to the pitch thrown to you, and to adjust your mecahnics to take the ball where it is thrown. Too often in The Show and the newer 2K games do I feel like I make a simple button press that based on timing, results in contact in the zone. I do not get that feeling of complete control using the left stick as I got in MVP.

Sure, MVP 05 had it's quirks that people want to hit on to justify that it is not the greatest baseball game ever, but they always fail to mention the same level of quirks in games like The Show. I'm not saying The Show is a bad game by any means, it is just that it still has not filled the void left by MVP 05 in terms of a complete baseball experience.

# 52 Bumble14 @ 02/20/09 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTheorenHobbes


	I think MVP was vastly overrated. It didn't even have signature styles, for crying out loud. Any baseball game without signature styles keeps my attention for 20 minutes or so, tops.

Really? So you clearly aren't a hardcore baseball gamer that grew up with RBI, Bases Loaded, etc.

If the game plays great who cares about sig styles. Some of the greatest games in baseball gaming history did not include sig styles.

# 53 rudyjuly2 @ 02/20/09 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bumble14


	To me, I feel a great disconnect with my bat on ball contact in The Show. The physics are pretty good, but there is something missing. Someone nailed it when they mentioned that there was some type of connection you got when hitting in MVP. It's so hard to explain for someone who didn't play the game religiously like many of us did, but there was no greater hitting system in any baseball game to date. In MVP, you really felt like the contact being made on the ball was due to your adjustments in the box/arm extension/avoiding getting jammed, etc. There was also something to be said about the color changing ball pitch dynamic that no one ever seems to remember, that made reading a pitch, and going with it in that game one of the greatest feelings ever.

It's been so long since I've played MVP that I can't even remember the feel of the ball on the bat. I will concede that the feel of hitting the ball in the Show isn't perfect. It does feel a bit strange in the demo since the bat speed is so different from '08.

I also really liked the hitter's eye in MVP. It did help read pitches a lot easier and I think it would be a really cool option to add next year for the Show.

But MVP's restrictive hitting system where you had to go with every pitch on the outer half of the plate wasn't realistic. You CAN pull outside pitches in baseball WITH power. Plus you couldn't hit any pitch outside the strike zone. Those were the things that the Show did very well.

I clearly remember walking into Future Shop and I played a kiosk version of the Show '06 on the PS2. After playing for two minutes I just fell in love with the game. It just felt like baseball. Clearly you had that feeling with MVP but the overly restrictive hitting system and too easy pitching system didn't feel right to me.

# 54 Aaron Rodgers @ 02/20/09 04:05 PM

MVP people make me doubt them as Baseball enthusiast. High Heat is the GREATEST or at least needs mentions from the staff. For Shame.

# 55 ehh @ 02/20/09 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rudyjuly2


	But MVP's restrictive hitting system where you had to go with every pitch on the outer half of the plate wasn't realistic. You CAN pull outside pitches in baseball WITH power. Plus you couldn't hit any pitch outside the strike zone. Those were the things that the Show did very well.

The first part of your post is a big misnomer, after playing the game for four years I finally figured out how to pull outside pitches for home runs. It doesn't happen a ton as I've programmed myself to go with every pitch but it's certainly possible. I've hit some moonshots on low and away sliders that I pulled.

The second part is dead on though and by far the biggest problem with hitting in MVP, if it's more than an inch outside of the strike zone you can't hit it.

# 56 Aaron Rodgers @ 02/20/09 04:34 PM

Griffey on N64 was arcade but liked the balance particularly with 2-Player. It's already been said how the 98mph stuff for the CPU is no prob but for humans is a big concern. Not to mention how 2 Seamers moved.

And was it just me or did the corner IFers barely move when trying to catch a pop foul?

# 57 Knight165 @ 02/20/09 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bumble14


	Really? So you clearly aren't a hardcore baseball gamer that grew up with RBI, Bases Loaded, etc. If the game plays great who cares about sig styles. Some of the greatest games in baseball gaming history did not include sig styles.

Whoa....
That's not right.
I don't feel that way and there is NO WAY that anyone has been more "hardcore" than I when it comes to baseball.

Just because you feel that way doesn't make it so. Sorry.
I'm REALLY tired of people doing this....it's getting old.

M.K.
Knight165

# 58 artdog5110 @ 02/21/09 10:29 AM

I am probably in the minority but I had an incredibly hard time hiitting on MVP. Loved it graphicly and the pitching windups were great but not being able to hit ruined it for me. Not blaming the game but I could not hit. Love The Show but pound for pound pure baseball sim High Heat was the best. But The Show may catch it this year.

# 59 mmorg @ 02/21/09 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomhauertjs


	The greatest baseball game ever? High Heat (either 2002 or 2003).

I can't quote this enough. HH2003 to this day is still my favorite baseball game of all time and I have probably logged more than 1000 games played in that game. Microsoft bought the source code to it when 3DO went bankrupt and I really wish they would do something with it.

# 60 nemesis04 @ 02/21/09 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmorg


	I can't quote this enough. HH2003 to this day is still my favorite baseball game of all time and I have probably logged more than 1000 games played in that game. Microsoft bought the source code to it when 3DO went bankrupt and I really wish they would do something with it.

They are, its in a box holding up a desk somewhere.

I was surprised they never did anything with it.

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