10:26 AM - June 29, 2012 by Steve_OS
Check out some of the new NHL 13 screenshots, featuring dynamic goalies.
NHL 13 arrives in stores on September 11th.
NHL 13 News Post
10:26 AM - June 29, 2012 by Steve_OSCheck out some of the new NHL 13 screenshots, featuring dynamic goalies.
NHL 13 arrives in stores on September 11th.
NHL 13 Videos
Member Comments
I'm totally fine with taking away the RS for further limb control. Any good goalie knows that goaltending is 95% positioning--and the right stick just messed up most goalies, anyways--almost all of the goalies playing this game didn't touch it to start with.
The problem for me, at least, with NHL's goalie mode has been that the defensive and offensive AI is terrible. Seriously--no amount of sliders can make playing goalie fun. In NHL 09 goalie mode was amazingly fun because the sliders actually worked well in goalie mode when tweaked with. But in NHL 10 when they introduced a crapton more sliders, the sliders seem to all be completely ineffective when it comes to goalie mode.
I agree with Rogie about making the leaning feature part of the Left stick, though--that was just dumb, ea. Also, leaning doesn't do anything in real life anyways. Goalies who cheat on things like a 2-on-1 don't cheat by leaning...they cheat by positioning themselves conservatively enough in the crease so that they can get over quickly, usually by SHUFFLING, to stop the incoming one-timer.
So RealmK in the early pages of this thread was complaining about goalie movement not mattering--it 110% matters. If EA fixed goalie movement and positioning the gameplay would be so much better. Anyone who plays or knows anything about hockey knows that goalies have to be the 'best' skaters on the team. This doesn't mean the fastest--but in terms of lateral agility, they need to have the quickest short-distance burst speed. If EA took the mechanics that they're using for the "burst" speed that they've been constantly advertising on their forwards and put it on goalies, cross-creases and whatnot would never happen.
A goalie's ability to read the play and position himself accordingly by using his skating abilities is key to his game. The only thing that EA needs to do to fix goaltending AI is fix those two things--full-ice vision and reactionary skating--to make flawless goaltending.
Furthermore, playing as a goalie in this game will always be terrible as long as we cannot see directly out of the eyes of the human goalie, or at the very least, when necessary see THROUGH the human goalie. I cannot tell you how many times I have made a save, only to give up a rebound and be practically unable to see the puck in time to react to it because my controlled goalie is obstructing my vision.
What EA needs to do to seriously improve human goaltending is the following:
1. Make sliders actually make sense. In no scenario whatsoever should raising the 'pass interception' slider raise shot totals. That's not how sliders are supposed to work. If users for the 4th year in a row are complaining about shot totals, why not make a 'shot frequency' slider? One of the really good things I liked about NHL 2k10 were the sliders. That slider set up was FANTASTIC, and if you fiddled around with it enough you could give yourself an INCREDIBLY realistic set up that was a lot of fun to play. EA has never had that because they waste time with gimmicks such as a dynamic contact physics engine that doesn't even work in the first place.
2. Allow users playing as goalies to see THROUGH the goaltender during select situations to allow them to see and react to loose pucks directly in front of their controlled goalie. This is huge. A crap ton of goals scored on me both offline and online are when the puck is played close into the net, but if I can't see the puck, I can't react. I've played goalie all of my life--it is really not that hard to stop a one-timer if you're positioned deep enough in your net. But if you can't track the one-time pass all the way from the sender to the receiver, you lose your ability to position yourself according to the incoming shot, and will consistently allow goals.
3. Allow users greater control of their goaltenders. I hate to say it but goalies in no way should be taking 2-3 shuffles to get across their net. A good goalie can shuffle or t-push all around the crease in one stroke. A lot of times, if you move around the crease with your goalie, he will always shuffle--he never t-pushes. And if you skate to the top left corner of the crease and try to shuffle laterally across to the right top corner, it takes him way longer than it should in real life to get there. Why is this? I'm 21 years old and barely played US JV hockey but I can shuffle that distance way faster than Henrik Lundqvist can in this game. I wouldn't even come CLOSE to even playing at the major junior level, yet I am a better skater than every single goalie in this hockey game. There's something seriously, seriously wrong with that, and if EA wants to make both human goalies AND cpu goalies more effective, they need to fix the serious mobility issues that goalies in this series are greatly hindered by.
Goaltending is the most important position in hockey--so why is EA wasting their time with crappy improvements that barely touch the core of the position? 2k10 goalies both lived and died by their increased mobility--on the one hand, the way they moved laterally and vertically was phenomenal. On the other hand, they quickly became too out of control, because, well, there was no control. EA makes goaltending in this game way more complicated than it needs to be. The L1/LB button that is supposed to slow down goalie movement isn't a fix at all because goalie movement is already messed up enough as it is. In no way will I ever need to move 3 quarters of an inch to my left or right to face a shot--because the width of my body, the reach of my gloves, and the flare of my pads, should always allow me to cover much more net than I am actually taking up when I am in my ready stance. EA needs to increase goaltending mobility without going too Marc-Andre Fleury-like like 2k10 did.
Once we see realistic goalie skating I am willing to bet that 99% of the lame glitch goals we see online and 99% of the terrible AI goaltending we see in our offline games is gone. The EA goalies DON'T need an AI enhancement. Well, they do, that's just not the priority. What they REALLY need is a SKATING enhancement, as Rogie Vachon basically said.
PS: I haven't read this whole thread yet so sorry if things have already been resolved/said in my post.
The problem for me, at least, with NHL's goalie mode has been that the defensive and offensive AI is terrible. Seriously--no amount of sliders can make playing goalie fun. In NHL 09 goalie mode was amazingly fun because the sliders actually worked well in goalie mode when tweaked with. But in NHL 10 when they introduced a crapton more sliders, the sliders seem to all be completely ineffective when it comes to goalie mode.
I agree with Rogie about making the leaning feature part of the Left stick, though--that was just dumb, ea. Also, leaning doesn't do anything in real life anyways. Goalies who cheat on things like a 2-on-1 don't cheat by leaning...they cheat by positioning themselves conservatively enough in the crease so that they can get over quickly, usually by SHUFFLING, to stop the incoming one-timer.
So RealmK in the early pages of this thread was complaining about goalie movement not mattering--it 110% matters. If EA fixed goalie movement and positioning the gameplay would be so much better. Anyone who plays or knows anything about hockey knows that goalies have to be the 'best' skaters on the team. This doesn't mean the fastest--but in terms of lateral agility, they need to have the quickest short-distance burst speed. If EA took the mechanics that they're using for the "burst" speed that they've been constantly advertising on their forwards and put it on goalies, cross-creases and whatnot would never happen.
A goalie's ability to read the play and position himself accordingly by using his skating abilities is key to his game. The only thing that EA needs to do to fix goaltending AI is fix those two things--full-ice vision and reactionary skating--to make flawless goaltending.
Furthermore, playing as a goalie in this game will always be terrible as long as we cannot see directly out of the eyes of the human goalie, or at the very least, when necessary see THROUGH the human goalie. I cannot tell you how many times I have made a save, only to give up a rebound and be practically unable to see the puck in time to react to it because my controlled goalie is obstructing my vision.
What EA needs to do to seriously improve human goaltending is the following:
1. Make sliders actually make sense. In no scenario whatsoever should raising the 'pass interception' slider raise shot totals. That's not how sliders are supposed to work. If users for the 4th year in a row are complaining about shot totals, why not make a 'shot frequency' slider? One of the really good things I liked about NHL 2k10 were the sliders. That slider set up was FANTASTIC, and if you fiddled around with it enough you could give yourself an INCREDIBLY realistic set up that was a lot of fun to play. EA has never had that because they waste time with gimmicks such as a dynamic contact physics engine that doesn't even work in the first place.
2. Allow users playing as goalies to see THROUGH the goaltender during select situations to allow them to see and react to loose pucks directly in front of their controlled goalie. This is huge. A crap ton of goals scored on me both offline and online are when the puck is played close into the net, but if I can't see the puck, I can't react. I've played goalie all of my life--it is really not that hard to stop a one-timer if you're positioned deep enough in your net. But if you can't track the one-time pass all the way from the sender to the receiver, you lose your ability to position yourself according to the incoming shot, and will consistently allow goals.
3. Allow users greater control of their goaltenders. I hate to say it but goalies in no way should be taking 2-3 shuffles to get across their net. A good goalie can shuffle or t-push all around the crease in one stroke. A lot of times, if you move around the crease with your goalie, he will always shuffle--he never t-pushes. And if you skate to the top left corner of the crease and try to shuffle laterally across to the right top corner, it takes him way longer than it should in real life to get there. Why is this? I'm 21 years old and barely played US JV hockey but I can shuffle that distance way faster than Henrik Lundqvist can in this game. I wouldn't even come CLOSE to even playing at the major junior level, yet I am a better skater than every single goalie in this hockey game. There's something seriously, seriously wrong with that, and if EA wants to make both human goalies AND cpu goalies more effective, they need to fix the serious mobility issues that goalies in this series are greatly hindered by.
Goaltending is the most important position in hockey--so why is EA wasting their time with crappy improvements that barely touch the core of the position? 2k10 goalies both lived and died by their increased mobility--on the one hand, the way they moved laterally and vertically was phenomenal. On the other hand, they quickly became too out of control, because, well, there was no control. EA makes goaltending in this game way more complicated than it needs to be. The L1/LB button that is supposed to slow down goalie movement isn't a fix at all because goalie movement is already messed up enough as it is. In no way will I ever need to move 3 quarters of an inch to my left or right to face a shot--because the width of my body, the reach of my gloves, and the flare of my pads, should always allow me to cover much more net than I am actually taking up when I am in my ready stance. EA needs to increase goaltending mobility without going too Marc-Andre Fleury-like like 2k10 did.
Once we see realistic goalie skating I am willing to bet that 99% of the lame glitch goals we see online and 99% of the terrible AI goaltending we see in our offline games is gone. The EA goalies DON'T need an AI enhancement. Well, they do, that's just not the priority. What they REALLY need is a SKATING enhancement, as Rogie Vachon basically said.
PS: I haven't read this whole thread yet so sorry if things have already been resolved/said in my post.
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# 23
jesushaxyou @ 07/02/12 05:09 PM
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Just to show how bad 2k8 blows away NHL 12 in goaltending movement lets just take a look at it from video perspective. I'm just doing this so people can understand the difference in how a game from 2k8 is light years ahead of a game in the year 2012 with goaltending. I shouldn't turn this into a comparison thread but for the sake of the topic I'm going to show it because it's just amazing how opposite the two are.
Here is the video of NHL 12. Backstrom just absolutely warps across the crease while he's already in the splits on the left post. Should never ever ever happen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfDWy...feature=relmfu
Now let's take a look at NHL 2k8. Go to the 5:03 mark and look at how Gerber goes down on a shot that ends up getting blocked, but then plants his foot into the ice and he uses his MOMENTUM to slide over realistically to make a great save to his left. It's unbelievable looking. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT3yF...eature=related
I can only imagine if the NHL crew just even remotely added the movement like this in. Hell the goaltending graphics are unbelievable in this game and have been since 07. 100 X better than 2k8, but movement and saves are much bigger than the graphics IMO. It is just unbelievable how different the two games are goaltending wise.
Once again I'm sorry for comparing the two games but it is mainly for people that were a little confused or didn't know about how bad the movement of goaltending really is in the NHL series. Some of you do know that, but to me I just believe it's unacceptable that goalies still move basically the exact same way since NHL 07. Most important position in sports bar none, and they haven't gotten any true love since possibly the upcoming NHL 13.
Here is the video of NHL 12. Backstrom just absolutely warps across the crease while he's already in the splits on the left post. Should never ever ever happen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfDWy...feature=relmfu
Now let's take a look at NHL 2k8. Go to the 5:03 mark and look at how Gerber goes down on a shot that ends up getting blocked, but then plants his foot into the ice and he uses his MOMENTUM to slide over realistically to make a great save to his left. It's unbelievable looking. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT3yF...eature=related
I can only imagine if the NHL crew just even remotely added the movement like this in. Hell the goaltending graphics are unbelievable in this game and have been since 07. 100 X better than 2k8, but movement and saves are much bigger than the graphics IMO. It is just unbelievable how different the two games are goaltending wise.
Once again I'm sorry for comparing the two games but it is mainly for people that were a little confused or didn't know about how bad the movement of goaltending really is in the NHL series. Some of you do know that, but to me I just believe it's unacceptable that goalies still move basically the exact same way since NHL 07. Most important position in sports bar none, and they haven't gotten any true love since possibly the upcoming NHL 13.
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That being said, I actually think that EA's goalie animations are superior--the problem is that they aren't FLUID.
In the 5:03 example you showed us, Gerber is in the middle of making a butterfly-slide blocker extension save when he stops in the MIDDLE of his animation and turns the other way to make a butterfly-slide trapper extension save.
In EA, the goalie animations don't work like that. If a goalie begins an animation he HAS TO FULLY FINISH IT before he can do ANYTHING else. That's why people have been having so many problems with dumb goalie AI where it looks like a routine reactionary save but the goalie somehow magically screws up and lets in an easy goal--because he's stuck in the middle of completing a different animation.
NHL 2k8 and NHL 2k10 had PHENOMENAL animations, not just from a goalie's game but also from a player's game. Getting awesome, real, fluid, lifelike animations is the key to making a really authentic looking AND authentic feeling sports game. Look at a game like NBA 2k12, and look at all of the incredibly smooth, fluid, and realistic-looking animations that game has got. Everything that a player does in regards to his movements looks dead-on to the way it does in real life.
Even with this year's game, NHL 13, EA is really just advertising a new animation system. The only difference between skating in NHL 12 and NHL 13 is that in NHL 13, players are going to LOOK like they are skating a lot harder--which all add to the authentic aesthetic representation as well as the authentic feel of the game. I've barely been able to play the EA NHL series because the skating feels so clunky and slow--even when it's not--just because the players look so upright and rigid and downright clunky.
Fluid, realistic animations are a huge part of sports games these days. I think that EA has a lot of realistic looking animations in their goalie game--they're just not fluid--which is a big part of making the animations look and feel even more realistic.
# 26
ComaFaction @ 07/02/12 08:06 PM
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I will give EA props when there is props to be given. Right now I won't give EA a lick of props in the goaltending category because I do not like any part of the goalies besides the graphical look of them. I would love to be giving props to them but that's not going to happen on the goalie side yet. I'm pointing out these flaws because they are extremely major flaws in this game. It shouldn't be overlooked considering the movement of goalies is the most fundamental aspect of goaltending.
Also I never ever liked 2k hockey games until I got sick of the NHL series last year. Once I finally opened up my mind and tried 2k8 and 2k10 I finally saw the good in those games, that's why I am giving them praise. NHL feels way better than 2k but 2k does a lot of things correctly that EA doesn't. One of them definitely being goaltending.
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Tweaking goalies is so small in the grand scheme of the problem with this series. No matter what you do to the goalies, people are going to find the highest % shots (varies between 4-6 each year) and constantly go for them over and over and over. Remember the hook shot? Wrap around? Slap pass? Cross crease 1 timers? Breakaways where you'd score 90% of the time by taking a slap shot low glove side from 5 feet in front of the goalie? Then the simple forehand/backhand/forehand that worked on breakaways every time? The problem isn't goalie animations it's goalie AI. I play people all the time that do NOTHING except skate in circles until they can get down low and do a one-timer. Goalie animations are going to help there? No.
They need to fight the cheese and the visual glitches every year, and the they aren't winning that battle either. A slapshot with a red tail stops on a dime because of a broken stick. People doing 1 timers from a bad pass, where they are full extension with 1 hand on the stick, and blast it perfectly roofed over the goalies shoulder. How many times are you sitting there WAITING to intercept a pass, and it still just goes right by with no attempt. How many times do you lift stick only to have the other player retain control?
I also like to play on a locked position and the AI for the computer is horrible. It doesn't know if you're down by 1 with 20 seconds left, you retain possession and don't dump the puck. Or maybe how, even when being in perfect position for a pass, will take an opponent head on and lose the puck for no reason when there is myself, or another cpu player wide open waiting for a pass. Or the goalie playing the puck with the other team closing in, but he just stands there all casual and lets them poke check it away/in the net. OR he will just throw it over the boards for a penalty.
The problem here is that the game has actually regressed. There are never really any improvements. Some animations (which just make more visual glitches), and more broken promises. They actually removed the feature where you could set your roster offline and use it online. What game REMOVES features like that?
Goalie animations would fix like 5% of all the problems in this game. MAybe they finally did this, but they need to stop doing the gimmicks of goalie fights and hip checks, and fix and improve what they already have. If they paid attention to defail and tried to make the "most realistic spots game" rather than "the only hockey game", it would be a much better game. There's bugs and exploits that have been in the game for 6+ years and that should just be an embarassment to the studio.
They need to fight the cheese and the visual glitches every year, and the they aren't winning that battle either. A slapshot with a red tail stops on a dime because of a broken stick. People doing 1 timers from a bad pass, where they are full extension with 1 hand on the stick, and blast it perfectly roofed over the goalies shoulder. How many times are you sitting there WAITING to intercept a pass, and it still just goes right by with no attempt. How many times do you lift stick only to have the other player retain control?
I also like to play on a locked position and the AI for the computer is horrible. It doesn't know if you're down by 1 with 20 seconds left, you retain possession and don't dump the puck. Or maybe how, even when being in perfect position for a pass, will take an opponent head on and lose the puck for no reason when there is myself, or another cpu player wide open waiting for a pass. Or the goalie playing the puck with the other team closing in, but he just stands there all casual and lets them poke check it away/in the net. OR he will just throw it over the boards for a penalty.
The problem here is that the game has actually regressed. There are never really any improvements. Some animations (which just make more visual glitches), and more broken promises. They actually removed the feature where you could set your roster offline and use it online. What game REMOVES features like that?
Goalie animations would fix like 5% of all the problems in this game. MAybe they finally did this, but they need to stop doing the gimmicks of goalie fights and hip checks, and fix and improve what they already have. If they paid attention to defail and tried to make the "most realistic spots game" rather than "the only hockey game", it would be a much better game. There's bugs and exploits that have been in the game for 6+ years and that should just be an embarassment to the studio.
I think all the guy was trying to say is he would like the goalies to play more true to life. And for that i totally agree. 2k8 was light years ahead because of the physics and goalies actually using their momentum for better or worse. in the end the saves turned out to be organic and like i said earlier true to life. Ifyou appreciate hockey and not the virtual version why wouldnt you want goalies in EA to actually play like their real life counter parts. I just dont understand why you guys are arguing otherwise.
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