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NBA 2K16: The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)
In the first part of this feature I wrote a lot about how often NBA teams are making each type of contested shot in comparison to NBA 2K. The feedback has been great both on here and elsewhere, and today I want to talk more about the specifics of these contested shots.
 
What that means is plenty more GIFs, and also a look at some shot types (some contested, some uncontested) in NBA 2K and how they relate to the NBA. In addition, I want to talk more about contested shots in terms of the disconnect between video games and the actual NBA. 
 
All in all, this will be slightly less nerdy and a little more philosophical than part one. However, let me make one thing clear before the jump: Contested shots are a fact of NBA life. 
 
Great, now let me dive in here. 
 

The Catch and Shoot 3-Ball

 
In NBA terms, the open catch-and-shoot 3-ball is your gold medal in terms of jumpers. Catching and immediately shooting gives you the best percentage of making a shot in the NBA. The catch-and-hold jumper and the pull-up jumper are simply not as effective (unless your name is Dirk).
 
Of course, you can’t always get open catch-and-shoot shots from deep. Looking at the GIF above, the coverage by Kobe Bryant on Robert Covington would equate to “tight” coverage as Kobe’s body is within 2-4 feet of Covington on the shot. Regardless, Covington immediately rises up and scores. In NBA terms, that shot goes in just about 30 percent of the time this season. With above the break 3s, that percentage probably dips a bit more, but the point is the shot goes in roughly one out of three times.
 
Community Question: If the shot in the GIF above went in one out of three times in NBA 2K (assuming you’re using a viable 3-point shooter), would you be okay with it? 
 
I know 2K Pro-Am is a different world, and badges change things and so on, but as I said in part one, I don’t believe that Covington shot goes in one out of three times in Play Now Online or just custom online matches with friends. 
 
In addition, the take I get from reading feedback is that a large portion of people would not be okay with shots like Covington's going in roughly 33 percent of the time. I think that comes back to people feeling like there’s no inherent “skill” involved in just passing the ball and rising up to shoot. In NBA terms, making a contested shot takes skill as not everyone can do it at the same rate (if you look at Covington, he’s actually elite in this category). However, in a video game a contested shot is made via a simple button press or flick of the shot stick. 
 
With this in mind, it’s also probably a reason so many people use the “limit perimeter shots” points of emphasis. Many folks who play this game hate giving up 3s. They would rather give up the drive and dunk much of the time. Maybe that’s because three points is worth more than two, maybe it’s because they can’t control all five defenders at once and feel like the AI should ignore team defense for individual defense, or maybe it’s because they feel getting to the rim takes more skill. Whatever the case may be, one of the most common complaints you see on here is about contested shots (whether by the AI or humans) going in too often. I feel I’ve tried to show my work in terms of explaining how that’s probably not the case in many environments, but here we are.   
 
That being said, as I move on here I’ll say it again: Contested shots are a fact of NBA life. 

The Mid-Range

 
We are living in the era of the 3-ball revolution. We're also seeing the "extra pass" revolution take hold. There’s no denying it, and many teams truly are looking for two things from players now on offense: an ability to be an elite passer for your position, and an ability to hit a 3-ball.
 
The Warriors are not of this world right now so it's hard using them as the example, but I can still point to some of their players as examples. Green is an above-average passer for his position. Curry is an above-average passer for his position. Iguodala is an above-average passer for his position. Bogut is an above-average passer for his position. Beyond that, the Spurs won a championship two years ago with crisp ball movement and an ability to stick open shots from deep.   
And yet, even with everything we now know about ball movement and 3-pointers, it’s still almost a given that at least a third of a team's shots (at minimum) are going to come from mid-range in an average NBA game. 
 
We know what the data says; we know the mid-range shot is the least efficient shot. Nevertheless, we also see teams like the Spurs using this fact to their advantage by shooting a great percentage from mid-range. The Spurs exploit the fact that teams now run you off the 3-point line, but also try to give you open or semi-contested mid-range shots rather than runs to the rim.
 
Community Question: With that in mind, do you think you come anywhere close to a third of your shots coming from mid-range in your average NBA 2K game?
 
On a personal level, in most online games I don't think I'm seeing either team take a third of their shots from mid-range. Most folks are the Houston Rockets in NBA 2K16. It’s 3-point shots or layups/dunks. 
 
In a way, it makes sense. Dunks are fun; 3-point shots are fun. Mid-range shots are not so fun. And don’t get me wrong, every time down the court in a real NBA game, a head coach would love to get either a dunk or open 3-point shot. However, that’s not reality. 
 
This is reality:
 
 
But how much faith do you have in that leaning shot above by McCollum going in somewhat consistently in NBA 2K right now? I know I don’t have much faith in it, so why take it? 

The Defensive Give And Take

 
This leads me to my first point about looking more at what role defense plays in all this. A lot of people play NBA 2K like individual defense and team defense don’t co-exist. If you’re playing tight on your man 30 feet from the basket, you’re endangering your team defense. In the same vein, pressing turbo and jumping at a shooter as he pump fakes (the "fly-by" in basketball terms) will also leave your team defense exposed.
 
Those are two obvious examples of just bad team defense, but there's also a sneakier way to play "dirty" defense in NBA 2K. You see in the GIF above that I sprint at Klay Thompson and sprint under him as he shoots. This sets off a bump/contest shot animation where really I should just be called for a foul. Even though I didn’t jump, I sprinted under Klay as he shot. I didn’t give Klay a chance to land. I also lowered Klay's ability to hit that shot coming off the pin-down screen.
 
I’m not advocating for the disappearance of these under duress shot animations, and I’m not saying you shouldn’t be able to sprint at a shooter, but there needs to be a semblance of common sense. In other words, you should not be able to turbo and run directly into the body of the shooter just because you're not jumping.
 
Returning to the fly-by, it's the most obvious and extreme example of bad defense that can sometimes work out in NBA 2K.
 
 
Now it's not like it’s very hard to get a shooting foul here (as I'll show below), but the situation in the GIF above just has to be a foul all the time. The turbo jump is a detriment to the game, and it just looks ridiculous.
 
Even looking past this one situation, the turbo jump is why chasedown blocks can still be silly at times (that and overly long dunk animations in situations where they should be more standard), and it’s why you still see players make up insane amounts of space to close in on shooters to get blocks.
 
That being said, you can use this aggression to your advantage as well:
 
 
Again, it’s not so much that the turbo jump on defense is overpowered, it’s just that it should never really be a viable option. It’s something you do more to just show a coach in real life you “tried” to stop the shooter from being wide open. It’s the “fake hustle” defense. Regardless, this type of defense shouldn’t really impact the grade of your shot or do much more than cause a foul if you launch too close to the shooter.  

Clearing Space

 
Coming back to offense now, as I’ve said the catch and shoot is the best type of long-range shot. However, I also need to say it really feels like the stepback jumper is cool again. And when I watch a basketball game, it seems like many NBA wings have to be able to hit a little bit of a stepback shot. It’s one of the easiest ways to clear space, and it’s hard to consistently challenge the shot in a one-on-one environment.
 
That being said, it feels like 2K does not want you to take these shots. In the GIF above -- and I know grades are not the best way to judge these things but go with me here -- I get a D-minus grade on what feels like a semi-open baseline shot with Steph Curry. As always, I’m not saying all these shots should go in, but if we want to push the game towards a more balanced shot distribution, then moves like the stepback have to feel a bit more dangerous. Otherwise, you'll just see more behind the back moves, spins and crossovers as folks try to get to the rack. 
 
Community Question: Would you like to see more stepback jumpers and leaning jumpers end in successful makes?

The Open Shot

 
Everybody is working for the shot above. The open corner 3 should probably be framed in the lobby of every NBA office. It’s beautiful. It’s magical. It’s efficient. 
 
It’s also not going in every time. Missing open shots infuriates some people, but it’s going to happen y’all. I'm sorry to have to break it to you, but even the corner 3 is only going in about 40 percent of the time. 
 
I know you may have worked hard to get that shot, or made the perfect drive and kick pass, but even at 22 feet, the corner 3 is still not a gimme.   

The Transition 3-Pointer

The discussion about the transition 3-pointer comes with some caveats. I’m not saying NBA 2K doesn’t need to work on its transition defense, because boy do the developers have to work on the transition defense. The fact that you know you’re pretty much going to have to deal with being outgunned on a fast break if you miss the back-end of a pair of free throws is not a good look. The fact that you'll sometimes see four defenders rush back to the paint even though there are guys on the perimeter that should be marked in transition is not a good look. The fact that you'll see defenders go into jog-back animations after a made basket even though the offense is already coming back at them is not a good look.
 
But here’s the thing, there’s a reason Seven Seconds Or Less makes sense. The best time to destroy a defense is before it’s set. Transition points per possession destroys points per possession in the halfcourt.
 
I get just as mad as others do when people just turbo up the court and drain a shot or attack the rack because, much like making contested shots, “it takes no video game skill” to pull it off. 
 
That being said, it would be a shame if it was incredibly hard to score in transition. Nobody wants to see the Tony Parker transition 3-ball being shot all game (especially Popovich), and 2K does need to work on matching up in transition and making defenders eschew some animations after made baskets, but it’s not unfair to say this stuff happens in NBA games. 
 
 
Not every player has the okay to do Steph stuff, but even if you ignore the Lillards of the world who also do this, it’s not like Westbrook and Wall aren’t doing the same thing, just instead they’re attacking the rack or immediately setting someone up for an open jumper -- even after made baskets.
 
But yo, let me be clear, I'm still turning off my console if the shot below ever goes in during a game of NBA 2K
 

Leaning Shot

Before getting to my final point, I want to make a quick note here to show two GIFs and then ask a question that relates to transition 3-pointers and stepback/leaning shots.
 
Here are the two GIFs:
 
 
 
Community Question: Do you think there’s an A-minus to D-minus difference in these shots just because Steph is leaning in one, while sprinting and coming to a stop in the other?  

The Defensive Helplessness

Finally, I want to end this by once more talking about the defense. I don’t want a user on defense to feel helpless and feel like the GIF above is something that’s constantly happening to them. Running back and forth while holding turbo and then firing up a shot when the contest range is minimal should never really be an option -- even if I could totally see real Steph doing this just for kicks.
 
A lot of what I’m talking about here is about making choices. As video game players, we sometimes have a problem accepting that we can’t take away everything -- even though we know that's true about the real NBA. If you want to hug up on everybody, then backdoors and layups are going to occur. If you want to prevent layups, then you're going to have to give up some open mid-range shots and 3s. If you don't want to get destroyed by a faster player on a dribble drive, then he's going to get chances to do stepbacks and hit mid-range shots.
 
In other words, you shouldn’t be able to play five or six feet off the ball handler to prevent a drive, and yet still force D-plus and C-minus grades on shots when a player pulls up. Everything is about balance, so a lot of what I’ve talked about here is about accepting that.
 
Remember: Contested shots are a fact of NBA life. Embrace that concept and accept it on some level. There’s only so many elevator sets or double screens that will get you open during a game. There’s only so many times you can drive and kick on a possession before you have to shoot. 
 
And if you play perfect defense, players are still going to hit some contested shots. Don’t get mad about that or say the game is cheating you when it happens. It’s why the NBA is a make or miss league, and it’s why as a fan it can be so fun and frustrating to watch a NBA game play out. 
 
We’ve been programmed as video game players to think, “if I do everything right, I should be rewarded” because that’s how game mechanics generally have to work to be successful. I’m not here to dispute that, but if we want “sim-oriented” games, we also have to accept that "perfect" defense can still be trumped at times.

NBA 2K16 Videos
Member Comments
# 1 ChaseB @ 01/29/16 12:01 PM
If you folks feel like answering any of them, I ask a bunch of questions within the feature as well.
 
# 2 ataman5 @ 01/29/16 02:31 PM
Chase man!! I loved and co-sign every point you wanted make in this read just as the first part!

I can't think of a game w/o balancing on its own on every sequences there are two parts risk/reward. As 2j devs keep developping the branches from what i mean is the branch that step-backs are all natural on both end of the floors then we'll see much more Curry being Curry also with user input quality.

It's a very good read and just shows us how many big strides 2k16 have made and we're here to discuss these..

I'll try answering your questions later..



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
# 3 shayellis @ 01/29/16 03:03 PM
Simply amazing article. Very clear and concise and showcases the problems 2k has with shooting compared to real life. I really hope the devs are looking and taking this all into account. A couple of points:

1. Youre correct that the turbo contest without jumping while a player is shooting, still needs to be a foul, and shouldnt carry the same weight as contesting with your hands up.

2. those fall on block animations need to be fouls every time.

3. On the steph curry A- vs D- grade, i dont think that deserves a drop that significant.
I also think the grading system on decent shots like a face up mid range is too heavily penalized. For instance if i face up with AD and shoot a midrange, no matter the contest, im basically guranteed a d- rating, its absurd
 
# 4 hanzsomehanz @ 01/29/16 03:40 PM
Moving shots to create space deserve C or better grades depending on which move you selected.

To me this is the whole point of being a shot creator and having the badge but it's penalized very harshly to the point users shy away from it. On the contrary, CPU seems to be graced with more favorable outcomes on these shot selections regardless of the characters rating in ability.

I definitely would like to see more mid range shots go. I also will be more sympathetic of my drive and kick wide open corner 3s that clank. 😔

Overall, all your points resonate with me in the OP. I'm continuing to already be more tolerable of the wtf moments because they do occur. As you poignantly pointed out: contested makes are a lively part of the NBA. *Perfect defense does not always generate perfect outcomes for the defense.


Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk
 
# 5 ffaacc03 @ 01/29/16 04:22 PM
First of all, yet another excellent article ...

Quote:
1. Community Question: Do you think there’s an A-minus to D-minus difference in these shots just because Steph is leaning in one, while sprinting and coming to a stop in the other?

2. Community Question: Would you like to see more stepback jumpers and leaning jumpers end in successful makes?

3. Community Question: With that in mind, do you think you come anywhere close to a third of your shots coming from mid-range in your average NBA 2K game?

4. Community Question: If the shot in the GIF above went in one out of three times in NBA 2K (assuming you’re using a viable 3-point shooter), would you be okay with it?
1. That is too much of a penalty considering Steph is among the above average moving shooters. However this should still be considered by the game on a player to player base as there are players that are good when set and others that are good when dont, a few are good at both.

2. The same as above, depends on the player, but yes ... then again, the still prevalent left, right, left, right, shoot tactic would be even more relevant, as relevant as it was before 16.

3. Attempts wise no, at least not when playing vs other hums, vs the AI maybe, but may venture to also say no.

4. 3 out of 10 times, yes, but as the other cases, depending on a player to player base. There are players that can knock contested shots more often than others and those I would like them to do so a bit more often than those who dont.

Then again, as you have described in your article, these situations arent on an island, arent isolated and are interwinded, related to others, and if altered my also alter the landscape of the game, all should be accounted to see the full scope of any alteration (open/contested shots, set/moving shots, onball d, close outs, fouls, etc). This type of feedback/articles go a long way into providing valuable info to the devs, here is to hope for further refinements to a great game.

P.S:
Hopefully we (the users) are given even more tools to finetune (edit) the gameplay on a individual/team base level (thinking on hotspots, hotzones, moving shots, etc).
 
# 6 ChaseB @ 01/29/16 05:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shayellis
3. On the steph curry A- vs D- grade, i dont think that deserves a drop that significant.
I also think the grading system on decent shots like a face up mid range is too heavily penalized. For instance if i face up with AD and shoot a midrange, no matter the contest, im basically guranteed a d- rating, its absurd
Thanks for the kind words shay.

As to this final point, I tend to agree with this as well, though this is a bit of a unique issue. With guys like Dirk or something, yeah they don't really have shots that can be blocked or contested in a perfect way. I also think, as I talk about a bit in the article, people would rather body someone like AD even at mid-range and force the drive rather than give a little space for a jump shot. It feels easier to come up on someone and stop them rather than give room a lot of the time -- hand checking/bodying up still feels like it's a bit of a thing at times in 2K when it's really not ever kosher anymore in NBA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanzsomehanz
Overall, all your points resonate with me in the OP. I'm continuing to already be more tolerable of the wtf moments because they do occur. As you poignantly pointed out: contested makes are a lively part of the NBA. *Perfect defense does not always generate perfect outcomes for the defense.
Wishing I would have stolen this line already

Quote:
Originally Posted by A6_Foul_Out
This is great but in the meta game, this would ruin the game.

Top level players Shoot Greens and dunks. Allowing them a higher percentage on shots that aren't green would make this problem even worse.

The 'green release' mechanic needs to be heavily reworked. There's no reason that 97% of corner threes should go in for top players. Mid-ranges should not be 97% either. Top players get greens most times.
Are you saying in something like Pro-Am this is the expected outcome on these shot types, or even just Play Now Online "top level" players wind up with these results? I didn't talk about the green releases and such much here, but in part one I talked about how nobody wants the patch 4 green-release stuff to come back etc. Either way, I've never been crazy about "perfect" releases and all that. I understand it exists to add to the meta-game of adding "skill" to each shot, but I've felt more inclined to just worry about making sure you mostly release a shot at "about" the right time. It's a video game mechanic more than a basketball mechanic to me, but again, I get why it exists. But of course, that also means I would be open to the "release" system being tweaked.
 
# 7 dema @ 01/29/16 05:42 PM
I think the reason they currently can't have contested jumpers going in at a realistic percentage is that it would be too easy to just jack them up all game and still have a decent offence. This is because what 2k doesn't really simulate is the footwork of a player before his shot. That means coming off screens, pulling up for shots off the dribble etc, Included in that equation should be the pass that a player gets as well, what angle his receiving it at and how accurate is it. In the NBA you can see there are some players who are much better at getting into their shot in various situations that other players would probably put up an awkward shot.
So what i'm saying pretty much is the bit before the actual shot isn't simulated well. (probably because it would hard for 2k to do) But making that pre-shot part of the game skill based on the in game player and the user would make hitting a contested jumper seem less "unrealistic", and it can't just be under the hood calculations, the game has to show it. Because then the player knows "oh, he got that in because he set his feet right, the pass was straight to his chest and he followed through and released above the defender".
 
# 8 dema @ 01/29/16 07:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by A6_Foul_Out
This is what dimer and pass accuracy stats are supposed to be good for.
Yeh but i think often that stuff happens without any visual representation, if you've got a really bad passer you get the tough catch animation but otherwise its pretty hard to tell that it was good pass that let the guy get straight into his shot. Also footwork still isn't really apart of the game shooting wise.
 
# 9 JoFri @ 01/29/16 09:42 PM
absolutely agree with this writeup. this stmt is just so well made, "but if we want “sim-oriented” games, we also have to accept that "perfect" defense can still be trumped at times." the shooting % having one out of 3 with "fake" contest by defenders is fine imo. for real fake contest, if i can propose using the jump button, should lower the success rate. why? its a choice to make. when playing defense irl, i pick my poise whether to jump to try blocking the shot or just raise my hand. in video gaming if i choose to jump contest bcos i want to play better defense, then i need to be mentally prepared for jump ball fakes foul. i need to be smarter when playing defense. having hand raise using the right stick or like what u illustrated running towards the shooter should have less effect to alter the success rate of making that shot.
 
# 10 2_headedmonster @ 01/30/16 12:42 AM
Great write up man. Enjoyed the read.

-One thing i found odd, is when you talked about the contested shots you mentioned how the shots go in at a 30% clip, maybe less above the arch ( sub 30%), then rounded the percentage up to 33%. I didn't get that reasoning.

- There should definitely be shooting fouls for running into shooters, great point there, i've always felt that way.

- I like how you mentioned the defensive give and take. I feel contested shots and the mid-range game are heavily effected by the backwards implementation of on-ball defense currently in 2k. The game rewards defenders for getting far too close with bumping animations, Mario runs and by forcing hesitations on the ball-handler.
In addition, turning, planting and their effects on elevation when contesting shots aren't done well, so as a result created space isnt as “true” as it is in real life. For example Look at the way Hibbert moved when trying to contain McCollum off the pick and roll in your gif and how 2k represents that and you will see a stark contrast. 2k still has warping, sliding, defenders going forward rather than giving ground and an over-use of their high-speed, crab-shuffle defensive movement rather than proper foot-work. All these advantages afforded to the defense lead to the over use of the Limit Perimeter IMO.
 
# 11 Oldhead80 @ 01/30/16 01:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2_headedmonster
Great write up man. Enjoyed the read.

-One thing i found odd, is when you talked about the contested shots you mentioned how the shots go in at a 30% clip, maybe less above the arch ( sub 30%), then rounded the percentage up to 33%. I didn't get that reasoning.

- There should definitely be shooting fouls for running into shooters, great point there, i've always felt that way.

- I like how you mentioned the defensive give and take. I feel contested shots and the mid-range game are heavily effected by the backwards implementation of on-ball defense currently in 2k. The game rewards defenders for getting far too close with bumping animations, Mario runs and by forcing hesitations on the ball-handler.
In addition, turning, planting and their effects on elevation when contesting shots aren't done well, so as a result created space isnt as “true” as it is in real life. For example Look at the way Hibbert moved when trying to contain McCollum off the pick and roll in your gif and how 2k represents that and you will see a stark contrast. 2k still has warping, sliding, defenders going forward rather than giving ground and an over-use of their high-speed, crab-shuffle defensive movement rather than proper foot-work. All these advantages afforded to the defense lead to the over use of the Limit Perimeter IMO.
One of the big reasons why the footwork and overall defensive posture on defense needs to be completely redone. This hunchback, crouched posture with big steps not only looks ridiculous but it's not a representation of the movement and quick footwork NBA players use on defense.
 
# 12 Baebae32 @ 01/30/16 09:14 AM
Exactly. Defender in 2K arent capable of the short backwards strides necessary to contain the ball so they have to overdo the bumping (which is a foul every single time in the NBA)
 
# 13 Nevertheles109 @ 01/30/16 09:42 AM
Well written, Chase. I'll partake

Community Question: If the shot in the GIF above went in one out of three times in NBA 2K (assuming you’re using a viable 3-point shooter), would you be okay with it?


I'm okay with it IF the user is running an set offense (aka a play from playbook, freelance offense, utilizing proper spacing within the natural flow of his offense ect.) I'm not okay with it if he just choosing to shoot that shot and I see it coming a mile away. I do agree with some of your assessment regarding hand up defense though but if Kobe was closer and had a hand in his face, that defense is effective in real life depending on the proximity. 2K needs to simulate the distance on hands up defense, especially mid-range as some people are barely effected with a slight contest in the mid-range area (Aldridge, Lebron, Melo, Kawhi, Dirk, Kobe back in the day, ect.)


Community Question: With that in mind, do you think you come anywhere close to a third of your shots coming from mid-range in your average NBA 2K game?

Yes. But I run a lot of plays to get my shots. I think 2K did a fine job of simulating the mid-range game upon release but the masses complained, and slowly but surely we have a slightly different game with the mid-range game being a lost art again. Even so, the contested mid-range needs to go in more. Even upon release the hand-up contest from mid was too effective (Aka pivot, face-up, jab-step and shoot is almost non-existent) when some players are very good from the elbow in those situations.

Community Question: Would you like to see more stepback jumpers and leaning jumpers end in successful makes?

Yes and no. For the rare specimens aka Steph, Harden, Lillard, Kyrie ect. It should be a LITTLE more effective but for most players it is fine where it remains. They patched stepbacks and leaning jumpers making them a little more effective and it was a welcome change... Imagine if you had Kyle Korver iso on you and pull a step-back three? That's where that rabbit hole would lead us to; Players not playing to their true strengths and users abusing attributes.

Community Question: Do you think there’s an A-minus to D-minus difference in these shots just because Steph is leaning in one, while sprinting and coming to a stop in the other?


A- to C+ difference, in my opinion. The shot grade was drastically lower because of what you stated but for such an elite moving three-point shooter, arguably the best ever as it stands, it shouldn't be that drastic. For anyone else, hell yeah. But at this point Steph almost needs his own unique shot grades which would cause trillions of cheese moments with the right user playing with him.



----------------------------------------------

My tangent for you to ponder Chase. The video you posted along your first post in this thread showed a stationary three by Steph. Yes, we all know he's an assassin from three but in my opinion there's always a rhythm or flow to most of the three's he shoots in real life. If you are simply pressing a button with no rhythm, timing or concept of that little bit of space you need in real life, do you think that shot should go in?

The reason I ask is because in my opinion 2K does a pretty good job of rewarding those mechanics I mentioned above as long as you create a bit of space, run a good play and of course time the top of the release correctly. I've made crazy contested shots against my friends and they try the same without any rhyme or reason behind their shots and it's damn near an air-ball. Similar shots but vastly different methods to our madness yields very different results.

Contested shots do need work but if its more or less just tapping a button because the percentage indicates that shot goes in one out of three times, what are we really get ourselves into? If you got the shot the right way by all means let the percentages play their part. If not, in my opinion, ignorant basketball should never be rewarded, regardless of the percentages.
 
# 14 hanzsomehanz @ 01/30/16 02:03 PM
I clanked a wide open green corner 3 in Park last night 😔

Tough to swallow but "it happens". Whole squad was clanking but opposing team was lit making wild contact and contest shots.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk
 
# 15 hanzsomehanz @ 01/30/16 02:06 PM
I clanked a wide open green corner 3 in Park last night 😔

Tough to swallow but "it happens". Whole squad was clanking but opposing team was lit making wild contact and contest shots.

I also experienced that ugly event where a defender jumps and lands on you - no foul is called and the salt in the wound: you also lose the ball due to the live ball collisions system! 😔


Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk
 
# 16 ChaseB @ 01/30/16 04:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ffaacc03
First of all, yet another excellent article ...



1. That is too much of a penalty considering Steph is among the above average moving shooters. However this should still be considered by the game on a player to player base as there are players that are good when set and others that are good when dont, a few are good at both.

2. The same as above, depends on the player, but yes ... then again, the still prevalent left, right, left, right, shoot tactic would be even more relevant, as relevant as it was before 16.

3. Attempts wise no, at least not when playing vs other hums, vs the AI maybe, but may venture to also say no.

4. 3 out of 10 times, yes, but as the other cases, depending on a player to player base. There are players that can knock contested shots more often than others and those I would like them to do so a bit more often than those who dont.

Then again, as you have described in your article, these situations arent on an island, arent isolated and are interwinded, related to others, and if altered my also alter the landscape of the game, all should be accounted to see the full scope of any alteration (open/contested shots, set/moving shots, onball d, close outs, fouls, etc). This type of feedback/articles go a long way into providing valuable info to the devs, here is to hope for further refinements to a great game.

P.S:
Hopefully we (the users) are given even more tools to finetune (edit) the gameplay on a individual/team base level (thinking on hotspots, hotzones, moving shots, etc).
I think the big thing you say in most of these responses, and what I could have said even more in the article, is that yes all this depends on the player. As the developers more and more try to make each player unique, it then cascades and leads to talking about a lot of what I have in both these articles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoFri
absolutely agree with this writeup. this stmt is just so well made, "but if we want “sim-oriented” games, we also have to accept that "perfect" defense can still be trumped at times." the shooting % having one out of 3 with "fake" contest by defenders is fine imo. for real fake contest, if i can propose using the jump button, should lower the success rate. why? its a choice to make. when playing defense irl, i pick my poise whether to jump to try blocking the shot or just raise my hand. in video gaming if i choose to jump contest bcos i want to play better defense, then i need to be mentally prepared for jump ball fakes foul. i need to be smarter when playing defense. having hand raise using the right stick or like what u illustrated running towards the shooter should have less effect to alter the success rate of making that shot.
Just to be clear on what I was saying (if it wasn't already), I'm not saying the turbo jump contest should be removed from the game. I just think the distance covered is too extreme and causes issues both with contesting shots and chasing down folks in odd scenarios.

Yes, it's perfectly reasonable -- in a vacuum -- to say you should be able to run and jump to contest or just hold your hand up. However, at certain angles if you run and jump you're going to plow into the shooter no matter what.
 
# 17 ChaseB @ 01/30/16 04:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2_headedmonster
Great write up man. Enjoyed the read.

-One thing i found odd, is when you talked about the contested shots you mentioned how the shots go in at a 30% clip, maybe less above the arch ( sub 30%), then rounded the percentage up to 33%. I didn't get that reasoning.

Yeah that's my bad and you should find it odd I rounded up to 33 percent. I rounded up because 33 percent just felt more understandable to a person reading (because it's just about 1 in 3) than saying 29 percent -- but I could have just said 30 percent as the rounded number because 3 out of 10 is also understandable. I also probably should have used 30 percent because that's what the number was for "tight" coverage based on a full year of stats from the 2013-14 season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2_headedmonster
- I like how you mentioned the defensive give and take. I feel contested shots and the mid-range game are heavily effected by the backwards implementation of on-ball defense currently in 2k. The game rewards defenders for getting far too close with bumping animations, Mario runs and by forcing hesitations on the ball-handler.
In addition, turning, planting and their effects on elevation when contesting shots aren't done well, so as a result created space isnt as “true” as it is in real life. For example Look at the way Hibbert moved when trying to contain McCollum off the pick and roll in your gif and how 2k represents that and you will see a stark contrast. 2k still has warping, sliding, defenders going forward rather than giving ground and an over-use of their high-speed, crab-shuffle defensive movement rather than proper foot-work. All these advantages afforded to the defense lead to the over use of the Limit Perimeter IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhead80
One of the big reasons why the footwork and overall defensive posture on defense needs to be completely redone. This hunchback, crouched posture with big steps not only looks ridiculous but it's not a representation of the movement and quick footwork NBA players use on defense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baebae32
Exactly. Defender in 2K arent capable of the short backwards strides necessary to contain the ball so they have to overdo the bumping (which is a foul every single time in the NBA)
I think y'all all have valid points here and it's the basis for a deeper discussion (that's probably already occurred at various points). It's a bit trickier to show via numbers and stuff like I did with these articles, but it's something I'm interested in looking at more now for sure.
 
# 18 dema @ 01/30/16 07:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dema
I think the reason they currently can't have contested jumpers going in at a realistic percentage is that it would be too easy to just jack them up all game and still have a decent offence. This is because what 2k doesn't really simulate is the footwork of a player before his shot. That means coming off screens, pulling up for shots off the dribble etc, Included in that equation should be the pass that a player gets as well, what angle his receiving it at and how accurate is it. In the NBA you can see there are some players who are much better at getting into their shot in various situations that other players would probably put up an awkward shot.
So what i'm saying pretty much is the bit before the actual shot isn't simulated well. (probably because it would hard for 2k to do) But making that pre-shot part of the game skill based on the in game player and the user would make hitting a contested jumper seem less "unrealistic", and it can't just be under the hood calculations, the game has to show it. Because then the player knows "oh, he got that in because he set his feet right, the pass was straight to his chest and he followed through and released above the defender".
I take that back, after playing today and yesterday and really paying attention to it, passing and footwork does show up in effecting the shot, it is more the defensive side of the game as some of you guys have been saying that causes this issue with contested shots, a misrepresentation of what good defence is, particularly against good shooters. Just being there by the time the shot goes up makes little difference in reality but in 2k it does, the defender being in a contesting position when the offence has caught the ball should be considered great defence on a good shooter. Then when the offence puts the ball to the floor the defence steps back and the momentum and footwork of both players comes into play.
 
# 19 JoFri @ 01/30/16 08:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaseB
Yes, it's perfectly reasonable -- in a vacuum -- to say you should be able to run and jump to contest or just hold your hand up. However, at certain angles if you run and jump you're going to plow into the shooter no matter what.
absolutely, as this is happening irl too.
 
# 20 tril @ 01/31/16 04:44 PM
good article. I think part of the problem is that the ratings arent fleshed out enough.
it seems as though the same ratings grade applies for all players across the board.
shooting should go beyond mastering a green release.
seriously, how does a step back effect the overall shooter rating. are they taking the step back rating and just giving it a percentage, or are they factoring the defender rating, and also, say the handle rating and the standing shot rating.

to get more accurate shot percentages you would literally have to factor every shooting attribute and defender rating into the said shot.
if they used all the variables available and then some, you probably wouldnt need a consistency rating. but if they are adding consistency ratings then their should be a consistency rating for each individual shot type. not the overall.

the quest is to get accurate portrayal in overall game-play. there are enough ratings to make the risk.reward feature in the game more fulfilling.

the standing corner 3 for instance. some shooters can just catch and shoot and make it. While other have a better percentage getting a corner three by dribbling the ball first, then shooting. Now if you factor a closing defender to this equation, you could get more randomness.
again I dont know how complex 2ks codes are, so these could exists.

as far as the turbo defender, its simple. once the defender is out of position, or over commits on defense, the offensive ai should break out of set offense and drive to the hoop or take the open shot. An aggressive offensive player always takes what the defnse gives them. This isnt properly reflected in the game-play. There are more than enough times when the user defender gets lost and the AI controlled player does not take advantage.
the end result to this, would most likely be that users would be forced to play more controlled and sim style defense.
this should be applicable across the board. A reach in foul should always be a reach in, a blocking foul should always be a blocking foul.
On offense, a player that turbos throughout the game should be equivalent to player lowering their shoulder and driving, which then should increase the chances of it being an offensive foul.
 

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