Madden NFL 16 News Post

The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

04:10 PM - February 19, 2016 by RaychelSnr

In Super Bowl 50, football fans watched the Denver Broncos win a championship with arguably the deepest and deadliest defense to play in the NFL's current Penalty Flag Era (TM). But in Madden NFL 16, gamers won't be able to generate consistent pressure on quarterbacks or shutdown opponents' top receivers using Gary Kubiak's dominant defensive unit (I call them Kubiak's defense, because Madden still doesn't include any coordinators or assistant coaches).

Drive Out, Four Verticals, Inside Zone, Fullback Dive �- those four plays are all it takes to consistently move the chains in Madden NFL 16, even on the hardest difficulty setting (All-Madden), against the highest-rated defenses in the game...

Read More - The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

Game: Madden NFL 16Reader Score: 7/10 - Vote Now
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# 41 2_headedmonster @ 02/25/16 11:04 AM

We've been pointing out this for years and madden just doesn't care.

# 42 RicoLaguno @ 02/25/16 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by khaliib


	The first thing that must happen is that EA must move away from the "football" being the main, if not only, determinate that drives/dictates what plays out during a play. Everything (Procedural Awareness) seems to be driven by the current location or desired end result of the football. Example: Instead of the Zone Coverage rating representing some form of AI Awareness of a players zone cover responsibility, it dictates how "quickly" a defensive player will react to the ball leaving the QB hand and run directly to the balls ending path-line, to animate out the end result of it being knocked down or INT'd. This is the tandem animation that plays out even when the defensive players are on opposite sides of the field. The offensive player doesn't drive a defensive players positioning/reaction to his zone being violated as he should, but the football location while behind the LOS (pocket vs rollout) then as the QB releases the ball, defensive players slide/shift to the path-line. The ugliness of this is really seen when defensive players running with their back to the LOS are able to keep a perfect relationship to the WR every time as they are linked to meet at the end path of the ball. This runs true for all other aspects of gameplay also. - line play - special teams - tackling - etc.... Currently, the football has everything "tethered" to it and until Procederal Awareness is redone to focus a little more on the players, getting the AI to utilize concepts to be more adaptive will continue to be problematic to say the least. Not even the Camera Views can seem to escape this issue!!! (Broadcast view especially)

this is a very interesting perspective...and I agree with alot of it. There needs to be more off ball strategy and AI that is taking place

# 43 RicoLaguno @ 02/25/16 08:16 PM

Also I have always felt that the Madden engine isnt deep enough/complex enough. I dont think its performing alot of detailed calculations under the hood. Many plays unfold into repetitive outcomes with animations being tied to dice roll algorhythms that arent really taking into consideration enough variations of the player attributes and ratings

So what you get is alot of the same outcomes of plays regardless of the subtle differences in player ratings/attributes. There simply isnt enough organic variation to seperation and play development. Many of the same play calls will have the same exact players running to the same exact places on the field at the same exact time with the same exact takedown animations with the same exact spacing and seperation and timing to break up a pass or get to the outside to make a shoe string trip up tackle...ect, etc, etc!!

This is what is really killing the Madden series and it has been doing it for years!

Play a game like PES 16 and see how much more organically players react, plays unfold and develop, and how distinctions in players and team styles play out on the field. Regardless, that its soccer, you can see the difference between a more polished and deeper gameplay engine at work when you play Pro Evo and then play Madden.....thoughts?

# 44 Allball76 @ 03/02/16 03:49 PM

Ratings are all jacked up everyone a 90 or 99 ! Von miller don't feel elite! we should have to game plan for miller and say jj watt! All players seem to much the same if von miller was the highest rated player at a 90 then the avg olb starter should be 65 overall . This would make big difference

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMChrisS


	In Super Bowl 50, football fans watched the Denver Broncos win a championship with arguably the deepest and deadliest defense to play in the NFL's current Penalty Flag Era (TM). But in Madden NFL 16, gamers won't be able to generate consistent pressure on quarterbacks or shutdown opponents' top receivers using Gary Kubiak's dominant defensive unit (I call them Kubiak's defense, because Madden still doesn't include any coordinators or assistant coaches). Drive Out, Four Verticals, Inside Zone, Fullback Dive �- those four plays are all it takes to consistently move the chains in Madden NFL 16, even on the hardest difficulty setting (All-Madden), against the highest-rated defenses in the game... Read More - The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

# 45 MAGboyswifT27 @ 03/02/16 05:43 PM

Great post! Any way EA can read this?

# 46 jfsolo @ 03/02/16 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAGboyswifT27


	Great post! Any way EA can read this?

They don't post much during the winter/spring when working on the next iteration, but IMO, last year's interaction by Rex and others made it pretty clear that they do read the Madden threads here.

By the time this article came out they would have probably locked down the feature set for M17, so hopefully they had already decided to make changes that will allow defenses to be more dominant.

The performance by both teams in the Super Bowl hopefully just added a push to the direction that they were already treading toward(fingers crossed)

# 47 roadman @ 03/02/16 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfsolo


	They don't post much during the winter/spring when working on the next iteration, but IMO, last year's interaction by Rex and others made it pretty clear that they do read the Madden threads here. By the time this article came out they would have probably locked down the feature set for M17, so hopefully they had already decided to make changes that will allow defenses to be more dominant. The performance by both teams in the Super Bowl hopefully just added a push to the direction that they were already treading toward(fingers crossed)

Agreed, less than 3 months away and the game is near or at beta format.

# 48 EASPORTS_AJ @ 03/09/16 11:44 AM

This is a well thought out writeup, and I appreciate the time that went into it. Your feedback is always heard, and I appreciate the dedicated fanbase over here at OS. Once again, that you guys for the suggestions and feedback on the game.

-AJ

#GoBroncos

# 49 Downtown Bob @ 04/06/16 02:23 PM

This article pretty much brings to light the reason I do not play Madden anymore. This is a great article about the main problem with Madden and I applaud the author. Defenses have no awareness. I love Madden and played a lot of Madden 15, but 16 is just broken. Hopefully changes will be made and I can go back to playing Madden 17.

# 50 avwhitechic @ 04/07/16 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMChrisS


	In Super Bowl 50, football fans watched the Denver Broncos win a championship with arguably the deepest and deadliest defense to play in the NFL's current Penalty Flag Era (TM). But in Madden NFL 16, gamers won't be able to generate consistent pressure on quarterbacks or shutdown opponents' top receivers using Gary Kubiak's dominant defensive unit (I call them Kubiak's defense, because Madden still doesn't include any coordinators or assistant coaches). Drive Out, Four Verticals, Inside Zone, Fullback Dive �- those four plays are all it takes to consistently move the chains in Madden NFL 16, even on the hardest difficulty setting (All-Madden), against the highest-rated defenses in the game... Read More - The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

Great well written piece...Madden's scripted game gets in its own way

# 51 roadman @ 04/11/16 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SportsGamer94


	Didn't Rex say in a podcast that he was pretty much satisfied with where the gameplay is? That makes me think gameplay isn't going to receive as much attention this year, hope that's not the case but that's how I took it.

I understand how you would take that because that is how it sounded, but I'm sure there will be a few things or more added to game play to market the game.

# 52 roadman @ 04/12/16 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SportsGamer94


	As you can see from this thread, gameplay needs more than a few things added. I took it as him saying gameplay isn't going to be the main focus anymore.

Yeah, I know that is how it sounded or how one may take it, but I still feel there will be marketable items for game play.

Just take a look at his twitter feed, people bombard him with game play videos every day. One thing people keep bringing up to him, zones need to be improved.

I don't think I ever said in here that game play doesn't need improvements, the whole game needs improvements all the way around.

# 53 roadman @ 04/12/16 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gridiron


	On the real, the question is always gonna be, will it work right? The air supremacy thing went from good to gimmick when you had dudes sliding and warping into position, and having animations that couldn't be stopped no matter what you did with the WR or DB. You can't have tandem animations in a sim football game. Why would they record them together like that and think it's a good idea? After people complained about all the crazy catches being made, they toned that part down at least, but it still didn't fix the animations being stuck together. That part ruined the whole feature. I just wanna see them do one thing that works right. It's like, even when they add a good idea, they still find a way to mess it up.

Agreed, I will say, though, this is the first time in years, that I haven't tinkered with sliders for several months to get the way I play the game. Gone were the days of messing with sliders till Thanksgiving.

And that is important to me, in addition, I'm still playing the game, which is unusual for me. I'm usually done by the Super Bowl or earlier.

# 54 Hooe @ 04/12/16 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gridiron


	You can't have tandem animations in a sim football game.

Says who? Is this a hard-and-fast rule somewhere in video game development I'm unaware of, in which case are all the other sports games doing it wrong too since they also have multiple-actor animations?

Quote:


	Why would they record them together like that and think it's a good idea?

Clearly, Tiburon thought two-man animation tech was an ideal path to achieve a gameplay feature a lot of their hardcore fans wanted - battles between WRs and DBs for passes - in a way that synergized with their current tech base, was achievable in a single cycle, and would deliver a new means for players to interact with the game (the RAC / Aggressive / Possession catches vs Play Ball / Play Man control mechanics). The decisions they make as to how to build their game aren't made in a vacuum.

Quote:


	After people complained about all the crazy catches being made, they toned that part down at least, but it still didn't fix the animations being stuck together. That part ruined the whole feature.

Considering the number of people across the Madden and general video game community who praised the new catch gameplay mechanics, I don't think tandem animations "ruined" anything.

There are things to improve - aggressive catch chances probably still need tuning as you alluded to, and there's no dedicated Swat Ball button as far as I know (a big missing piece in the defensive gameplay mechanics of the feature) - but to suggest the feature is an abject failure isn't intellectually honest.

Quote:


	I just wanna see them do one thing that works right.

There's plenty in Madden NFL 16 that "works right" at this point. There's still plenty more work to do to achieve the shared goal of "sim football" - I made a post in this thread saying as much - but this isn't 2007, Madden 16 is a compelling football video game that stands up on its own two feet now.

# 55 4thQtrStre5S @ 04/12/16 12:49 PM

^^^ In Regards to the OL blocking still being bad in Madden, I have to agree 110%...And it doesn't matter the AWR or Pass or Run block ratings; there are many missed blocks that are so badly missed, you would never even see it in the NFL, by the worst OL player.

I hope EA/Tiburon continue to work at making the OL/DL interaction better..It has gotten better in the past couple years, but still needs a lot of attention.

# 56 SolidSquid @ 04/12/16 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roadman


	Yeah, I know that is how it sounded or how one may take it, but I still feel there will be marketable items for game play. Just take a look at his twitter feed, people bombard him with game play videos every day. One thing people keep bringing up to him, zones need to be improved. I don't think I ever said in here that game play doesn't need improvements, the whole game needs improvements all the way around.

Yea something is wrong with zone AI. The biggest issues are guys still guarding zones that have zero threat to them and guys not breaking when the qb starts to throw. I can't count how many time I see defenders not breaking on the ball until the wr has made the catch.

# 57 SolidSquid @ 04/12/16 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4thQtrStre5S


	^^^ In Regards to the OL blocking still being bad in Madden, I have to agree 110%...And it doesn't matter the AWR or Pass or Run block ratings; there are many missed blocks that are so badly missed, you would never even see it in the NFL, by the worst OL player. I hope EA/Tiburon continue to work at making the OL/DL interaction better..It has gotten better in the past couple years, but still needs a lot of attention.

I def agree with this but at the same time there are still too many instances of sub par pass blockers stone walling elite pass rushers. The problem is there no reasons to make adjustments, in real football when a good pass rushers goes against a sub par pass blocker there is help in terms of chips, doubles, and slides. These simply aren't in madden( the chip block animation is but there is no way to actually call it and set it up).

# 58 khaliib @ 04/13/16 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4thQtrStre5S


	^^^ In Regards to the OL blocking still being bad in Madden, I have to agree 110%...And it doesn't matter the AWR or Pass or Run block ratings; there are many missed blocks that are so badly missed, you would never even see it in the NFL, by the worst OL player. I hope EA/Tiburon continue to work at making the OL/DL interaction better..It has gotten better in the past couple years, but still needs a lot of attention.

1) This is largely do to using old school code that uses a static radius metric in regard/relation to the "LOS" for each blocking position on the "OL" to give a perception of a formed "pocket/arc".

- that's why "C" are rarely driven backwards, as there radius from the LOS is very small.
- G's have a slightly larger radius than C, but not much.
- T's have the greatest radius (which is why they're the only position that has blocking interaction that extends more than 4 yrds behind the LOS)

The OL will not break away from this "pocket" forming rule.
OL, TE's and RB's will slide and/or break out of blocking interactions to fulfill.
- even the RB's have a set radius and will not be driven backwards further than for the sake of the "pocket".

2) Reacting needs to be reversed.
- currently the DL/OLB's react only after the OL has moved.
- there is a very visible delay by the DL when the ball is snapped so the rule can take affect.
- even "Jump Snap" is marginalized to adhere to the rule.
- DL should lead into blocking interactions, not the OL.

3) Timing needs to be tuned (relating this with the OP)
- QB drop back is way too fast in relation to the defensive rush.
- this throws everything off because both AI and Hum QB's are "waiting" as the other aspects of the play, play catch up.

Much of the frustration is just dealing with aspects of "old code" that limit/hinder the desires they want to achieve.

Hopefully we will see a huge jump/change in M17!!!

# 59 jfsolo @ 04/13/16 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by khaliib


	1) This is largely do to using old school code that uses a static radius metric in regard/relation to the "LOS" for each blocking position on the "OL" to give a perception of a formed "pocket/arc". - that's why "C" are rarely driven backwards, as there radius from the LOS is very small. - G's have a slightly larger radius than C, but not much. - T's have the greatest radius (which is why they're the only position that has blocking interaction that extends more than 4 yrds behind the LOS) The OL will not break away from this "pocket" forming rule. OL, TE's and RB's will slide and/or break out of blocking interactions to fulfill. - even the RB's have a set radius and will not be driven backwards further than for the sake of the "pocket". 2) Reacting needs to be reversed. - currently the DL/OLB's react only after the OL has moved. - there is a very visible delay by the DL when the ball is snapped so the rule can take affect. - even "Jump Snap" is marginalized to adhere to the rule. - DL should lead into blocking interactions, not the OL. 3) Timing needs to be tuned (relating this with the OP) - QB drop back is way too fast in relation to the defensive rush. - this throws everything off because both AI and Hum QB's are "waiting" as the other aspects of the play, play catch up. Much of the frustration is just dealing with aspects of "old code" that limit/hinder the desires they want to achieve. Hopefully we will see a huge jump/change in M17!!!

Given the scope of what needs to be addressed, I'm not optimistic of a huge jump happening, but I do hope that at least some of the most static elements will be improved in some fashion.

# 60 Allball76 @ 04/26/16 11:24 AM

I'll say it again ratings make a big difference if the avg starting WR was a 65 overall and a back up was a 55 and bad players were 45 ! And then you had say Chris Harris rated at a 87 to 89 all on a hall of fame rating scale . And same with linemen a avg line that has a mixture of 60 to 70 rated linemen vs a Denver defense that had a 91 Von Miller and a Demarcus ware rated about 80 to 85 ! You would see a big difference ! I have made rosters like this and tested it I took 2 teams and re did then and I seen the results ! I seen the QB inaccuracy again witch diaper after the patches . Yes the ai still needs twitching but just reworking the whole rating scale will change things the player are just too close in ratings right now ! The 84 offense linemen vs a 99 j.j watt is just too close and when they tune the pass rush it's makes it so all players get pressure or no players get pressure ! Vs it should be certain players always get pressure those elite guys ! If QB accuracy matter more and defense stood out more ,then aggressive catches wouldn't matter as much because my Revis that would be rated a 86-89 vs your starting WR that's a 62 would lose the battle 9/10 times but it be same vise versa . Dez Bryant on this scale be a 85 to 89 WR vs your 65 overall corner you be in trouble and better double team him .I say start with a whole new rating system it works it really dose . It's time consuming to relate every player on ever team but you can tell the difference !

Quote:

Originally Posted by SportsGamer94


	You may be right unfortunately, given the fact that they brought in Clint O. to overhaul the line play and all they've done for three years is implement band-aids within the limits of the system and not address the real issues, the entire line-play system needs to be scrapped and rebuilt, this area is where NFL 2K5 and APF 2K8 absolutly crushes Madden.

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