03:02 PM - February 25, 2011 by Steve_OS
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Check out the entire interview, right here.
Madden 12 News Post
03:02 PM - February 25, 2011 by Steve_OSCheck out the entire interview, right here.
Madden NFL 12 Videos
Member Comments
I don't really like to bash guys on there job but they need to bring some actual guys in there who played the game to help with the ratings because Donny Moore in my opinion isn't getting it done.. I'm always tweaking a bunch of players on every team before I start my offline franchise.. The way he has his system set up is garbage..
# 22
adembroski @ 02/26/11 09:55 PM
That whole interview, in which Donny explains the use of multiple sources, including multiple scouting agencies and actual combine numbers, he mentions starting with a template based on a commonly used aspect of scouting (the player comparison) and that's what you all feel the need to focus on?
You'd think he said "I just take the player closest and use the same ratings and drop his awareness".
You'd think he said "I just take the player closest and use the same ratings and drop his awareness".
# 23
at23steelers @ 02/26/11 10:47 PM
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# 24
sniperhare @ 02/27/11 12:23 AM
They should hide the ratings. They could more easily adjust what the players stats are because they could adjust the ratings week by week until the Madden players can replicate their NFL counterparts.
This will make it so that you resign players based on production (like they do in the NFL) instead of the player somehow knowing "I'm a 85 OVR player, pay me like that even if I've rode the pine for two years."
Bring back the Head Coach system that has player adjusted ratings based on the offensive or defensive scheme. Have your scouting department find players who would fit your needs or schemes. That would be a great weekly update in franchise.
You get a message from your GM/Head of scouting that details players in the upcoming draft. You could also "check the news" and watch clips on NFL Network (use the license EA) of upcoming players. But if you only rely on hype it may lead you to drafting the wrong player.
This will make it so that you resign players based on production (like they do in the NFL) instead of the player somehow knowing "I'm a 85 OVR player, pay me like that even if I've rode the pine for two years."
Bring back the Head Coach system that has player adjusted ratings based on the offensive or defensive scheme. Have your scouting department find players who would fit your needs or schemes. That would be a great weekly update in franchise.
You get a message from your GM/Head of scouting that details players in the upcoming draft. You could also "check the news" and watch clips on NFL Network (use the license EA) of upcoming players. But if you only rely on hype it may lead you to drafting the wrong player.
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And they should really try and make a different OVR formula for 3-4 DEs... yeah it's great that my OLB is really fast and has high Finesse Moves, but that doesn't really help him much when his job is pushing around guards, binding blockers and stopping the run so don't tell me he's a 90+ OVR DE while my 75 OVR player who's an actual DE is actually better suited for the job.
# 26
huskerwr38 @ 02/27/11 12:38 AM
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They should hide ratings that matter to position. How can you determine a Dlinemen's Throw Acc or a QB's Cov or Catch. You can tell that every player is started from the same Template to start off with. Then they use Current Players Template for New Players with the same gamestyle.
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Not sure about the other guys, but the above was the highlight of DCEBB2001's post for me...
AJ, you've participated in his thread on this topic and how it relates to the site he's currently updating...
IMHO, it's clear that he's got a more "fleshed out / thought out" approach to how the ratings should be done than anything Donny Moore had to say in this article...
All I (or anyone else can go by) it's what is said and relayed to the public and this missve from that department at EA was underwhelming, at best...
You obviously have a different take on it because you're there, but if I'm picking a ratings system based on what I've read on this forum, I'm going with Dan's...
Hopefully, a lively discourse will inspire everybody to "raise their game" where this is concerned...
That is, I believe, the "best case scenario" upshot of this type of discussion...
Happy gaming, gents!
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My reply to this would be again, what use is this to gamers when whatever method used will result in the same "Gameplay Impact" as it did since release on Next-Gen?
What purpose is knowing what resources EA draws it's info to dictate player ratings when it's proven fact that outside of the SPEED/Thow Power ratings, no other ratings shows a difference during actual Gameplay.
Set something at 12 then another at 99 and you'll get, "NOTHING"!!!
They all react the same until a Slider Adjustment is done to Dumb-Down the AI causing some weird reaction during gameplay.
Again, why is it not to early to release this kind of stuff, but actual meaningful information about the issues that have plagued this game for years (that the community have spent hours tweaking/testing to give feedback to improve) must be Hush-Hush?
What gamers are trying to say is that it's the same OLD SYSTEM used, not the ratings given to a player that's the problem.
Madden is FAR behind were it should be by now and the Community has supported EA for a long time while little has change.
And this is how someone from the team responds to that Community?
Wow! I was not expecting my one post to receive the applause that it did. Thanks for that guys!
But the main thing is that the guys at EA don't really know what they are doing if they are rating players like this. That is the primary problem I have with them; they don't know how to use the data they get properly in determining player ratings. They may have all this scouting data, but they seem to fail to use it properly. Why? Because they don't seem to be football guys. They may be OK at developing games, but have they ever played under center? Taken a snap? Tackled a 200lb RB head on? Most likely not at any level of significance. Not to toot my own horn here but I have played at every level except the professional one as a player and coach. I know what it takes to separate the good players from bad ones, which is why I incorporated that knowledge into the ratings I do at FBG. Think of it as Football Ratings done by a Football Coach/Player. It doesn't hurt that I am a stats freak either because knowing how to manipulate data is also clutch. Regardless, it seems like the guys at EA could do a better job with more money and their professional jobs on the line.
But the main thing is that the guys at EA don't really know what they are doing if they are rating players like this. That is the primary problem I have with them; they don't know how to use the data they get properly in determining player ratings. They may have all this scouting data, but they seem to fail to use it properly. Why? Because they don't seem to be football guys. They may be OK at developing games, but have they ever played under center? Taken a snap? Tackled a 200lb RB head on? Most likely not at any level of significance. Not to toot my own horn here but I have played at every level except the professional one as a player and coach. I know what it takes to separate the good players from bad ones, which is why I incorporated that knowledge into the ratings I do at FBG. Think of it as Football Ratings done by a Football Coach/Player. It doesn't hurt that I am a stats freak either because knowing how to manipulate data is also clutch. Regardless, it seems like the guys at EA could do a better job with more money and their professional jobs on the line.
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Great post.
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Last year, I think the Titans OC or Line coach helped implement the run blocking. They converse with Madden throughout the year and various coaches on each team as well.
I think what Adembroski was trying to say it's hard to criticize a 4 question interview without knowing what Donnie does in a 10 plus hr. day.
I feel that 4 question interview barely scratched the surface and we were just fed a few bread crumbs is the way I see it.
Also, we have a writer in our paper that is very thorough on the Packers. He just did a draft guide on projections. Top 15 gone when the Packers pick, next 13, 50-50 chance and the next 30 left.
In most of the ratings, he talks to scouts and they will say, this player is better than Tebow, Ingram is similar to Ahman Green, etc...... So, if scouts do it, why can't Donnie and EA do it? I'm confused on that part. They may not turn out like Ahman Green or Tebow, so, then, they get adjusted down the line. ????
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So no, it's definitely not a "proven fact" that none of these ratings matter. Are they implemented poorly, especially in aspects like OLine play? Definitely. But that doesn't mean all of them don't matter.
While this is an interesting discussion about Tiburons (not EAs) approach towards player ratings, I don't feel it'll amount to anything other than chatter. Ratings have become a HUGE part of Madden's marketing and keeps the game in the gamers minds throughout the season. Madden can never have APF 2k8-style 'ratings/abilities' because then they'd lose the weekly updates, which helps feed the marketing machine.
There are many valid points in this thread and Dan's work and insight with the ratings should be applauded, but as long as the underlying ratings system (and gameplay) is as flawed as it is, then the game will still play like the arcade football game we've come to know.
As pointed out by many some ratings have little to no effect. Players play the same, because everything seems to be build up around one model. lofeazy mentioned player tendencies in soccer video games and while they are far from perfect, it makes the players feel more individual and unique - much like the abilities system of APF 2k8. None of the soccer games, however, have a proper AI system that recognizes those tendencies from teammates yet. Currently AI teammates don't recognize the abilities and strengths of their fellow teammates, but act like 11 individuals on the field instead.
While Tiburons current approach with 49-50 individual rating to separate players from each other might look logical and functional on paper, it translates into very poor gameplay in the actual game. If you put Randy Moss and Wes Welker next to each other and make them run identical routes, you'd think you were watching a football equivalent of synchronized swimming. Players appear to be build around one model and their body size is scaled without any effect.
I personally prefer APF 2k8's 'ratings' model because of its simplicity, but of the ratings systems I've tried, I have a sweet spot for FIFA 11's for four reasons:
There are many valid points in this thread and Dan's work and insight with the ratings should be applauded, but as long as the underlying ratings system (and gameplay) is as flawed as it is, then the game will still play like the arcade football game we've come to know.
As pointed out by many some ratings have little to no effect. Players play the same, because everything seems to be build up around one model. lofeazy mentioned player tendencies in soccer video games and while they are far from perfect, it makes the players feel more individual and unique - much like the abilities system of APF 2k8. None of the soccer games, however, have a proper AI system that recognizes those tendencies from teammates yet. Currently AI teammates don't recognize the abilities and strengths of their fellow teammates, but act like 11 individuals on the field instead.
While Tiburons current approach with 49-50 individual rating to separate players from each other might look logical and functional on paper, it translates into very poor gameplay in the actual game. If you put Randy Moss and Wes Welker next to each other and make them run identical routes, you'd think you were watching a football equivalent of synchronized swimming. Players appear to be build around one model and their body size is scaled without any effect.
I personally prefer APF 2k8's 'ratings' model because of its simplicity, but of the ratings systems I've tried, I have a sweet spot for FIFA 11's for four reasons:
- Firstly, because height and weight matter just as much as ratings (they have a locomotion engine that allows for different body types) meaning that two players with identical ratings but different height and weight won't play the same.
- Secondly, because I feel ratings are scaled with respect for the game and not for marketing purposes (highest OVR is 90 and highest individual rating is 96).
- Thirdly, because the ratings that the game shipped with are still excellent to play with to this day.
- And lastly, because you can compete with a 'mediocre' team if you combine complementary players that fit each other and your strategy/playing style instead of just the best rated.
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He will probably will have 95+ acc.
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Plus, there is nothing realistic about having ZERO information about a player's raw physical skills at the absolute minimum not to mention teams at least have their opinion on a guy's technique, etc.
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But I like it.
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I just got a complete OLine in a single draft consisting of 5 rookies with starting OVR between 82 and 88, all but one with A potential (the 85 OVR LT is "only" B potential) and I did it with 3 4th and 2 5th round picks, I did scout but I wouldn't even have needed that, it was so painfully obvious from the skill hex that they were monstrous players. That's just wrong, yes sometimes there may be players in the later rounds that develop into beasts, but not like that, and they shouldn't be THAT easy to pick out.
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Those things just don't translate. You don't need tendencies to make technique differences show in a lot of cases. You just need to make difference in technique skill show up, imo.
To me, tendencies would be more impacting style/decision making in "ambiguous" situations. For example, a defender is about to make a tackle - does he wrap and tackle or does he try for the knockout shot, or does he focus mostly on trying to strip the ball? That, imo, would be something impacted by tendencies - effectiveness by ratings.
For a QB, if he scrambles, does he just try to buy time, using his quickness in the pocket to escape and extend plays and bait defenders into approaching him (letting WR uncover downfield), or does he scramble, see daylight, and take off upfield, maybe bypassing a WR coming free over the top to try to make the play himself?
An RB is about to get contacted - does he try to evade (and how? Juke, spin, cut, quick change in speed, change angle, etc) or does he invite contact and try to break through (and how? stiff arm, lower shoulder, push aside the defender, slight sidestep and then lower shoulder to try for better contact angle, etc)
Things like that would be areas I could see tendencies. That way two scrambling, fast QBs, wouldn't just play like 2 Michael Vicks, etc.
Tendencies like this could be good coaching influences. Let's say you draft a HB who probably should be more of a power runner, but he's trying to juke and cut too much. You could bring in a coach that teaches downhill running and perhaps start to change this kid's tendency towards his strength (what his ratings would dictate) and see his performance improve.
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