OS Roundtable: Is Madden's Focus Where it Should Be?

Feature Article

Submitted on: 06/10/2014 by

With Madden being a more defensively focused game this year, it appears the developers are trying to fix one big part of what has made the game feel stale to many the past few years on the field. Will the additions on the defensive half of the ball lead to more fun or will Madden still feel stale in your non-hands on opinions?

Matthew Coe: No. All of the announced additions on defense have fallen flat for me. Part of that is the reality that in past Madden games, marketed features didn't work properly. Another part of that is that so many current features don't function properly (penalties, anyone?). In no way do I think that adding a defensive camera is a game changer. We had player lock in the NCAA Football series and the view here seems to be similar. The new disengage moves for defensive linemen seem likely to be overpowered out of the box and exploitable online. And while this may seem like a petty complaint, I'm worried that the moves will be too "gamey" and might result in individual player ratings mattering less in the trenches. The tackling cone amuses me to be honest, and seems to be a feature designed with new players in mind, which is fine, I'm just glad that I can turn the visual cone off. Finally, we don't really have any details about the new coverage improvements or specifics about Real AI 2.0. I'm a bit encouraged that they brought in real NFL players and coaches to help with these two features, but I wonder if any of that will translate to Madden's defensive gameplay.

Count me as a skeptic until we see real 11-on-11 gameplay of Madden NFL 15 in a single player vs CPU environment.

Jayson Young: No. The new defensive mechanics that were announced today may help the one defender who's being user-controlled, but what about the 10 other defenders on the field?

Will those computer-controlled defenders still give up huge gains by taking illogical pursuit angles? Will they continue to sit in their tiny zone circles, even when no offensive threats are near the area they are "covering"?

Will man coverage still be beaten by basic curl and out routes, regardless of the wide receiver/defensive back matchup? Will the secondary regularly outjump receivers and catch contested passes through traffic, creating an unrealistic amount of interceptions?

Will play-action passes still fool the entire AI defense, even on obvious throwing downs? Can you still have success running the same two to three money plays all game long, without the CPU defense making any adjustments?

Given the track record of developer EA Tiburon, it is hard to have any optimism that Madden NFL 15 will capture the strategy, atmosphere and emotions of pro football any better than past unimpressive editions -- a losing streak that started with the super-disappointing Madden NFL 11, and has continued, uninterrupted, all the way up to last August's mediocre Madden NFL 25.

Dustin Toms: No. To be honest, I'm not impressed at all. Like both Jayson and Matt have just said: back-of-the-box features from Tiburon mean nothing to gamers anymore. We're ready for more of the same from that standpoint. If all of the announced features are legit, then yeah you can count me as an excited kind of guy. But...

...That trailer looked awful. Sure the graphics are vastly improved, but it looks like it's still being built off of the same game from last year. Watch the player movements and you'll see they still have the stiff robot look and feel to them. When Richard Sherman is doing his typical "crowd-pumping" move, his arms look like it's nothing but a motion - not lifelike at all. Last year was fine to build off of 360/PS3 build, but we're in the new generation now. Make us a whole new ball game.

Chris Sanner: Someone has to be the voice of dissension and I guess that is going to be me. Madden has been a boring experience on the defensive side of the ball for years now, so anything done to give gamers more of a choice and more control when trying to rush the QB are good things. That plus the toning down of QB accuracy and the improvements to DB/WR interactions all sound like they will add to the experience.

Listen folks, Madden is what Madden is. The game will not radically change from year to year just like every other sports game in our genre, this has very little to do with competition and more to do with the simple fact a one year development cycle is going to lead to incremental improvements year after year. At this point, you either like the brand of football EA is putting out there or you don't -- but you can't expect Madden to be something it simply isn't. At this point, I'm convinced that Madden will never satisfy a portion of football fans no matter what it does, but for the rest of us the improvements on the defensive side of the ball are much needed and could make defense a little more fun this year.

Madden NFL 15 Videos

Member Comments

# 41 roadman @ 06/22/14 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpdavis82


	In this article Ian talks about the illusion of cutting left and right to hit the hole. While he did have some good ideas and wanted sim aspects, I don't think he had the same focus and desire to deliver sim that Cam and Rex do. I don't plan on hearing them talk about giving an illusion of anything when it comes to sim football. http://www.operationsports.com/featu...ngs-interview/

JP, I was in communication with Ian and all he wanted to do was make a simulation football game. There were other factors outside of Ian that prevented that.

When Ian took over, it was blame Ortiz. ( I was a part of that crowd, now, I'm older and wiser)

It's just a vicious, wash, rinse, repeat cycle.

I don't need to hear that 16 or 17 will be NFL sim football games, I need to see it without anyone else's bold crystal ball predictions.(not a slight at you, I was once enthusiastic too)

Although, I will say, just a gut, I have a slightly favorable impression, but I need to see more grand scale improvements.

# 42 dat boi Q @ 06/22/14 11:53 PM

We are not asking EA for much. Just clean up the core of the game. Animations,penalties,interactions,sliders that work,ratings that reflect gameplay.

Stop bringing in new features that make legacy issues stand out more.
Madden 15 is all about defense, but what stands out to someone who has been playing madden are the terrible tackle animations and lack of two and three man tackles.

If madden 15 just fixed the the things I stated above we could tweak the game to how we want it. That's our best bet to get a sim game from EA. Just fix the core stuff, give us sliders to everything and move out the way. This game can't go fully sim without EA making the tourney and online crowd mad. So it they have to choose between them and us I know who they are going to choose. We go through this same dance and pony show every year and now it's just comical to me. Some like me have already came to the conclusion that madden just isn't made for our crowd.

# 43 burter @ 06/23/14 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big FN Deal


	I just quoted this because it was the closet but my general point is about this notion that Madden is somehow NOW officially, almost, on its' way, to being a football simulation. All the other stuff aside that has been talked about ad nauseam for years, let's just look at the actual game itself. This notion about we're headed in a sim direction has gotten ridiculous, imo and I've been guilty of it myself. Regardless of the good intentions, passion, talent or whatever of anyone working on the game, it can't arrive as a football sim until it has. I don't care what anyone says about the game, the actual product will speak for itself EVERY time. Please spare me the spiel about "no video game is perfect", "Rome wasn't built in a day", yada, yada, yada, because there is a difference between a sim video game with unrealistic/arcade flaws versus a video game with intentionally designed unrealistic elements and it's very clear which group Madden STILL falls in.

I think the Pyramids where built faster, lol.

Anyways wasn't Ian on the team for madden 10? If so that was the best Madden I played. Foot planting finally that made the game feel a lot better and more realistic. Than for whatever reason it got switch back to Ice Skating R US. Like really I just chuckle every time someone brings up sim and Madden because they still got Nancy Kerrigan ice capades as their foot planting.......

# 44 jpdavis82 @ 06/23/14 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burter


	I think the Pyramids where built faster, lol. Anyways wasn't Ian on the team for madden 10? If so that was the best Madden I played. Foot planting finally that made the game feel a lot better and more realistic. Than for whatever reason it got switch back to Ice Skating R US. Like really I just chuckle every time someone brings up sim and Madden because they still got Nancy Kerrigan ice capades as their foot planting.......

They do need to implement true step for the CPU and all 22 players, but I think they are focusing on the brains of the game(football fundamentals) for now and will finish working on signature animations and player movement next. The players have to think and respond like football players before anything else IMO. I think that's the direction they have chosen and I'm ok with that, IF that's their plan.

True Step does extend beyond the ball carrier with 15 and player movement is better overall. I didn't really notice it on my phone, but when I saw M15 on my 46" tv I could tell the animations are smoother and foot planting is there for user controlled players. The player models look SO much more accurate now too, which is another thing I couldn't really tell from seeing it on my phone.

Corey Andress said something similar about animations and player movement in his impressions article.

"The animations themselves have taken huge strides as well. Players move more realistically and tackles look much better than before. Going into instant replay now is a lot of fun just to watch the different tackles and contact take place. It might not be noticeable to the casual player, but for me there was a huge step taken in making what was happening on the field look much more realistic."

# 45 strawberryshortcake @ 06/23/14 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpdavis82


	They do need to implement true step for the CPU and all 22 players, but I think they are focusing on the brains of the game(football fundamentals) for now and will finish working on signature animations and player movement next. The players have to think and respond like football players before anything else IMO. I think that's the direction they have chosen and I'm ok with that, IF that's their plan. True Step does extend beyond the ball carrier with 15 and player movement is better overall. I didn't really notice it on my phone, but when I saw M15 on my 46" tv I could tell the animations are smoother and foot planting is there for user controlled players. The player models look SO much more accurate now too, which is another thing I couldn't really tell from seeing it on my phone. Corey Andress said something similar about animations and player movement in his impressions article. "The animations themselves have taken huge strides as well. Players move more realistically and tackles look much better than before. Going into instant replay now is a lot of fun just to watch the different tackles and contact take place. It might not be noticeable to the casual player, but for me there was a huge step taken in making what was happening on the field look much more realistic."

Football fundamentals is absolutely important. But putting football fundamentals ahead of true steps is completely backwards thinking.

The way someone moves from point A to point B is solely dependent on footwork, foot placement. If it works theoretically as advertised (and that is a big if), true step should completely eliminate awkward sliding, and any suction movements.

Have you given any consideration that implementing "true step" after football fundamentals have been tuned to perfection could indeed "break" the established game play? The programmed AI offensive, defensive, formations and executions could all come crashing down because the "football fundamentals" were established when 22 (plus or minus) on the field still has the ability to slip and slide?

(A) Without True Step: The ability of the OL was able to pick up the block because he was able to slip and slide into position.
(B) With True Step implementation: the OL wasn't able to pick up the block because "true step" worked and he was out of position.

....Backwards, because what this means is the entire team needs to go back and rework the AI if implementing 'true step' "breaks" the slip and slide gameplay. Tune football fundamentals based on all 22 players initially still having slip and slide characteristics. And what is that going to do? Another 3 year plan just to correct the mistakes that could have been avoided had the proper approach been employed. How old do all the Grandpas have to be to get a realistic football game?

# 46 BezO @ 06/23/14 10:55 AM

^^^^^^^^
Why I don't feel Madden will be good any time soon. How do you implement AI without addressing the animations and locomotion?

I don't know if you can fix the locomotion separate from the AI as I think they would need to be done at the same time. I know Ian was working on the footwork and one of the problems he mentioned was getting the defenders to use it properly... not over running plays & such.

When I was there last, Ian had a beautify demo of ball carrier footwork for me to play with. I haven't seen ANYTHING like this implemented yet, and it's been 4-5 years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpdavis82


	Lets go back to where the old team was on their second title of a new console and compare it with the second next gen title in alpha version of the team today. http://youtu.be/9Xq3n8bz6N4 Vs http://youtu.be/9D2GK_z3Az0 Which looks more like sim football to you? Look past the graphics and look at the football fundamentals, player movement, ai, etc...

For what I'm looking for, there is little difference. But before I get into detail, I'm curious about what you think has improved so much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpdavis82


	In this article Ian talks about the illusion of cutting left and right to hit the hole. While he did have some good ideas and wanted sim aspects, I don't think he had the same focus and desire to deliver sim that Cam and Rex do. I don't plan on hearing them talk about giving an illusion of anything when it comes to sim football. http://www.operationsports.com/featu...ngs-interview/

Same goal, different language.

When we hear from the guys that do the hardcore coding for the game, I'll listen.

# 47 dkp23 @ 06/23/14 01:13 PM

I'm no game developer or anything, but to me, what is the good of improving animations when most of the animations when players interact are canned?

People complain about foot planting and sliding, but even 2k football had sliding feet, but the animations were not triggered and canned. That is why gang tackling worked because anybody on the field can impact the play.

That is what EA needs to focus on, getting the game play to the point where the interactions from the players on the field are organic and realistic.

To me, EA is not focused on teh right things, did they really need to change the play call screen? Adding indictators on top of the player, defensive cone. In the past, communities, gameflow, surprise onside kick, strat pad, etc etc etc etc etc etc.

No, they really didnt, those werent really necessary and where are they now? The focus needs to be strictly on the gameplay and the engine where they are eliminating canned animations, realistic reactions to the play and ball, and less arcadey movements from the players (zig zag).

Instead, they want to focus on fake features to sell a subpar product, imagine all that wasted time on building features that weren't really necessary and were invested in actually fixing the game play.

To me, presentation, teh crowd, the details on the helmet or whatever means nothing if your gameplay is horrible. When we play the games, all the extra perks gets overlooked by the frustration of the gameplay so whatever halftime show EA wants to implement, wont matter if the game plays like crap. Get the gameplay right first and then everything else builds upon a good game.

At this point, i think the game has been developed too long to even allow the game to change. I dont see many of the issues we have today going away soon.

# 48 BezO @ 06/23/14 01:42 PM

dkp,

I agree with you accept that I don't think 2K's animations were any less canned. They were just programmed better and triggered in the proper context and interruptable. But they didn't have a physics engine or anything like that. Just some very good programming.

I can't call it for EA. Their programming is just very static. To give an example that I'm more familiar with, I suggested retiering the defensive playbooks to allow for separate blitz/stunt and coverage/shell calls. I was told they would have to completely redo the blocking AI. In other words, the blocking was/is tied to the defensive call. This was back in 2009, but I don't believe it's changed.

This is the type of thing I'm talking about when I say Madden hasn't changed much. Some folks look at few new animations and some stated AI improvements and see change. I look at the core gameplay and see the same things I've seen the entire last gen.

The fact that the defensive assignments & blocking assignments are connected in such a way is a major problem. So something that we would think would be of moderate difficulty to change is extremely difficult for EA because of the base coding.

I believe this is the issue with tackling. For another game to have a better version 2 generations ago is alarming. Gang tackling & proper context obviously can be done. But something about EA's coding makes it a huge issue for THEM. I don't think this is something that producers can fix... the guys whose names we know, the idea guys. IMO, this is a deeper coding issue, handled by programmers whose names we don't know.

# 49 Only1LT @ 06/23/14 02:17 PM

Tiburon has it's Madden development focus exactly where it needs to be. It's on gameplay. The issue that I have is that I don't think they've done enough in that department and what they have done wasn't implemented very well.

The focus is far from the problem. Just too little ROI for that focus.

# 50 jyoung @ 06/23/14 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BezO


	I agree with you accept that I don't think 2K's animations were any less canned. They were just programmed better and triggered in the proper context and interruptable. But they didn't have a physics engine or anything like that. Just some very good programming.

There are definitely physics in a game like All-Pro Football 2K8, it's just that they're not procedurally generated like they are in Backbreaker or in Madden.

Physics are what allow larger running backs like Christian Okoye to fall forward while being tackled, whereas a smaller runner like Dave Meggett gets stopped in his tracks or pushed backwards.

Physics also allow a huge nose tackle like William Perry to push the center back into the quarterback's face, before he even attempts a pass rush "special move" animation. Conversely, a smaller tackle like Mike Golic will get pushed off the line of scrimmage by a skilled center like Dermontti Dawson, without the need for a silly, decleating "pancake" animation.

Every tackle and blocking collision in the game is judging the weight, direction and momentum of the colliding players to determine the type of animation that plays out (pushed back, pushed forward, neutral held up).

# 51 BezO @ 06/23/14 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jyoung


	There are definitely physics in a game like All-Pro Football 2K8, it's just that they're not procedurally generated like they are in Backbreaker or in Madden. Physics are what allow larger running backs like Christian Okoye to fall forward while being tackled, whereas a smaller runner like Dave Meggett gets stopped in his tracks or pushed backwards. Physics also allow a huge nose tackle like William Perry to push the center back into the quarterback's face, before he even attempts a pass rush "special move" animation. Conversely, a smaller tackle like Mike Golic will get pushed off the line of scrimmage by a skilled center like Dermontti Dawson, without the need for a silly, decleating "pancake" animation. Every tackle and blocking collision in the game is judging the weight, direction and momentum of the colliding players to determine the type of animation that plays out (pushed back, pushed forward, neutral held up).

I think we're saying the same thing.

When folks say physics, I'm thinking real time physics, like Backbreaker. We agree that's not in 2K.

I simply think 2K did a better job programming the context of their tackle animations, considering angles, mementun & ratings. And they're also breakable animations, allowing for reactions to additional defenders coming in. If you're calling that physics, cool.

# 52 hanzsomehanz @ 06/23/14 04:43 PM

Where focus goes: energy follows and where energy flows: work is surely going on there.

I can drive the streets yet not focus on the streets.

I perceive that their focus is always drifting: north, south, east, west and never arriving at the said destination on the much too promised land of Madden euphoria..

Spoiler

In my perspective: the focus is feigned, like an attention deficit disorder recognized in an individual: the company heads do not stay on task long enough to have grasped and mastered the concepts in full that they intend to design and implement..

Spoiler

EA, the Senate, has to decide the State of their empire and not us.

If EA is going to cater to the 8-13 YO gamer and allow that gamer's deficiencies and skill to dictate their designs: then I see no hope of the game maturing in the simulation sense of matching the NFL designs.

EA Tiburon, like a Mayor of new City developments, should first design the streets, design the laws of the streets, and then certify the vehichles and drivers for the streets.

Spoiler

Once a gamer plays on the standard difficulty for Online Play: they should be challenged to play in respect to a professional manner and this impetus shall be set in accordance by circumstances and by AI.

Is EA Tiburon merely going about the motions of designing a simulation NFL product - mearly pointing, hinting at the essense but never touching on the true things and hitting the mark?

In response to the above: I believe, from experience, that they are merely pointing to the stars and moon and have no plans to actually deliver and hit the mark on those aims.

On the ground level, and face of things, the game remains to look like Football but in motion and under the hood it is a mockery and merely a hint to the essense of the NFL and should be further ahead in processing football mechanics and AI.

Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk

# 53 Branchurian @ 06/26/14 08:14 PM

Handsomehanz! GONE NOW, PREACH!

# 54 Toupal @ 07/08/14 09:48 PM

CUSTOM DRAFT CLASSES

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