NBA 2K16 News Post

NBA 2K16: The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)

12:55 PM - January 29, 2016 by ChaseB

In the first part of this feature I wrote a lot about how often NBA teams are making each type of contested shot in comparison to NBA 2K. The feedback has been great both on here and elsewhere, and today I want to talk more about the specifics of these contested shots.

What that means is plenty more GIFs, and also a look at some shot types (some contested, some uncontested) in NBA 2K and how they relate to the NBA. In addition, I want to talk more about contested shots in terms of the disconnect between video games and the actual NBA.

All in all, this will be slightly less nerdy and a little more philosophical than part one. However, let me make one thing clear before the jump: Contested shots are a fact of NBA life.

Great, now let me dive in here.

Read More - The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)

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# 1 ChaseB @ 01/29/16 01:01 PM

If you folks feel like answering any of them, I ask a bunch of questions within the feature as well.

# 2 ataman5 @ 01/29/16 03:31 PM

Chase man!! I loved and co-sign every point you wanted make in this read just as the first part!

I can't think of a game w/o balancing on its own on every sequences there are two parts risk/reward. As 2j devs keep developping the branches from what i mean is the branch that step-backs are all natural on both end of the floors then we'll see much more Curry being Curry also with user input quality.

It's a very good read and just shows us how many big strides 2k16 have made and we're here to discuss these..

I'll try answering your questions later..

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# 3 shayellis @ 01/29/16 04:03 PM

Simply amazing article. Very clear and concise and showcases the problems 2k has with shooting compared to real life. I really hope the devs are looking and taking this all into account. A couple of points:

1. Youre correct that the turbo contest without jumping while a player is shooting, still needs to be a foul, and shouldnt carry the same weight as contesting with your hands up.

2. those fall on block animations need to be fouls every time.

3. On the steph curry A- vs D- grade, i dont think that deserves a drop that significant.
I also think the grading system on decent shots like a face up mid range is too heavily penalized. For instance if i face up with AD and shoot a midrange, no matter the contest, im basically guranteed a d- rating, its absurd

# 4 hanzsomehanz @ 01/29/16 04:40 PM

Moving shots to create space deserve C or better grades depending on which move you selected.

To me this is the whole point of being a shot creator and having the badge but it's penalized very harshly to the point users shy away from it. On the contrary, CPU seems to be graced with more favorable outcomes on these shot selections regardless of the characters rating in ability.

I definitely would like to see more mid range shots go. I also will be more sympathetic of my drive and kick wide open corner 3s that clank. 😔

Overall, all your points resonate with me in the OP. I'm continuing to already be more tolerable of the wtf moments because they do occur. As you poignantly pointed out: contested makes are a lively part of the NBA. *Perfect defense does not always generate perfect outcomes for the defense.

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# 5 ffaacc03 @ 01/29/16 05:22 PM

First of all, yet another excellent article ...

Quote:


	1. Community Question: Do you think there�s an A-minus to D-minus difference in these shots just because Steph is leaning in one, while sprinting and coming to a stop in the other? 2. Community Question: Would you like to see more stepback jumpers and leaning jumpers end in successful makes? 3. Community Question: With that in mind, do you think you come anywhere close to a third of your shots coming from mid-range in your average NBA 2K game? 4. Community Question: If the shot in the GIF above went in one out of three times in NBA 2K (assuming you�re using a viable 3-point shooter), would you be okay with it?

1. That is too much of a penalty considering Steph is among the above average moving shooters. However this should still be considered by the game on a player to player base as there are players that are good when set and others that are good when dont, a few are good at both.

2. The same as above, depends on the player, but yes ... then again, the still prevalent left, right, left, right, shoot tactic would be even more relevant, as relevant as it was before 16.

3. Attempts wise no, at least not when playing vs other hums, vs the AI maybe, but may venture to also say no.

4. 3 out of 10 times, yes, but as the other cases, depending on a player to player base. There are players that can knock contested shots more often than others and those I would like them to do so a bit more often than those who dont.

Then again, as you have described in your article, these situations arent on an island, arent isolated and are interwinded, related to others, and if altered my also alter the landscape of the game, all should be accounted to see the full scope of any alteration (open/contested shots, set/moving shots, onball d, close outs, fouls, etc). This type of feedback/articles go a long way into providing valuable info to the devs, here is to hope for further refinements to a great game.

P.S:
Hopefully we (the users) are given even more tools to finetune (edit) the gameplay on a individual/team base level (thinking on hotspots, hotzones, moving shots, etc).

# 6 ChaseB @ 01/29/16 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayellis


	3. On the steph curry A- vs D- grade, i dont think that deserves a drop that significant. I also think the grading system on decent shots like a face up mid range is too heavily penalized. For instance if i face up with AD and shoot a midrange, no matter the contest, im basically guranteed a d- rating, its absurd

Thanks for the kind words shay.

As to this final point, I tend to agree with this as well, though this is a bit of a unique issue. With guys like Dirk or something, yeah they don't really have shots that can be blocked or contested in a perfect way. I also think, as I talk about a bit in the article, people would rather body someone like AD even at mid-range and force the drive rather than give a little space for a jump shot. It feels easier to come up on someone and stop them rather than give room a lot of the time -- hand checking/bodying up still feels like it's a bit of a thing at times in 2K when it's really not ever kosher anymore in NBA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanzsomehanz


	Overall, all your points resonate with me in the OP. I'm continuing to already be more tolerable of the wtf moments because they do occur. As you poignantly pointed out: contested makes are a lively part of the NBA. *Perfect defense does not always generate perfect outcomes for the defense.

Wishing I would have stolen this line already

Quote:

Originally Posted by A6_Foul_Out


	This is great but in the meta game, this would ruin the game. Top level players Shoot Greens and dunks. Allowing them a higher percentage on shots that aren't green would make this problem even worse. The 'green release' mechanic needs to be heavily reworked. There's no reason that 97% of corner threes should go in for top players. Mid-ranges should not be 97% either. Top players get greens most times.

Are you saying in something like Pro-Am this is the expected outcome on these shot types, or even just Play Now Online "top level" players wind up with these results? I didn't talk about the green releases and such much here, but in part one I talked about how nobody wants the patch 4 green-release stuff to come back etc. Either way, I've never been crazy about "perfect" releases and all that. I understand it exists to add to the meta-game of adding "skill" to each shot, but I've felt more inclined to just worry about making sure you mostly release a shot at "about" the right time. It's a video game mechanic more than a basketball mechanic to me, but again, I get why it exists. But of course, that also means I would be open to the "release" system being tweaked.

# 7 dema @ 01/29/16 06:42 PM

I think the reason they currently can't have contested jumpers going in at a realistic percentage is that it would be too easy to just jack them up all game and still have a decent offence. This is because what 2k doesn't really simulate is the footwork of a player before his shot. That means coming off screens, pulling up for shots off the dribble etc, Included in that equation should be the pass that a player gets as well, what angle his receiving it at and how accurate is it. In the NBA you can see there are some players who are much better at getting into their shot in various situations that other players would probably put up an awkward shot.
So what i'm saying pretty much is the bit before the actual shot isn't simulated well. (probably because it would hard for 2k to do) But making that pre-shot part of the game skill based on the in game player and the user would make hitting a contested jumper seem less "unrealistic", and it can't just be under the hood calculations, the game has to show it. Because then the player knows "oh, he got that in because he set his feet right, the pass was straight to his chest and he followed through and released above the defender".

# 8 dema @ 01/29/16 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A6_Foul_Out


	This is what dimer and pass accuracy stats are supposed to be good for.

Yeh but i think often that stuff happens without any visual representation, if you've got a really bad passer you get the tough catch animation but otherwise its pretty hard to tell that it was good pass that let the guy get straight into his shot. Also footwork still isn't really apart of the game shooting wise.

# 9 JoFri @ 01/29/16 10:42 PM

absolutely agree with this writeup. this stmt is just so well made, "but if we want �sim-oriented� games, we also have to accept that "perfect" defense can still be trumped at times." the shooting % having one out of 3 with "fake" contest by defenders is fine imo. for real fake contest, if i can propose using the jump button, should lower the success rate. why? its a choice to make. when playing defense irl, i pick my poise whether to jump to try blocking the shot or just raise my hand. in video gaming if i choose to jump contest bcos i want to play better defense, then i need to be mentally prepared for jump ball fakes foul. i need to be smarter when playing defense. having hand raise using the right stick or like what u illustrated running towards the shooter should have less effect to alter the success rate of making that shot.

# 10 2_headedmonster @ 01/30/16 01:42 AM

Great write up man. Enjoyed the read.

-One thing i found odd, is when you talked about the contested shots you mentioned how the shots go in at a 30% clip, maybe less above the arch ( sub 30%), then rounded the percentage up to 33%. I didn't get that reasoning.

- There should definitely be shooting fouls for running into shooters, great point there, i've always felt that way.

- I like how you mentioned the defensive give and take. I feel contested shots and the mid-range game are heavily effected by the backwards implementation of on-ball defense currently in 2k. The game rewards defenders for getting far too close with bumping animations, Mario runs and by forcing hesitations on the ball-handler.
In addition, turning, planting and their effects on elevation when contesting shots aren't done well, so as a result created space isnt as “true” as it is in real life. For example Look at the way Hibbert moved when trying to contain McCollum off the pick and roll in your gif and how 2k represents that and you will see a stark contrast. 2k still has warping, sliding, defenders going forward rather than giving ground and an over-use of their high-speed, crab-shuffle defensive movement rather than proper foot-work. All these advantages afforded to the defense lead to the over use of the Limit Perimeter IMO.

# 11 Oldhead80 @ 01/30/16 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2_headedmonster


	Great write up man. Enjoyed the read. -One thing i found odd, is when you talked about the contested shots you mentioned how the shots go in at a 30% clip, maybe less above the arch ( sub 30%), then rounded the percentage up to 33%. I didn't get that reasoning. - There should definitely be shooting fouls for running into shooters, great point there, i've always felt that way. - I like how you mentioned the defensive give and take. I feel contested shots and the mid-range game are heavily effected by the backwards implementation of on-ball defense currently in 2k. The game rewards defenders for getting far too close with bumping animations, Mario runs and by forcing hesitations on the ball-handler. In addition, turning, planting and their effects on elevation when contesting shots aren't done well, so as a result created space isnt as �true� as it is in real life. For example Look at the way Hibbert moved when trying to contain McCollum off the pick and roll in your gif and how 2k represents that and you will see a stark contrast. 2k still has warping, sliding, defenders going forward rather than giving ground and an over-use of their high-speed, crab-shuffle defensive movement rather than proper foot-work. All these advantages afforded to the defense lead to the over use of the Limit Perimeter IMO.

One of the big reasons why the footwork and overall defensive posture on defense needs to be completely redone. This hunchback, crouched posture with big steps not only looks ridiculous but it's not a representation of the movement and quick footwork NBA players use on defense.

# 12 Baebae32 @ 01/30/16 10:14 AM

Exactly. Defender in 2K arent capable of the short backwards strides necessary to contain the ball so they have to overdo the bumping (which is a foul every single time in the NBA)

# 13 Nevertheles109 @ 01/30/16 10:42 AM

Well written, Chase. I'll partake

Community Question: If the shot in the GIF above went in one out of three times in NBA 2K (assuming you’re using a viable 3-point shooter), would you be okay with it?

I'm okay with it IF the user is running an set offense (aka a play from playbook, freelance offense, utilizing proper spacing within the natural flow of his offense ect.) I'm not okay with it if he just choosing to shoot that shot and I see it coming a mile away. I do agree with some of your assessment regarding hand up defense though but if Kobe was closer and had a hand in his face, that defense is effective in real life depending on the proximity. 2K needs to simulate the distance on hands up defense, especially mid-range as some people are barely effected with a slight contest in the mid-range area (Aldridge, Lebron, Melo, Kawhi, Dirk, Kobe back in the day, ect.)

Community Question: With that in mind, do you think you come anywhere close to a third of your shots coming from mid-range in your average NBA 2K game?

Yes. But I run a lot of plays to get my shots. I think 2K did a fine job of simulating the mid-range game upon release but the masses complained, and slowly but surely we have a slightly different game with the mid-range game being a lost art again. Even so, the contested mid-range needs to go in more. Even upon release the hand-up contest from mid was too effective (Aka pivot, face-up, jab-step and shoot is almost non-existent) when some players are very good from the elbow in those situations.

Community Question: Would you like to see more stepback jumpers and leaning jumpers end in successful makes?

Yes and no. For the rare specimens aka Steph, Harden, Lillard, Kyrie ect. It should be a LITTLE more effective but for most players it is fine where it remains. They patched stepbacks and leaning jumpers making them a little more effective and it was a welcome change... Imagine if you had Kyle Korver iso on you and pull a step-back three? That's where that rabbit hole would lead us to; Players not playing to their true strengths and users abusing attributes.

Community Question: Do you think there’s an A-minus to D-minus difference in these shots just because Steph is leaning in one, while sprinting and coming to a stop in the other?

A- to C+ difference, in my opinion. The shot grade was drastically lower because of what you stated but for such an elite moving three-point shooter, arguably the best ever as it stands, it shouldn't be that drastic. For anyone else, hell yeah. But at this point Steph almost needs his own unique shot grades which would cause trillions of cheese moments with the right user playing with him.

----------------------------------------------

My tangent for you to ponder Chase. The video you posted along your first post in this thread showed a stationary three by Steph. Yes, we all know he's an assassin from three but in my opinion there's always a rhythm or flow to most of the three's he shoots in real life. If you are simply pressing a button with no rhythm, timing or concept of that little bit of space you need in real life, do you think that shot should go in?

The reason I ask is because in my opinion 2K does a pretty good job of rewarding those mechanics I mentioned above as long as you create a bit of space, run a good play and of course time the top of the release correctly. I've made crazy contested shots against my friends and they try the same without any rhyme or reason behind their shots and it's damn near an air-ball. Similar shots but vastly different methods to our madness yields very different results.

Contested shots do need work but if its more or less just tapping a button because the percentage indicates that shot goes in one out of three times, what are we really get ourselves into? If you got the shot the right way by all means let the percentages play their part. If not, in my opinion, ignorant basketball should never be rewarded, regardless of the percentages.

# 14 hanzsomehanz @ 01/30/16 03:03 PM

I clanked a wide open green corner 3 in Park last night 😔

Tough to swallow but "it happens". Whole squad was clanking but opposing team was lit making wild contact and contest shots.

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# 15 hanzsomehanz @ 01/30/16 03:06 PM

I clanked a wide open green corner 3 in Park last night 😔

Tough to swallow but "it happens". Whole squad was clanking but opposing team was lit making wild contact and contest shots.

I also experienced that ugly event where a defender jumps and lands on you - no foul is called and the salt in the wound: you also lose the ball due to the live ball collisions system! 😔

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# 16 ChaseB @ 01/30/16 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ffaacc03


	First of all, yet another excellent article ... 1. That is too much of a penalty considering Steph is among the above average moving shooters. However this should still be considered by the game on a player to player base as there are players that are good when set and others that are good when dont, a few are good at both. 2. The same as above, depends on the player, but yes ... then again, the still prevalent left, right, left, right, shoot tactic would be even more relevant, as relevant as it was before 16. 3. Attempts wise no, at least not when playing vs other hums, vs the AI maybe, but may venture to also say no. 4. 3 out of 10 times, yes, but as the other cases, depending on a player to player base. There are players that can knock contested shots more often than others and those I would like them to do so a bit more often than those who dont. Then again, as you have described in your article, these situations arent on an island, arent isolated and are interwinded, related to others, and if altered my also alter the landscape of the game, all should be accounted to see the full scope of any alteration (open/contested shots, set/moving shots, onball d, close outs, fouls, etc). This type of feedback/articles go a long way into providing valuable info to the devs, here is to hope for further refinements to a great game. P.S: Hopefully we (the users) are given even more tools to finetune (edit) the gameplay on a individual/team base level (thinking on hotspots, hotzones, moving shots, etc).

I think the big thing you say in most of these responses, and what I could have said even more in the article, is that yes all this depends on the player. As the developers more and more try to make each player unique, it then cascades and leads to talking about a lot of what I have in both these articles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoFri


	absolutely agree with this writeup. this stmt is just so well made, "but if we want �sim-oriented� games, we also have to accept that "perfect" defense can still be trumped at times." the shooting % having one out of 3 with "fake" contest by defenders is fine imo. for real fake contest, if i can propose using the jump button, should lower the success rate. why? its a choice to make. when playing defense irl, i pick my poise whether to jump to try blocking the shot or just raise my hand. in video gaming if i choose to jump contest bcos i want to play better defense, then i need to be mentally prepared for jump ball fakes foul. i need to be smarter when playing defense. having hand raise using the right stick or like what u illustrated running towards the shooter should have less effect to alter the success rate of making that shot.

Just to be clear on what I was saying (if it wasn't already), I'm not saying the turbo jump contest should be removed from the game. I just think the distance covered is too extreme and causes issues both with contesting shots and chasing down folks in odd scenarios.

Yes, it's perfectly reasonable -- in a vacuum -- to say you should be able to run and jump to contest or just hold your hand up. However, at certain angles if you run and jump you're going to plow into the shooter no matter what.

# 17 ChaseB @ 01/30/16 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2_headedmonster


	Great write up man. Enjoyed the read. -One thing i found odd, is when you talked about the contested shots you mentioned how the shots go in at a 30% clip, maybe less above the arch ( sub 30%), then rounded the percentage up to 33%. I didn't get that reasoning.

Yeah that's my bad and you should find it odd I rounded up to 33 percent. I rounded up because 33 percent just felt more understandable to a person reading (because it's just about 1 in 3) than saying 29 percent -- but I could have just said 30 percent as the rounded number because 3 out of 10 is also understandable. I also probably should have used 30 percent because that's what the number was for "tight" coverage based on a full year of stats from the 2013-14 season.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2_headedmonster


	- I like how you mentioned the defensive give and take. I feel contested shots and the mid-range game are heavily effected by the backwards implementation of on-ball defense currently in 2k. The game rewards defenders for getting far too close with bumping animations, Mario runs and by forcing hesitations on the ball-handler. In addition, turning, planting and their effects on elevation when contesting shots aren't done well, so as a result created space isnt as �true� as it is in real life. For example Look at the way Hibbert moved when trying to contain McCollum off the pick and roll in your gif and how 2k represents that and you will see a stark contrast. 2k still has warping, sliding, defenders going forward rather than giving ground and an over-use of their high-speed, crab-shuffle defensive movement rather than proper foot-work. All these advantages afforded to the defense lead to the over use of the Limit Perimeter IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oldhead80


	One of the big reasons why the footwork and overall defensive posture on defense needs to be completely redone. This hunchback, crouched posture with big steps not only looks ridiculous but it's not a representation of the movement and quick footwork NBA players use on defense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baebae32


	Exactly. Defender in 2K arent capable of the short backwards strides necessary to contain the ball so they have to overdo the bumping (which is a foul every single time in the NBA)

I think y'all all have valid points here and it's the basis for a deeper discussion (that's probably already occurred at various points). It's a bit trickier to show via numbers and stuff like I did with these articles, but it's something I'm interested in looking at more now for sure.

# 18 dema @ 01/30/16 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dema


	I think the reason they currently can't have contested jumpers going in at a realistic percentage is that it would be too easy to just jack them up all game and still have a decent offence. This is because what 2k doesn't really simulate is the footwork of a player before his shot. That means coming off screens, pulling up for shots off the dribble etc, Included in that equation should be the pass that a player gets as well, what angle his receiving it at and how accurate is it. In the NBA you can see there are some players who are much better at getting into their shot in various situations that other players would probably put up an awkward shot. So what i'm saying pretty much is the bit before the actual shot isn't simulated well. (probably because it would hard for 2k to do) But making that pre-shot part of the game skill based on the in game player and the user would make hitting a contested jumper seem less "unrealistic", and it can't just be under the hood calculations, the game has to show it. Because then the player knows "oh, he got that in because he set his feet right, the pass was straight to his chest and he followed through and released above the defender".

I take that back, after playing today and yesterday and really paying attention to it, passing and footwork does show up in effecting the shot, it is more the defensive side of the game as some of you guys have been saying that causes this issue with contested shots, a misrepresentation of what good defence is, particularly against good shooters. Just being there by the time the shot goes up makes little difference in reality but in 2k it does, the defender being in a contesting position when the offence has caught the ball should be considered great defence on a good shooter. Then when the offence puts the ball to the floor the defence steps back and the momentum and footwork of both players comes into play.

# 19 JoFri @ 01/30/16 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaseB


	Yes, it's perfectly reasonable -- in a vacuum -- to say you should be able to run and jump to contest or just hold your hand up. However, at certain angles if you run and jump you're going to plow into the shooter no matter what.

absolutely, as this is happening irl too.

# 20 tril @ 01/31/16 05:44 PM

good article. I think part of the problem is that the ratings arent fleshed out enough.
it seems as though the same ratings grade applies for all players across the board.
shooting should go beyond mastering a green release.
seriously, how does a step back effect the overall shooter rating. are they taking the step back rating and just giving it a percentage, or are they factoring the defender rating, and also, say the handle rating and the standing shot rating.

to get more accurate shot percentages you would literally have to factor every shooting attribute and defender rating into the said shot.
if they used all the variables available and then some, you probably wouldnt need a consistency rating. but if they are adding consistency ratings then their should be a consistency rating for each individual shot type. not the overall.

the quest is to get accurate portrayal in overall game-play. there are enough ratings to make the risk.reward feature in the game more fulfilling.

the standing corner 3 for instance. some shooters can just catch and shoot and make it. While other have a better percentage getting a corner three by dribbling the ball first, then shooting. Now if you factor a closing defender to this equation, you could get more randomness.
again I dont know how complex 2ks codes are, so these could exists.

as far as the turbo defender, its simple. once the defender is out of position, or over commits on defense, the offensive ai should break out of set offense and drive to the hoop or take the open shot. An aggressive offensive player always takes what the defnse gives them. This isnt properly reflected in the game-play. There are more than enough times when the user defender gets lost and the AI controlled player does not take advantage.
the end result to this, would most likely be that users would be forced to play more controlled and sim style defense.
this should be applicable across the board. A reach in foul should always be a reach in, a blocking foul should always be a blocking foul.
On offense, a player that turbos throughout the game should be equivalent to player lowering their shoulder and driving, which then should increase the chances of it being an offensive foul.

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NBA 2K16: The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)