OS Roundtable: Is Madden's Focus Where it Should Be?

[burter]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

I just quoted this because it was the closet but my general point is about this notion that Madden is somehow NOW officially, almost, on its' way, to being a football simulation. All the other stuff aside that has been talked about ad nauseam for years, let's just look at the actual game itself. This notion about we're headed in a sim direction has gotten ridiculous, imo and I've been guilty of it myself. Regardless of the good intentions, passion, talent or whatever of anyone working on the game, it can't arrive as a football sim until it has. I don't care what anyone says about the game, the actual product will speak for itself EVERY time. Please spare me the spiel about "no video game is perfect", "Rome wasn't built in a day", yada, yada, yada, because there is a difference between a sim video game with unrealistic/arcade flaws versus a video game with intentionally designed unrealistic elements and it's very clear which group Madden STILL falls in.

I think the Pyramids where built faster, lol.

Anyways wasn't Ian on the team for madden 10? If so that was the best Madden I played. Foot planting finally that made the game feel a lot better and more realistic. Than for whatever reason it got switch back to Ice Skating R US. Like really I just chuckle every time someone brings up sim and Madden because they still got Nancy Kerrigan ice capades as their foot planting.......

[jpdavis82]

Quote: Originally Posted by burter

I think the Pyramids where built faster, lol. Anyways wasn't Ian on the team for madden 10? If so that was the best Madden I played. Foot planting finally that made the game feel a lot better and more realistic. Than for whatever reason it got switch back to Ice Skating R US. Like really I just chuckle every time someone brings up sim and Madden because they still got Nancy Kerrigan ice capades as their foot planting.......

They do need to implement true step for the CPU and all 22 players, but I think they are focusing on the brains of the game(football fundamentals) for now and will finish working on signature animations and player movement next. The players have to think and respond like football players before anything else IMO. I think that's the direction they have chosen and I'm ok with that, IF that's their plan.

True Step does extend beyond the ball carrier with 15 and player movement is better overall. I didn't really notice it on my phone, but when I saw M15 on my 46" tv I could tell the animations are smoother and foot planting is there for user controlled players. The player models look SO much more accurate now too, which is another thing I couldn't really tell from seeing it on my phone.

Corey Andress said something similar about animations and player movement in his impressions article.

"The animations themselves have taken huge strides as well. Players move more realistically and tackles look much better than before. Going into instant replay now is a lot of fun just to watch the different tackles and contact take place. It might not be noticeable to the casual player, but for me there was a huge step taken in making what was happening on the field look much more realistic."

[strawberryshortcake]

Quote: Originally Posted by jpdavis82

They do need to implement true step for the CPU and all 22 players, but I think they are focusing on the brains of the game(football fundamentals) for now and will finish working on signature animations and player movement next. The players have to think and respond like football players before anything else IMO. I think that's the direction they have chosen and I'm ok with that, IF that's their plan. True Step does extend beyond the ball carrier with 15 and player movement is better overall. I didn't really notice it on my phone, but when I saw M15 on my 46" tv I could tell the animations are smoother and foot planting is there for user controlled players. The player models look SO much more accurate now too, which is another thing I couldn't really tell from seeing it on my phone. Corey Andress said something similar about animations and player movement in his impressions article. "The animations themselves have taken huge strides as well. Players move more realistically and tackles look much better than before. Going into instant replay now is a lot of fun just to watch the different tackles and contact take place. It might not be noticeable to the casual player, but for me there was a huge step taken in making what was happening on the field look much more realistic."

Football fundamentals is absolutely important. But putting football fundamentals ahead of true steps is completely backwards thinking.

The way someone moves from point A to point B is solely dependent on footwork, foot placement. If it works theoretically as advertised (and that is a big if), true step should completely eliminate awkward sliding, and any suction movements.

Have you given any consideration that implementing "true step" after football fundamentals have been tuned to perfection could indeed "break" the established game play? The programmed AI offensive, defensive, formations and executions could all come crashing down because the "football fundamentals" were established when 22 (plus or minus) on the field still has the ability to slip and slide?

(A) Without True Step: The ability of the OL was able to pick up the block because he was able to slip and slide into position.
(B) With True Step implementation: the OL wasn't able to pick up the block because "true step" worked and he was out of position.

....Backwards, because what this means is the entire team needs to go back and rework the AI if implementing 'true step' "breaks" the slip and slide gameplay. Tune football fundamentals based on all 22 players initially still having slip and slide characteristics. And what is that going to do? Another 3 year plan just to correct the mistakes that could have been avoided had the proper approach been employed. How old do all the Grandpas have to be to get a realistic football game?

[BezO]

^^^^^^^^
Why I don't feel Madden will be good any time soon. How do you implement AI without addressing the animations and locomotion?

I don't know if you can fix the locomotion separate from the AI as I think they would need to be done at the same time. I know Ian was working on the footwork and one of the problems he mentioned was getting the defenders to use it properly... not over running plays & such.

When I was there last, Ian had a beautify demo of ball carrier footwork for me to play with. I haven't seen ANYTHING like this implemented yet, and it's been 4-5 years.

Quote: Originally Posted by jpdavis82

Lets go back to where the old team was on their second title of a new console and compare it with the second next gen title in alpha version of the team today. http://youtu.be/9Xq3n8bz6N4 Vs http://youtu.be/9D2GK_z3Az0 Which looks more like sim football to you? Look past the graphics and look at the football fundamentals, player movement, ai, etc...

For what I'm looking for, there is little difference. But before I get into detail, I'm curious about what you think has improved so much.

Quote: Originally Posted by jpdavis82

In this article Ian talks about the illusion of cutting left and right to hit the hole. While he did have some good ideas and wanted sim aspects, I don't think he had the same focus and desire to deliver sim that Cam and Rex do. I don't plan on hearing them talk about giving an illusion of anything when it comes to sim football. http://www.operationsports.com/featu...ngs-interview/

Same goal, different language.

When we hear from the guys that do the hardcore coding for the game, I'll listen.

[dkp23]

I'm no game developer or anything, but to me, what is the good of improving animations when most of the animations when players interact are canned?

People complain about foot planting and sliding, but even 2k football had sliding feet, but the animations were not triggered and canned. That is why gang tackling worked because anybody on the field can impact the play.

That is what EA needs to focus on, getting the game play to the point where the interactions from the players on the field are organic and realistic.

To me, EA is not focused on teh right things, did they really need to change the play call screen? Adding indictators on top of the player, defensive cone. In the past, communities, gameflow, surprise onside kick, strat pad, etc etc etc etc etc etc.

No, they really didnt, those werent really necessary and where are they now? The focus needs to be strictly on the gameplay and the engine where they are eliminating canned animations, realistic reactions to the play and ball, and less arcadey movements from the players (zig zag).

Instead, they want to focus on fake features to sell a subpar product, imagine all that wasted time on building features that weren't really necessary and were invested in actually fixing the game play.

To me, presentation, teh crowd, the details on the helmet or whatever means nothing if your gameplay is horrible. When we play the games, all the extra perks gets overlooked by the frustration of the gameplay so whatever halftime show EA wants to implement, wont matter if the game plays like crap. Get the gameplay right first and then everything else builds upon a good game.

At this point, i think the game has been developed too long to even allow the game to change. I dont see many of the issues we have today going away soon.

[BezO]

dkp,

I agree with you accept that I don't think 2K's animations were any less canned. They were just programmed better and triggered in the proper context and interruptable. But they didn't have a physics engine or anything like that. Just some very good programming.

I can't call it for EA. Their programming is just very static. To give an example that I'm more familiar with, I suggested retiering the defensive playbooks to allow for separate blitz/stunt and coverage/shell calls. I was told they would have to completely redo the blocking AI. In other words, the blocking was/is tied to the defensive call. This was back in 2009, but I don't believe it's changed.

This is the type of thing I'm talking about when I say Madden hasn't changed much. Some folks look at few new animations and some stated AI improvements and see change. I look at the core gameplay and see the same things I've seen the entire last gen.

The fact that the defensive assignments & blocking assignments are connected in such a way is a major problem. So something that we would think would be of moderate difficulty to change is extremely difficult for EA because of the base coding.

I believe this is the issue with tackling. For another game to have a better version 2 generations ago is alarming. Gang tackling & proper context obviously can be done. But something about EA's coding makes it a huge issue for THEM. I don't think this is something that producers can fix... the guys whose names we know, the idea guys. IMO, this is a deeper coding issue, handled by programmers whose names we don't know.

[Only1LT]

Tiburon has it's Madden development focus exactly where it needs to be. It's on gameplay. The issue that I have is that I don't think they've done enough in that department and what they have done wasn't implemented very well.

The focus is far from the problem. Just too little ROI for that focus.

[jyoung]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

I agree with you accept that I don't think 2K's animations were any less canned. They were just programmed better and triggered in the proper context and interruptable. But they didn't have a physics engine or anything like that. Just some very good programming.

There are definitely physics in a game like All-Pro Football 2K8, it's just that they're not procedurally generated like they are in Backbreaker or in Madden.

Physics are what allow larger running backs like Christian Okoye to fall forward while being tackled, whereas a smaller runner like Dave Meggett gets stopped in his tracks or pushed backwards.

Physics also allow a huge nose tackle like William Perry to push the center back into the quarterback's face, before he even attempts a pass rush "special move" animation. Conversely, a smaller tackle like Mike Golic will get pushed off the line of scrimmage by a skilled center like Dermontti Dawson, without the need for a silly, decleating "pancake" animation.

Every tackle and blocking collision in the game is judging the weight, direction and momentum of the colliding players to determine the type of animation that plays out (pushed back, pushed forward, neutral held up).