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OS Roundtable: Looking Back at Football Edition

#1: Which franchise had the better run in this previous generation, Madden or NCAA?

Robert Kollars: NCAA to me had the better run, but that doesn't mean it was smooth sailing. The NCAA team did a better job of incorporating an online dynasty/franchise, and by doing so added some incredible depth and longevity to the title.

Jayson Young: Of the two series, Madden released the best overall game (Madden NFL 10), but NCAA Football was more innovative and a more consistent performer on a year-to-year basis. Either way, trying to pick a winner out of these two under-performing franchises is like the Vikings trying to choose between starting Josh Freeman or Christian Ponder at quarterback.

Matthew Coe: NCAA Football had the better run and it isn't even close in my opinion. Madden has been seemingly in a perpetual "wait until next year" cycle this entire generation while NCAA Football actually built upon it's strong core game and made logical upgrades and changes.

Evan: Despite the recent news, I would say NCAA took this generation in terms of the gridiron battle. NCAA continued to provide a solid product with new features added every year to constantly try and improve. Even if the feature implementation was not successful, the people at NCAA seemed to use it as a learning experience. NCAA did all this without any sort of competition, unfortunately the same cannot be said for Madden, which used the lack of competition to settle for consistently safe product releases, which had no general sense of direction for the franchise.

Dustin Toms: I almost fell like NCAA had the better run. College football has a much more passionate following. There are few things that match the school pride of any Division I program. Personally, I enjoyed Madden more often than NCAA. Nothing could beat recruiting in the offseason, but winning the Super Bowl was much more gratifying.

#2: Where does All-Pro Football 2K8 fit in the discussion among the best football games this past generation?

RK: It has to be in the top three of any list. If 2K would have included a franchise mode and had access to the NFL license, it would have owned this generation of football gaming.

JY: All-Pro Football 2K8 belongs at the very top of the list. Its gameplay still offers the most realistic representation of football on the XBOX 360 or PlayStation 3. The customization issues it shipped with have since been solved by the modding community. As a gamer who prefers to compete against adaptive human players instead of predictable computer opponents, the absence of a multi-season offline mode has never bothered me.

MC: At the top of the list. It is the greatest simulation football game that gamers were able to play on this generation of consoles. The discussion can't even be legitimately held about the best football games without APF 2K8.

E: In terms of gameplay, All-Pro Football 2K8 deserves to be in the conversation as one of the best football titles on this generation of consoles. The game play was excellent in terms of variety, realism, and graphical shine. What did All-Pro Football in was the very concept of the game as it quickly went stale. There was no ability to do to anything beyond a single season, and even though the customization options were rigorous the confines of the player creation still made it too little to hold gamer's attention.

DT: I swear I'm not playing Devil's Advocate, but for as fun as APF 2K8 was, it wasn't the best football game released this generation. My vote is Madden 13; Connected Careers is special, even though it needs tweaking. These games really do get better as time goes on, it's just Madden's jump in improvement year-to-year was much smaller than other sports games.

#3: In a paragraph, diagnose Madden's biggest problem since debuting on the XBOX 360.

RK: While the Madden franchise has dealt with numerous issues, I think the two biggest were the lack of competition and misguided direction. EA Tiburon lacks focus, and by doing so their NFL franchise seemingly has had a different goal almost every year. What makes MLB The Show such a great series is that the team keeps its core strengths on a yearly basis, and works to correct the game's weaknesses. EA never seemed to embrace that concept during this generation, and as we mentioned before, the lack of competition surely did not help the cause. What EA needs to do is build a true football simulation, and let the fan-base adapt to the game. I understand the need to appeal to the masses, but NBA 2K and MLB the Show also need to accomplish this, and still find a way to capture the true essence of their respective sport.

JY: Realistic player movement has been a longstanding issue for all EA Sports games on the XBOX 360 and PlayStation 3. Both Madden and NCAA Football leave this generation as the two ugliest sports games in motion. Until EA Tiburon gets its animation systems up to par with other sports developers, Visual Concepts, SCEA San Diego Studio and Konami will continue making Madden look like a third-string sports game.

MC: Lack of direction. Starting with Madden 06 and Madden 07, it was all about pushing the visuals but leaving out the core game modes like franchise and owner mode. Then came, Madden NFL 08 and the less said about it the better honestly ... I have no idea how that game made it out of the door. Then with Madden NFL 09-12 we had a renewed focus on the NFL part of the game. More authentic sounds, sights, commentary, and other peripheral things that attempted to make it an NFL game, not just a Madden game. Madden 13 marked yet another sharp change in direction with the infinity engine and connected careers mode. Madden NFL 25 continued that and re-introduced owner mode. Who knows where the series goes from here. That's the problem.

E: If the it was not required in terms of an explanation, I could explain Madden's biggest problem in one word: complacency. Madden's problem is that it is content to sit on its throne and focus on rewarding shareholders as opposed to rewarding who they should be focusing on: the consumers. Despite increases in technology Madden has yet to incorporate WR and DB interaction present a console generation ago in NFL 2K5. Madden brings back more features then it does create new ones, and consistently disappoints with game killing bugs, exploits, and glitches - which takes away from any potential variety in terms of competitive play. Many of these are so blatant that it appears as though the game was never even tested which further continues to give the impression of a lack of commitment to the consumer.

DT: I have to agree with Matt on this one. He pegged it perfectly. Madden has never had a lack of direction. It was always the "three-year plan." The problem was that at the end of every third year, EA would claim they're rebuilding and rebranding the game to make a more immersive experience. Getting a brand new franchise every three years was exhausting and upsetting. It's almost as if consumer backlash spun them in circles. It might be ironic, but focus on making a realistic football sim while ignoring what the consumer wants. Who cares what we're asking if EA knows they're making a damn good game?

#4: What is the one aspect of football games we still haven't seen executed correctly?

RK: Secondary and wide receiver interaction. While APF2K8 did a better job than EA's attempts, it still had room for improvement. I will say that it may have had a lot to do with hardware limitations, but that doesn't excuse the fact that this area has been somewhat neglected for far too long.

JY: Other team sports titles like FIFA Soccer 14, NHL 14 or even the NFL Blitz and NBA Jam remakes have proved that a well-executed online team play mode can turn an otherwise mediocre video game into an incredibly fun cooperative experience. Madden has not improved or attempted to expand its three-on-three team up mode since the feature debuted in Madden NFL 11. Seven-on-seven online leagues are something that football gaming has never tried, and I believe it would take off just as clubs have in the FIFA and NHL series.

MC: There are many, but if I have to chose one I will say that it's the aspect of individual team identities. For example, when you play Madden NFL 25 against the Chiefs, you should expect, and have to gameplan for, a large dose of Jamaal Charles and Alex Smith trying to carve you up in the short passing game. When playing the Saints, it's all about Drew Brees and his weapons over the middle and out of the backfield. What I'm getting at, I guess, is a higher form of artificial intelligence combined with real life statistics and play-calling tendencies. Signature styles, if you will.

E: I will refer to the prior answer and again state the interaction before, during, and after the ball arrives between defensive backs and wide receivers. The interaction in Madden and NCAA ceases to exist once the initial bump at the line is completed. There is nothing in terms of pushing off, down-the-field hand checking, or face guarding to create a more fluent and realistic feel to the passing game. As a result of this lack of physicality and random events, it creates the environment we have now where off the line you know if a player is either going to be wide open or in blanket coverage the instant they get off the line.

DT: Presentation. All football presentation was sorely lacking this entire generation. I'm a huge advocate of keeping NFL 2K5 in the past, but when a game from the original Xbox still has the best presentation from any NFL game ever, something is wrong. This goes for commentary as well.

#5: Is football gaming in a better or worse place at the end of this generation?

RK: When only one company has a license, football gaming will never be in a better place. Football fans need choices, and sadly that option has dwindled down to just one with the removal of NCAA Football. Let's hope that the NFL license opens up again in 2014. Not because I want to see Madden go away, but because competition drives people to put forth a better effort and product.

JY: The genre is worse off, for the simple reason that gamers are now down to just one football developer (EA Tiburon) and one football franchise (Madden NFL). Midway Games went bankrupt in 2009. Natural Motion abandoned console gaming in 2011 and now makes mobile games exclusively. Take-Two Interactive has shown no interest in releasing another unlicensed football game after All-Pro Football 2K8 lost money. The only hope football fans have at this point is for the NFL exclusivity deal to expire without renewal.

MC: Football gaming is not better off as we end this generation. That's kind of mind boggling when you consider that we had nowhere to go but up from Madden NFL 06. The state of football gaming took a sharp turn for the worse when EA Sports was granted the exclusive NFL license just prior to the start of this console generation, and then dealt another severe blow when the NCAA Football series was killed off earlier this year. A one game, Madden-only football future doesn't look all that appealing to me.

E: It is certainly hard to say that it is worse off purely based off of the available technology. This generation has given us graphical enhancements, game play enhancements, and social enhancements such as online franchises. I however will say that despite the potential, we are worse off because the overall feel is no more immersive than it was on the PlayStation 2 or the original Xbox.

DT: It's worse, unfortunately. Is Madden NFL 25 a better game than Madden NFL 06 on the original Xbox? Yes. Is Madden NFL 25 as fun and addicting and awesome and time-consuming and mind-blowing and as flat out fun as Madden NFL 06 on the original Xbox? Not even close.


Member Comments
# 1 Blitzburgh @ 11/08/13 12:02 PM
Nice read! I only wish the NFL would get blasted by these type of comments 24/7 and then maybe they will realize how this exclusivity is not what the consumer wants.
 
# 2 boomhauertjs @ 11/08/13 12:04 PM
If 2k would've just made AP2k8 fully customizable and saved money on licensing of legends, it probably would have turned a profit.
 
# 3 FreAk47 @ 11/08/13 12:17 PM
The one thing I feel has never been represented by Madden, is truly organic animations and physics. Anything should be able to happen on any given play, and no two plays should be identical. With Madden you repeatedly see the same tackle animations, same blocking animations, and there is never a sense that any given play can surprise you with something amazing. Just really a lack of any "Wow" factor, everything is the same old same old Madden.
 
# 4 wordtobigbird @ 11/08/13 01:18 PM
Madden can only win when compared to older Maddens. Madden compared to other football and other sports games will lose in almost every category. Hopefully this can change soon.
 
# 5 malky @ 11/08/13 01:32 PM
DT says it all:

DT: Presentation. All football presentation was sorely lacking this entire generation. I'm a huge advocate of keeping NFL 2K5 in the past, but when a game from the original Xbox still has the best presentation from any NFL game ever, something is wrong. This goes for commentary as well.


Its like he is reading my mind and millions of others, PLEASE 2K FOOTBALL come back!!!... that is all
 
# 6 wordtobigbird @ 11/08/13 01:33 PM
Quote:
MC: There are many, but if I have to chose one I will say that it's the aspect of individual team identities. For example, when you play Madden NFL 25 against the Chiefs, you should expect, and have to gameplan for, a large dose of Jamaal Charles and Alex Smith trying to carve you up in the short passing game. When playing the Saints, it's all about Drew Brees and his weapons over the middle and out of the backfield. What I'm getting at, I guess, is a higher form of artificial intelligence combined with real life statistics and play-calling tendencies. Signature styles, if you will.
This. If they improve the play calling AI on Next Gen it will do a lot to making the game more fun and will be easier than other huge changes to the engine or whatever else. Hopefully this is high up on the priority list.
 
# 7 wordtobigbird @ 11/08/13 01:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by slick589
AI is one thing but the animations need to be there also. The stuff you see in madden isn't the stuff you see irl in relation to movement, interaction, and animations.
Without a doubt. Personally, I'd want them to start from scratch with an entire new engine but that's not realistic. Speaking realistically, they could get the CPU to actually call the correct plays for the style of offense with the same animations and it would be a huge improvement to the game.

Especially because they have multiple teams that work on different things. I'm really looking forward to seeing what the player sense and AI improvements do for next gen.
 
# 8 wordtobigbird @ 11/08/13 02:25 PM
Preface, I have never played 2k8.

Less than a minute and half in and I am wow'd by 2 post play things in a row.

- At 1:15. After the whistle blows two guys get into it. One is pushing the other and they start pointing into each others faces.

- At 1:22 on the next play, the defender makes a tackle for loss. He lays out like hes dead for some reason lol but after that his teammate walks up to him and gives him some celebratory chest punches.

Makes me kind of sad that I didn't play it and that Madden doesnt have it.. :/
 
# 9 wordtobigbird @ 11/08/13 02:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by royounggoku
Look at the downfield blocking at 2:20 man it's crazy.
The animations really highlight the feel that the players are giving effort and struggling to get to through that block.

I guess the game is too old to buy digitally on Xbox but I just got the demo.
 
# 10 roadman @ 11/08/13 03:07 PM
The developers at Madden have seen 2k

Heck, Ian used to keep the game running in the office.

I'm sure Madden is trying to get there.
 
# 11 asu666 @ 11/08/13 03:35 PM
2K8 would have owned the generation if it had a franchise mode. I played through a season, but starting over with all the stats reset killed the possibility of me continuing to keep it in the regular rotation of games I play. Now, I mostly play a game here-and-there when I realize how disappointed I am with Madden each August. I want to believe that Madden on Ps4 can change that, but the picture is mixed at best a week before launch.
 
# 12 SkillzKillz719 @ 11/08/13 07:57 PM
These articles always make me so sad. Why doesn't NCAA College Football 2k16 exist yet..

2k always has dominated the football genre. They will continue to do this if they had the resources.
 
# 13 24 @ 11/08/13 08:57 PM
I hate to make the discussion all about 2K Vs Madden. But we must face the facts. When a Game as old as NFL 2k5 which was now produced 2 console generations ago still outperforms certain aspects of a new game that is a problem.

Madden takes their market position for granted. SECA continues to put out stunning games with MLB The Show, despite the fact that they now have zero competition from anyone. They are always building upon old features. rarely anything is ever removed, there is no "3 Year Plan", and it seems they genuinely care about our input.

Madden on the other hand? Not so much. When Ian was heading up the project Madden seemed to really be turning it around. Now with th exception of Ultimate Team Madden has regressed. Franchise mode has been wiped off the face of the planet and replaced with "Connected Careers" and gameplay always seems to be an issue.

I'm not trying to bash, I am just so dissatisfied and disappointed with EA. Madden used to be great. They truly innovated back in the day and they no longer do that now.
 
# 14 Hassan Darkside @ 11/08/13 09:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by royounggoku
WARNING: I'm posting a video of All-Pro 2k8 PLEASE nobody catch feelings. Mute the video if you like because he's pretty much praising 2k throughout but please I encourage even the most hardcore of Madden fans if you enjoy football PLEASE fully look at this video objectively and give your thoughts.



I'm not saying there aren't quirky things happening, players to do make weird jerky cuts at times but it is by far overpowered by the beautiful gameplay. THIS is the kind of thing that needs to be seen and I don't know if it can happen without something drastic like an overhaul to the engine.
One thing I just noticed is at 1:50 you actually see John Elway side arm a throw to fit the ball through a small window to Jerry Rice on a crossing route.
 
# 15 rootofalleli @ 11/08/13 10:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wordtobigbird
Preface, I have never played 2k8.

Less than a minute and half in and I am wow'd by 2 post play things in a row.

- At 1:15. After the whistle blows two guys get into it. One is pushing the other and they start pointing into each others faces.

- At 1:22 on the next play, the defender makes a tackle for loss. He lays out like hes dead for some reason lol but after that his teammate walks up to him and gives him some celebratory chest punches.

Makes me kind of sad that I didn't play it and that Madden doesnt have it.. :/
I too have never played 2k8. Wow.

The post-play, the sidelines, the movement... so much better. Gang tackles looked decent, pursuit angles were solid, and the ball physics on that early tipped pass for an INT made me tear up a little.

I don't want to go off on another tirade. This is just... wtf.

 
# 16 d11king @ 11/08/13 10:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by royounggoku
WARNING: I'm posting a video of All-Pro 2k8 PLEASE nobody catch feelings. Mute the video if you like because he's pretty much praising 2k throughout but please I encourage even the most hardcore of Madden fans if you enjoy football PLEASE fully look at this video objectively and give your thoughts.


Bruh this video just made me lose interest in my online league.
 
# 17 jyoung @ 11/08/13 10:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruff Ryder
One thing I just noticed is at 1:50 you actually see John Elway side arm a throw to fit the ball through a small window to Jerry Rice on a crossing route.
Elway was one of the quarterbacks in APF 2K8 who had his own custom throw animations and his own custom play action animations.

I believe there are around 20 different "animation packages" for quarterbacks in the game.

Additionally, the throw animations for every quarterback would change depending on how much pressure was around him. It's a lot like the "dynamic shot animations" feature that NBA 2K14 is trying on PS4.
 
# 18 wordtobigbird @ 11/08/13 11:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jyoung
Elway was one of the quarterbacks in APF 2K8 who had his own custom throw animations and his own custom play action animations.

I believe there are around 20 different "animation packages" for quarterbacks in the game.

Additionally, the throw animations for every quarterback would change depending on how much pressure was around him. It's a lot like the "dynamic shot animations" feature that NBA 2K14 is trying on PS4.
Wow. Impressive.

I wish EA would just pull an Apple/Android and steal lol. Good features are just good features.
 
# 19 RandomPerson @ 11/09/13 12:25 AM
APF 2K8 was the best football game of this gen and it's not even close.
 
# 20 RogueHominid @ 11/09/13 08:06 AM
Man, what a sad commentary. I think the lesson is that Tiburon isn't capable of making an elite game, period. This was definitely a generation of disappointment for football gamers. Madden went nowhere, NCAA doesn't exist anymore, and APF gave us one tantalizing installment but no more.
 

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